In the end, it is up to me as the customer to determine what is best for my situation. While I have enjoyed Logos, LN, Proclaim, etc., in the end FaithLife will determine what they need to charge. I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc.
I appreciate what FaithLife has done. They've given us a 9 month warning. Given us more than what they promised for LN, and have even offered a coupon.
I think most other companies would have put out an email that said, "We regret that we will no longer be offering product X. We will honor your subscription, but once it is up, here are your new options."
I think it would be different if a comparable online service (Amazon Prime or Netflix) did this. If an online service cancels their whole service, gives it a new name, then offers the same service back to their users at twice the price, I have a sense many, many customers would have plenty of complaints and suggestions for the company. And rightly so.
It certainly is FL's decision to make. But, paying customers have every expectation that they will be treated fairly by that company. Bob can do what he wants. But, he should not be surprised if customers feel treated badly, or even like they've been tricked by this move.
Logos Now and Faithlife Connect: The Why
Background Facts
(This is context, not the explanation for Faithlife Connect; the explanation follows.)
The software world is moving to subscription products accessed from any device anywhere via the cloud.
If we were to start new today, we would probably be a subscription-only product.
New users are asking for, and expect, a subscription offering.
Existing users are accustomed, and often prefer, to pay once and 'own' the software. They expect that upgrades will need to be purchased every other year or so.
Logos Bible Software has historically been priced in such a way that our bills are paid by book purchases; we've never charged enough for 'software' or 'features' to actually cover our costs.
We wouldn't do it that way if we were starting from scratch today, but that's where we are based on history and user expectations.
Many (but thankfully not all) of our "best customers" have built 'large enough for now' libraries, and are purchasing fewer ebooks, yet continue to want new features, and (as everyone adapts to the continual upgrade model of apps, subscription software, etc.,) they _expect_ new features more often, and at lower and lower (or no!) cost.
As previously noted, we've never charged enough for our software to cover our costs; ebook purchases have to cover book production costs, royalties, AND our non-trivial software development and other costs.
At the same time, pricing on other ebook (and content) platforms with different cost structures and pricing models are creating pressure to reduce the price of ebooks, lowering the revenue that we (unlike the competitors) use to subsidize our development costs.
What Logos Now Attempted
Logos Cloud was our plan for a subscription-only product, for new customers who wanted it. It was an alternative to transactional purchase, which we still offered. (We underestimated how many people would be confused that it wasn't a primarily inside-the-web-browser experience, which only now works well.)
Logos Now was a hybrid offering, essentially a kind of 'dynamic price' for people who had made a transactional investment, allowing them to get Logos Cloud without paying full price, since they already had lots of books and a significant investment.
How Logos Now Failed
Access to new features early, as they were released, was just a little part of what we imagined Logos Now would be, which we hoped would make it more attractive to transaction users, helping them transition to a subscription world.
It worked too well, and the tail began to wag the dog. Logos Cloud didn't mature quickly enough (because it needed a stronger web app, which wasn't yet there) and Logos Now's 'new features every six weeks started to feel like its primary benefit.
New customers, who should have only needed to choose between "Buy" or "Subscribe" were regularly being sent into a very confusing, and frustrating, pitch to both buy AND subscribe. Pure subscription wasn't attractive enough (without larger libraries and a pure-web solution), but just buying and owning felt 'left out' because Logos Now offered 'new stuff without the wait.'
Worse, as the tail wagged the dog, Logos Now subscribers (who turned out to vastly outnumber Logos Cloud subscribers) began seeing the product's entire value as the regular release of new features. (Which was not the original intention.)
And trying to make a new feature every six weeks leads to smaller, less significant features just to 'check the box'. It hurts our ability to dedicate team energy to bigger features and changes that might take months to develop, but which deliver more value.
Planning for the Future
The old and new models are less compatible than we'd hoped, and the user needs are different. We tried to make a hybrid model, and it just frustrated and confused people. Moreover, hybrid models mess up business models, contracts, etc.
We need a true 'no purchase necessary, pure subscription' product. That's Faithlife Connect, and it's a great value that offers Logos Bible Software via the web (and mobile, and even download if you want), as well as Faithlife TV, Courses, and more.
We also need to support the pure transactional model for people who want to 'buy it, own it, and not have to pay again.' That's what we've always offered, and what we plan to continue to offer.
We need to remove the 'purchase, own, and yet you still need to subscribe to get the coolest/latest/best' model which confused everyone and particularly frustrated new customers. In addition to creating unrealistic expectations for exciting new features every six weeks. (Because, tying back to the facts above, pricing it just for new features doesn't cover the cost to create them, and the kind of features we can ship every six weeks may have diminishing utility over time.)
No Harm Was Done
Behind all the smoke, there's a simple fact being obscured: Nobody lost anything with this week's announcement. We didn't kill Logos Now yet, we are delivering everything we promised, we are honoring everyone's subscription and delivering what was promised in it AND MORE.
We're just letting you know that around nine months from now we will no longer be offering Logos Now in the existing price and configuration. That's a lot of advance notice, and more than many companies give when they change product offerings.
Wait, isn't this harm?
"But I got new features for $X/month, and now it'll cost more!"
Kinda, but not really. Because we weren't going to be able to keep up the pace of high quality, high value new features on such a regular schedule. We want to do the best thing for the product -- whether that's a tiny feature, a massive big new feature, or a lot of invisible work on speed and stability -- without having to check a 'cool new feature' box every six weeks. So that part of Logos Now was fading out anyway.
"But I passed up purchasing the feature set, and now I'll lose it if I don't double my monthly subscription cost!"
We have tried to address every case of this through credits to help you purchase the feature set, and thus lock in the new features even if you cease subscribing. It was our intention that every Logos Now user who'd chosen to 'upgrade via Logos Now instead of purchase' have the option to re-make that decision, choosing purchase-for-ownership, with the help of a credit.
"You're punishing your best customers!"
No. We've done detailed analysis of what people invested in transactional purchase, as well as what they spent over the life-time of their Logos Now spend, and have emailed credit (or even free Faithlife Connect subscriptions) to ensure we're taking care of people.
"You didn't take care of me!"
If you didn't get an email, or think we somehow let you down, contact us. We'll make it right.
"Is this all about raising prices?"
Yes and no. Mostly no.
We have extensive data (25 years!) on what people spend on average to start with Logos Bible Software, and what they spend each year to grow their library, upgrade, etc. We have also built a business with hundreds of employees serving these thousands of customers and we know what it costs to provide that service.
Faithlife Connect is designed to be a great value for users, and a sustainable business for us. Its value is subscription access to Logos Bible Software tools, content, video, courses, and more. Yes, that product (like all web-based subscription products) will be continually updated -- often quietly and with little fanfare. But 'new features every six weeks' is not its value proposition: the value is the tools and content by subscription, with no large up-front cost.
Logos Bible Software for purchase continues to be what it was: something you can buy and never pay for again, or buy and add books and occasional upgrades to.
You can also choose to do both, and build your own hybrid either way. Subscribers can buy specific books; purchasers can choose to subscribe for the extra content and tools, and the _incidental, not primary_ side effect of some new stuff sooner.
I'm going to say that again, because it's important: "new features sooner" isn't the primary value of Faithlife Connect.
So yes, since everything in Logos Now is now in Faithlife Connect (and more, of course), and since Logos Now is no longer sold separately, you could argue that we raised the price of Logos Now.
But, since Logos Now's old 'primary value' was fading away, it's more like we are retiring Logos Now and offering a new subscription product, which you may not want, but which new users may value and consider a great deal. And we're taking care of you by giving nine months of notice, letting you 'rewind' to a purchase-the-new-features-and-never-lose-them model, or, if you see the value in Faithlife Connect and its extra content/tools, transition to the new subscription product.
“I am not going to renew.”
It may be that you don’t value the other components of Faithlife Connect, and simply want to stay up to date with new versions of Logos Bible Software. In that case, you may not want to subscribe to Connect, and simply stay with the existing upgrade model. We hope to keep adding value to Connect in order to make it a smart move for everyone, even if they have already invested in Logos Bible Software, but that’s an individual decision based on what’s important to you.
My analogy attempt:
You subscribed to a weekly paper news magazine for $100 / year. They announce a new product that is a subscriber-only news website with daily updates, plus a monthly paper magazine, plus a gym membership, for $200 / year. Every present subscriber will get the new monthly magazine and the gym membership now, and the weekly paper news magazine will continue through the end of your paid subscription, but then you'll have to pay the higher price or cancel.
Is this sad? Maybe, if what you loved was a weekly paper news magazine for $100, and if you don't want to read online daily or go to the gym.
Are you being cheated? Not if they deliver your paid subscription through its term. And you're getting more than promised for the remainder of your term.
Is this raising the price of the news? Yes and no, but really it's just offering a different product configuration at a different price point.
Shouldn't they offer the original deal too? Things change, and businesses need to offer products that are financially sustainable and that work in the market.
Technology changes, by definition; those changes aren’t always just about the tech, though. We are all navigating a major change from buy to subscribe in lots of businesses. It’s here now all over the web, and it’s rolling up all the older software business models, and then it’s coming for everything else -- maybe in surprising ways. (Most of us probably won’t buy cars in ten years, but will subscribe to transportation services.)
We’re doing the best to navigate these changes at Faithlife while continuing to serve you well. We understand that every change has the potential to frustrate someone’s plans or expectations, and we’re trying to do it as gently and wisely as we can. Sometimes we make mistakes, or launch things that don’t turn out the way we plan, and sometimes we’ve got to take another shot at it.
I’m sorry when that frustrates you, and promise that we will continue to try and do right by every user, even if we have to address each user’s situation specifically. We will also continue to listen to your feedback; it is the most important thing in helping us make decisions.
Thanks for letting us know what you think, even if you're unhappy.
Comments
- Rather than creating features and then putting them on the shelf until the next major release (up to 2 years), this allowed Logos to avoid creating bugs in the code while working on newer features. This in turn minimizes the effort for managing code and beta testing for the next major release.
- The discipline of the 6 week cycle cycle has resulted in a marked decrease in bugs. Yes, there are a few and, yes, there is still a backlog of long-standing bugs but all-in-all we are getting much more polished releases.
- Logos 7 Basic Library and Logos Cloud Basic in Faithlife Connect Basic
- Logos 7 Starter Library and Logos Cloud Starter in Faithlife Connect Starter
- Logos 7 Bronze Library and Logos Cloud Essentials in Faithlife Connect Essentials
- Logos 7 Silver Library and Logos Cloud Standard in Faithlife Connect Standard
- Logos 7 Gold Library and Logos Cloud Plus in Faithlife Connect Plus
- Logos 7 Platinum Library and Logos Cloud Professional in Faithlife Connect Professional
- Logos 7 Diamond Library and Logos Cloud Premium in Faithlife Connect Premium
- Logos 7 Portfolio Library and Logos Cloud Ultimate in Faithlife Connect Ultimate
- not as feature rich as Logos
- cheaper on lots of resources
- I have too many Logos resources that I would have to replace
- I would have a steep learning curve.
- Don't miss a FREE Book, COUPON, or OFFER! Join the Free Faithlife Books Group
As noted earlier, my weather app ended subscriptions; no warning. Full-screen adverts.
And the angry bees dutifully began a long string of 1-stars, etc. Customers DO pipe up.
Bob has asked us to keep our angry-bee comments in-house (the forum). That’s fair.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
Actually, Netflix did sort of do this when they disconnected the streaming and DVD parts of their offering. To have the same features as before the price doubled. They had that right. And I had the option to discontinue that service.
It makes it much harder though when you have a 5 digit dollar investment in the company. Hard to just walk away and take your business elsewhere.That I think is some of the reaction. We as a long term user base are locked tightly into the service, and we are concerned with the direction and the continually increasing cost. This is especially true when it appears that what matters to me increases substantially in cost, while these increases fund features I have no interest in (and question if those features will ever be self supporting).
Let's not even talk about TV services and their bundling. That is another topic that causes me to lose my Christian testimony.
David, Thank you for you post ... I enjoyed the Grace and Pace of it, after so many frenetic posts of the last couple of days.
That said, whilst I largely agree with you, and many other posters along the way, I am left wondering if there really is another model with which we can compare Logos?
I cannot think of another situation where I have so much invested in the success of a company. If Netflix et. al change ... I can swap with no loss; if Microsoft change, I can swap with little cost; if Adobe move to a subscription model I can ... (oooops already stopped using their software!!!). If Ford asked me to start paying a rental on the car I already own ... then I sell and move on .... BUT Logos is different. It is, at this point for me, a monopoly ... unless Accordance said that they would honour my licenses if I would start purchasing from them ... I am kinda attached to the fortunes of Logos. My investment there is considerably more than anything Ford, GM etc. have ever gotten out of me combined ... and I cannot just walk away to another service provider.
The continual health of Logos is one of the reasons that I subscribed to LN. Most of the 'new features' and data sets are fluff; the previews are a pain cluttering up my library ... the free books are largely PD padding. It is the need for the existence of Logos into the future that largely motivated me; in the same way as when I paid for the Logos for Mac version 1.0 ... it was not really in expectation for a return but in response that software costs ... and I am happy to pay a reasonable amount for their continued service.
That said ... I think that Logos has acted honourably with the vouchers and the advanced notice ... and like you I really wish they could sort out their identity crises! Thank you Bob, Chris and Phil etc. for being in these forums ... thank you for listening ...
2017 15" MBP, iPad Pro
Actually, Netflix did sort of do this when they disconnected the streaming and DVD parts of their offering. To have the same features as before the price doubled. They had that right. And I had the option to discontinue that service.
This is a great example of my point. When Netflix changed from physical service to digital service, they had a serious uproar. But, they offered the same service for the same price to those who wanted it (though they outsourced it). You can still get the physical DVD-only service from them. https://dvd.netflix.com/
What FL is doing is giving us no option. No chance to keep what we've signed up for. Changing the name, doubling the price.
That's what feels so unfair.
I think it would be different if a comparable online service (Amazon Prime or Netflix) did this. If an online service cancels their whole service, gives it a new name, then offers the same service back to their users at twice the price, I have a sense many, many customers would have plenty of complaints and suggestions for the company. And rightly so.
It certainly is FL's decision to make. But, paying customers have every expectation that they will be treated fairly by that company. Bob can do what he wants. But, he should not be surprised if customers feel treated badly, or even like they've been tricked by this move.
Did they cancel their whole service and then offer the same thing? Is it the _same_ product?
Seems like it is a slightly different product. From what I can tell, they are discontinuing Logos Now. Not a name change, but completely discontinuing it. Before FL had Logos Now and Logos Cloud. They've created a third subscription option, FL Connect.
Perhaps they should have simply raised the price for LN. I guess they decided that would have made people mad.
From what I can tell, FL is saying the closest product to LN with similar features is FL Connect Essentials at $108/yr.
I'm not sure FL did a great job of explaining what was happening, but I could be wrong. Looks like FL has
1) Gotten rid of Logos Now completely. It is gone.
2) Rolled Logos Cloud into FaithLife Connect see: https://logoscloud.com/products/138567/logos-cloud-starter
- While the above link says that Logos Cloud is now part of FaithLife Connect, there isn't any way to purchase Logos Cloud separately. So, I wonder if Logos Cloud is effectively gone as well. Makes sense to have one product rather than two (or three).
3) Introduced (?? Not sure if this was a product before or not) FL Connect with has Logos Cloud + FaithLife TV.
Sure, there may be features of LN that people liked and depended on. Sure, FL Connect might cost more and have FL TV that isn't wanted. But, in the end, it seems like to me that FL Connect is a new product and they are discontinuing LN.
It will be interesting to see the outcries cause any changes. Bob seems to want to do right by the customers.
Did they cancel their whole service and then offer the same thing? Is it the _same_ product?
Seems like it is a slightly different product. From what I can tell, they are discontinuing Logos Now. Not a name change, but completely discontinuing it. Before FL had Logos Now and Logos Cloud. They've created a third subscription option, FL Connect.
I would recommend looking at the "before" and "after" on this chart. Before = LN, Middle Column = FC at our current price (with half the features), Essentials = what we have in LN for twice the price.
https://connect.faithlife.com/now-connect-compare
And one correction, the Essentials package is nearly 200/yr. That's twice what LN was.
It makes it much harder though when you have a 5 digit dollar investment in the company. Hard to just walk away and take your business elsewhere.That I think is some of the reaction. We as a long term user base are locked tightly into the service, and we are concerned with the direction and the continually increasing cost. This is especially true when it appears that what matters to me increases substantially in cost, while these increases fund features I have no interest in (and question if those features will ever be self supporting).
Let's not even talk about TV services and their bundling. That is another topic that causes me to lose my Christian testimony.
Danny, I understand. While I haven't invested 5 digits, I am over $5,000 of resources, which, as I understand it, I can continue to use forever. The decision I will make is whether to keep upgrading or not. Do I need the new features? Probably not. While always nice, Logos is a fairly mature product. I do use the web app and will probably have to pony up $200/year to keep it, or purchase the features. It's not that I like it.
I realize that Bob is running FL the best he believes and has statistics, information, etc. that I do not have. Companies make these sort of decisions and I'm left to make my own. Perhaps Bob and FL have run the numbers and decided that having all of the customers who used LN leave was better than continuing the way things were.
I'm sure he hopes that customers don't leave. Yet, there are times when a short-term loss leads to a long-term gain. If it means FL continues, grows, and provides better and better resources and tools, well, I can't say I can fault their decision. They may be wrong. They may be very wrong. As always, time will tell.
Wish all of you a peaceful evening, and a worshipful weekend.
Peace, David.
Did they cancel their whole service and then offer the same thing? Is it the _same_ product?
Seems like it is a slightly different product. From what I can tell, they are discontinuing Logos Now. Not a name change, but completely discontinuing it. Before FL had Logos Now and Logos Cloud. They've created a third subscription option, FL Connect.
I would recommend looking at the "before" and "after" on this chart. Before = LN, Middle Column = FC at our current price (with half the features), Essentials = what we have in LN for twice the price.
https://connect.faithlife.com/now-connect-compareAnd one correction, the Essentials package is nearly 200/yr. That's twice what LN was.
True. What they did was add the LFTV subscription to the mix and (I think) got rid of the feature upgrades.
I believe Bob said one of the challenges with LN was the feature upgrades. I wonder what the reaction would be if they would have simply removed that part of LN and charged the same amount.
Perhaps they should have just doubled the price of LN.
In the end, the only way they wouldn't have had this reaction was to leave everything the way it was. Apparently, they didn't see that as an option. Maybe after a few weeks, they may find another way. After all, the change isn't supposed to take effect for a while.
BUT Logos is different. It is, at this point for me, a monopoly
...which is y I get on their case some. I do not want to be taken for granted; the monopoly can lend itself to that process. We, the consumers, need 2b vigilant.
I really do not know what to think.
The above post explains why there are doing what they are doing.
We have Faithlife selling a product that is better than , in my personal opinion, the competition.
So many people complaining and some even saying we, us, or even all. I for one am glad Faithlife is there and giving us such a product.
They are a business. As a business they have contracts with other companies. The last time I checked the prices on everything is going up. Fuel was a bit cheaper for awhile. My groceries were not. Rent was not, etc. So I am going to have to assume that the prices of their contracts are going up. As with any other company the price the customer pays reflects in what the company has to pay.
They not only have contracts but all of those people to code the software. If they just offered what McDonalds pays I doubt we would have the software we have today. Those people deserve to be paid more than minimum wage.
Straight up if you cannot or don't want to be able to afford their software, stop complaining and/or threatening to go elsewhere. Just go elsewhere. Faithlife charges what they see fit. There are other options out there.
I have been following the posts and I have to say that I have been staying away from posting. All the negative comments just is not right. All the threats just are not right. I really feel sorry for those that have a question because frankly we are not Christians in the sense that we are supposed to be peacemakers. There is very little peace here in the message boards. I will never post a question on these boards, because there is a real good chance that the information will either be not complete, or it will be answered in a negative fashion.
I am like everyone else. I would like to get whatever product as cheap as possible. I am on disability, so I have to, many times, buy a product that is less expensive. I have to cut costs where I can. I will never be able to afford even what I would like to have, let alone all of it. I will purchase what I am able to afford. I thank God that he saw fit that a company like Faithlife should exist.
Thank you Mr. Pritchett for all that you have done for us.
Thank you to all the employees of Faithlife as you all have made Studying the Bible not only much easier but much faster.
I believe Bob said one of the challenges with LN was the feature upgrades. I wonder what the reaction would be if they would have simply removed that part of LN and charged the same amount.
I think the reaction from what has been posted is that it would have been fine. I am another one who forgot that LN included upgrades every 6 months. It was also with me, not an important issue.
What made LN important to me:
1. I could support the development on the software for a price not too high
2. For that support, I would receive upgrades as the build the program towards L8 so when L8 comes out, there are few surprises for me
3. For that support, I would not have as big of a sticker shock when L8 comes out. I would be able to upgrade to L8 cheaper because I had paid a bit over time.
Others could have different reasons for liking LN. There were my reasons.
FLC has too many features for me to use. I can do without all of them. And I am fine with waiting for new features when L8 comes or L9 comes.
You cannot assume people's tones over reading text on a forum.
Many people are concerned and this whole announcement is abrupt. People have invested a lot of money into Logos so that they even exist today. Yes, they make great bible software but Logos Now was advertised as a way for people to have features by renting and now the increase to keep features is going up a $140 a year which is an extreme increase in pricing. Not only that what is offered in the $240 a year is a lot of what people don't want and will have to pay for to continue on something similar. Yes, they have tried to compensate but it is a very dramatic increase in price.
Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus
I will never post a question on these boards, because there is a real good chance that the information will either be not complete, or it will be answered in a negative fashion.
Please do not hesitate to post, say, a how-do-I-do-this question. U will get polite, helpful responses. Reasking will promote the same helpful reply......I ask some silly questions + do get great responses.
Wait a week. Go back to the forums. Look at the how-to questions.
I am another one who forgot that LN included upgrades every 6 months. It was also with me, not an important issue.
Typo: make that 6 weeks. Remember that this had two other effects, both positive.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
Typo: make that 6 weeks.
Thanks MJ for the correction
Bob,
Thanks for being open and discussing the reasons behind all this.
I subscribed to Logos Now, not for the latest features every 6 weeks but just to have all the features that were available in Logos 7 since I didn't upgrade. It was the only financial plausible way I had at the time to have access to some of the latest features.
At first I was frustrated when I seen the email and came here to the forums to see what was going on. Now after reading your explanation, I feel better about it and think what you're doing makes sense, although as a customer I might not like every aspect of it.
Thanks.
Hi Bob,
Thank you for your full disclosure and forthrightness. That is much further and honest than most businesses would care to go with their customer base. I'm sure you're in a difficult place and this stings just as much for you as it does for your customers. Change is difficult.
I would have to say that it's quite unfortunate that not enough customers were able to signup for LN. Both for the customer base and FL.
In my opinion FL is going down the road they need to go. I have not used and do not care to use the web based app at this point. However, I can see that in order to remain relevant and affordable to a (potentially) larger user base (revenue stream) FL has to provide a more attractive pricing model to a newer generation of believers and students of the word. That is your future and if you fail to execute the transition the business will not survive. While I may not like it personally I applaud you and FL for not shying away from attempting to make it happen.
I'm in the group who have made a significant investment in resources but have not added significantly to that investment in the past 2 years. I, like others, appreciated the LN subscription as it made sense. A couple of reasons for not purchasing more resources. 1) I don't need a significant number of new resources at this time, and 2) My primary device is an 8 inch Windows tablet and with a large library I cannot realistically add many more resources and have everything still run on the tablet due to space constraints.
I can understand those who are upset and unable to afford keeping up with feature set upgrades in new releases. I'm not in the financially struggling category although many of the Logos users in my circle of friends are in that category so I really understand their frustrations over what appears to be unnecessary features and services.
I think what I hear you saying Bob is that the FL Connect pricing point of ~$20/mo is what would work for customers like myself and FL to be in a win/win situation with feature set upgrades paying for software development costs. I just checked on my price to do a feature set upgrade on my Ultimate Collection and it would be around $2,500. Even if major releases of the software occurred every 3 years, my math shows that $720 is less than $2,500. Even though I don't like paying an extra $11/mo it is still a bargain in comparison to purchasing the feature set upgrade. And, for myself, I can actually afford to pay it.
There are two things that, in my opinion, would benefit everyone going forward. (I'm speaking of the core bible study product, not the extras such as FL TV. I have never used the extras so I don't have an opinion of them)
1) For those who can afford it, and are in a situation similar to mine, let's get behind this change and signup for it. If FL can succeed in getting the software into the hands of a new generation, using whatever (subscription, rental...) model, we all benefit. The more we use and support it the more can be invested in it. For those of us who are already LN users we are paid for already on FL Connect for the next 14 months, I believe, plus Bob sent us all credits to help in purchasing feature upgrades.
2) I would love to see some kind of special pricing for those users who have been around for a while (nice way of saying older like me) and have made a significant investment in resources over the years. That way they can keep up with new features in an affordable way. Some of these believers are those who could benefit the most and provide the most benefit and blessing to those they minister to.
I know the second item would be the most difficult to implement. There would need to be a way of determining who qualifies and not everyone would be happy in the end but the other side is that those who know the software best and could use new features and upgrades the most are stuck on the outside looking in because they can no longer afford it.
If there is a way to do it I will return the credit sent to me so someone more in need could use it to purchase a feature upgrade. Others probably have some better thoughts about how to help FL help all of us make it through this transition so that we all benefit. I do believe it would be very helpful, for those of us who are able, to signup for FL Connect and fully support FL as they work through this with us. The transition is definitely painful for many but in my opinion absolutely necessary for all of us to come out on the right side of things.
Thank you for listening,
William
I think what I hear you saying Bob is that the FL Connect pricing point of ~$20/mo is what would work for customers like myself and FL to be in a win/win situation with feature set upgrades paying for software development costs. I just checked on my price to do a feature set upgrade on my Ultimate Collection and it would be around $2,500. Even if major releases of the software occurred every 3 years, my math shows that $720 is less than $2,500. Even though I don't like paying an extra $11/mo it is still a bargain in comparison to purchasing the feature set upgrade. And, for myself, I can actually afford to pay it.
I am wondering how you came up with a Feature set upgrade price of $2500. It looks like the List Price for the Starter Feature Set is $199, the Full Feature set is $599, and the Extended Feature Set is $799 when I look it up after logging off my userid to avoid it showing my dynamic pricing which is substantially less.
I was using this page https://www.logos.com/compare/feature-sets to look up the feature sets.
I thought that the feature set list prices were independent of the collection that you have. I could be wrong... Paul
Hi Paul,
I guess I was confused and used the price for upgrading the Collectors Edition base package to v7. The $2,500 is the dynamic price for that upgrade. My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.
As far as the Extended Feature Set I'm seeing $879 instead and on sale for $679. I don't see the $799. Now we are closer to $740 for 3 years.
Maybe someone from FL can comment on and clarify on pricing for the extended feature set.
Seems closer to a wash depending on how one values the extras and on the actual cadence of new releases. It could still be a bargain without the extras if the release cadence is closer to 2 years.
Although we don't know the actual launch date for Logos 8 it's been less than 2 years since Logos 7 launched. The cadence between Logos 6 and 7 was slightly less than 2 years.
Based on release cadence of closer to 2 years I would still hold my position that FL Connect is a bargain for those who can afford to update their feature sets and want to pay less than purchasing to own. Although you could also argue that since the difference is less maybe it's better to purchase to own. I believe though we would be helping FL more by subscribing since they would have a somewhat more predictable revenue stream vs. not knowing for sure what percentage of installed base will purchase the upgrade with each new release until it comes out.
Thanks again,
William
I believe Bob said one of the challenges with LN was the feature upgrades. I wonder what the reaction would be if they would have simply removed that part of LN and charged the same amount.I think the reaction from what has been posted is that it would have been fine. I am another one who forgot that LN included upgrades every 6 months. It was also with me, not an important issue.
Don't forget if you go back and read Bob's post, you will see that while the new features were a problem, they weren't the main problem. The economics of Logos Now just didn't work (only a tiny fraction of the needed number of customers subscribed). Based on that, this isn't a viable option going forward at anywhere near the same cost.
It's important for everyone to realise that once you have a full feature set, upgrading to the next one will probably cost less than a Logos Now subscription. I had the Logos 6 Feature Set (or whatever it was called then), and buying the Logos 7 Extended Feature Set only cost me $70.21 on a 50% off Black Friday deal.
As Logos upgrades tend to happen every two years, that's a lot cheaper than the $200 I'd have paid for Logos Now over that same time.
I obviously have no idea how much I'll have to pay for the Logos 8 feature set, but I'd be surprised if I have to pay more than $200.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
I have found great comfort today Mark. Thank you muchly!
MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home
I have a question that I looked to see if someone else has posted yet but I couldn't find anything. I am a current Logos Now subscriber that was automatically mapped to the Connect Starter subscription. After looking the Starter subscription over I have no real interest in it, however I might I have an interest in the Connect Essentials subscription. My question has to do with how Faithlife addresses the overlapping of a Logos Now subscription with an Essentials subscription. My current Logos Now subscription doesn't expire until May and in the interim if I subscribe to Essentials it feels like I would be paying twice for the same benefits since Logos Now is essentially a subset of Essentials. Has Faithlife addressed this scenario?
My current Logos Now subscription doesn't expire until May and in the interim if I subscribe to Essentials it feels like I would be paying twice for the same benefits since Logos Now is essentially a subset of Essentials. Has Faithlife addressed this scenario?
Please read thread => Important Information about Faithlife Connect and Logos Now
Keep Smiling [:)]
Logos Now was an awesome deal, and we tried hard to get everyone to see that. But while you did, not enough did.
Logos Now maxed out somewhere near 1.8% of our annual revenue. That doesn't come close to making a dent in the cost of delivering it, let alone driving new product development and support.
What is your projection for annual revenue for FLC? From the discussion in this thread, I would expect a fraction adoption rate for FLC. Are you prepared to absorb this loss of revenue? Are you planning other shifts of services in the future that you would like to disclose? Since revenue from resources makes up the lion's share of your revenue base are you planning to further inflate prices here, risking an exodus to other software providers?
I like many forum participants have a large library and I can easily forego further purchases if I don't see value. As has been glibly stated elsewhere at the end of the day the consumer will make decisions based on self-interest, I hope your projections assume these scenarios.
Edit:It's interesting to me that such a small percentage of consumers can require a need for such a dramatic shift in services.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
Logos Now was an awesome deal, and we tried hard to get everyone to see that. But while you did, not enough did.
Logos Now maxed out somewhere near 1.8% of our annual revenue. That doesn't come close to making a dent in the cost of delivering it, let alone driving new product development and support.
What is your projection for annual revenue for FLC? From the discussion in this thread, I would expect a fraction adoption rate for FLC. Are you prepared to absorb this loss of revenue? Are you planning other shifts of services in the future that you would like to disclose? Since revenue from resources makes up the lion's share of your revenue base are you planning to further inflate prices here, risking an exodus to other software providers?
My take was that there are two different client bases. One, those of us who have a large library have invested a lot of money for resources. Second, new customers that aren't able to spend a lot of money to get started. Starter is close to $300. Bronze over $600. Silver $1000. Now they can get resources for $20 month. I'm not sure what package this equates to, but it seems more manageable.
So, the adoption rate for us would be small. For new customers? It would probably be higher.
If I were a new customer I wouldn't be able to afford much of Logos. However, as a new customer, _I_ would want much different resources. The commentaries set, even on the "standard" version wouldn't be sufficient. I'm not sure FaithLife Connect is even meant for me. It is meant for new customers, but not for folks who need specific resources.
The good news is, I don't have to have a FaithLife connect at all. I can use the coupon I'm getting, purchase the feature options, and continue using my thousands of resources, commentaries that I rely upon, etc., etc.
So, instead of paying $200/yr, I'll use the coupon code and pay $0. I'm sure I'm missing something but seems like a fairly good tradeoff. I'm just glad that I'll be able to continue to use my resources, not have to worry about a subscription model, and can purchase new resources as need and budget allow.
I'm not sure FaithLife Connect is even meant for me. It is meant for new customers, but not for folks who need specific resources.
David, here again, you have identified the core issue. However, I see things a little differently. The price point for new customers I believe is discouraging when you view the alternatives. And as you have aptly observed the tier of customers with large libraries are likewise discouraged at the present price point from becoming adopters. I'm one of those with a large library and I see no value in FLC, my money will migrate to other alternatives moving forward.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
with the help of a credit.
have emailed credit (or even free Faithlife Connect subscriptions) to ensure we're taking care of people
If you didn't get an email, or think we somehow let you down, contact us. We'll make it right.
As stated here... I still haven't received the email with the coupon.
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
After reading pretty much every post in every thread on this issue, and after further reflection, here are my current thoughts:
1) Connect is not a replacement for LN and never should have been implicitly positioned as such by automatically migrating people to one level or another in Connect. Bob's explanation clarifies that from FL's perspective, LN failed; and they went back to the drawing board for a new subscription model. The automatic migration contradicts Bob's explanation re. LN. If FL had simply given people a credit for the amount they had spent on LN and explained up front that Connect's target market is brand new Logos users, I suspect a lot of this drama and churn would have been avoided.
2) Mostly as a matter of curiosity, but partially as a matter of understanding Bob's comments, I'd love to know what portion of the $240/yr for Essentials is for benefits other than the core Logos application. Clearly they cost something, so after subtracting them out, whatever's left has to be in some way related to the "cost of doing business" to keep the core Logos application moving forward. FL / Bob don't owe me that, for sure, so I'm not expecting that level of detail. Just stating my interest in that detail...
3) Related to whatever that number would be, I have to wonder how FL's competitors can remain viable and profitable at < $100 / year upgrade prices when Bob says FL can't. As I said before, I'd pay ~$100/yr to know that I always had the latest features (including datasets), irrespective at what pace those features happened to be released. What I'd like to avoid is a new major release dropping and having to spend hundreds of dollars in one shot to get the latest features. But I think that's what I'm facing (albeit with a $200 credit the next time it happens).
My (most recent) $.02 ...
Donnie
Okay Have been making my way through the wilderness and just when I thought I made it out I fell into a hole. FLC says that have access to T&T Clark Johannine Studies (10 vols.), but having tried the online app to no avail. How do access the collection without outright purchase? Any clues ? By the way only two days left...
3) Related to whatever that number would be, I have to wonder how FL's competitors can remain viable and profitable at < $100 / year upgrade prices when Bob says FL can't.
FL has over 400 employees. I believe Accordance is around 50 (according to glassdoor), and OliveTree was around 20 when they were acquired by HarperCollins. They don't have to sell as much software to support their respective organizations. It's also possible that they're willing to "stay in their lane" while it looks like FL has more ... ambition.
I suspect what happened is that Logos went through a period of exponential growth when they offered deals that were too good to be true (e.g. the Christmas sale of 2011). That's what got me on board. That growth has probably slowed, but the growth of business expenses rarely slows, so now they probably have to fight for every penny that used to roll in easily.
Okay Have been making my way through the wilderness and just when I thought I made it out I fell into a hole. FLC says that have access to T&T Clark Johannine Studies (10 vols.), but having tried the online app to no avail. How do access the collection without outright purchase? Any clues ? By the way only two days left...
I answered in the other thread as it seems more appropriate over there. But you should be able to see those books.
Have joy in the Lord! 
You're correct. There's currently a one-to-one relationship between the following:
That will likely change when Logos 8 comes out. They won't necessarily stay in lockstep. It was the easiest way of improving the quality of Logos Cloud libraries when we did the Cloud relaunch last year.
But presently, for example, a Logos 7 Bronze or higher owner would gain no new Logos base package library resources by getting Faithlife Connect Essentials.
To reiterate my position again. First, no hard feelings. I was upset at first but you guys have responded and addressed my concerns. For that I thank you.
I am retired. I am a layperson and very rarely teach though I have/will participate in group discussions. I own the L7 starter feature set but Now gives me access to the full set. I estimate that like a lot of users I only utilize about 50% of the feature set. Part of that is ignorance about the features on my part and part is I just haven't needed some features. I'll wait until my Now expires on 11/27/18 and see if I lose any features that I commonly use. If I do lose any used features then I'll consider purchasing L8 if enough of the lost features are included in L8. Since I own the Silver base package I'll not get any new resources from any of the Connect subscriptions.
I currently have 2700+ that includes a lot of books purchased with your Christmas special promotions that you used to do and by purchasing the NEBRL and the Baker offerings etc.
My path for now and the near future is to concentrate on specific resources that interest me and are relative to my area of interest; the spread of the Gospel in the early church. I'll also take advantage of my free book of the month until Now expires. I'll evaluate L8 and future versions as they come along and purchase as funds and need dictate. From here on out I'm in "own it mode".
Since the announcement last week, I have downloaded, installed and taken a serious look at Accordance, Pocket Bible and eSword. My conclusions on them are
Final thoughts: I'm a happy and loyal (20+ years) Logos customer and that won't change.
Bob, Ok I get it. Subscription services are the new thing. I am seeing it everywhere and it is a good way to keep all the content updated and keeps down IT costs dealing with people that have issues because they didn't upgrade 5 upgrades ago. I wasn't happy with the change. I subscribed to LOGOS now to get the new features in advance and, I did like the free book every month as well. I did not use it for the Web app or any of that because the web app was no where near robust enough for what I do with the software on a regular basis. I am dealing with this change in model with another software I use all the time where the owners are not updating the legacy software because they are trying to cater to all they customers with a web app that isn't there yet. I also hate shelling out the large yearly subscription fee on this stuff every year. First it was office, then my recipe software, now faithlife and Logos. But, I do understand. I have not been buying nearly as many books as I have in the past simply because I do not currently have large funds to further invest in my library, and a lot of the resources available do not fit, my conservative, theology.
So, I just have one more question. It is unlikely that if LOGOS 8 comes out before the middle of next year, that I will be able to upgrade, at least right away. So, I used the coupon to get the feature set and lock those in, but here is the question, since I will lose my LOGOS NOW subscription and may not be able to upgrade to LOGOS 8 right away, will I lose access to those features until if / or when I either choose to upgrade to LOGOS 8 or pay the higher subscription price?
Just wondering.... will there be a discounted way to obtain those features when LOGOS 8 comes out without having to spend over $200 to upgrade my base package?
Thanks, Carla
On the positive side I can appreciate the feedback and "justification" for switching from one product line to another...related to profitability. I can also appreciate ownership expressing their editorial view on how the product will change for the better in the future. Yet I recall numerous times that FL and its products is a business and is in the market for profit. What strikes me is how in the lengthy sharing by ownership is how any of this is either my problem or my concern...it's the free market at work. Another way of saying it is when a business screws up it's their problem...grow to fast...offer meaningless product lines...lose money...forcing endless software gimmicks on customers who may not enjoy them...just the way it rolls in business. In the end, FL live or die, it just doesn't matter to me since I use other true bible software for my needs. The only thing I would miss if FL disappears due to business mistakes will be the minor monetary investment ($1800.00 or so over 20 years) in Logos. It's just business.
Good explanation! The new Faithlife Connect cloud service will work well for those who need the software for a short period of time, those who want a cheap up-front software, or those who will be long life costumers and are used to having cloud subscriptions.
With this next generation that loves changes and getting new software updates, it makes perfect sense! Subscription based payments are the best way to pay for changing software. I am still a little old school (millennial) , so I like to own my stuff, but I do think it meets the needs of another audience.
Thanks for the explanation! Keep up the good work.
This is my fear too!! Now, I’m reconsidering making more investments in logos... yikes this is a curve ball😐
Just do what I'm doing. Go strictly purchase and no more subscriptions which could change on you.
Hi Bob,
Here is a thought for FL to consider for those who signup for FL Connect at any subscription level.
Give a dollar for dollar credit for each month they are signed up for FL Connect to be used towards purchases to own such as new resources or feature set upgrades. It would basically be like paying in advance for purchases and building a credit to be used anytime desired. It couldn't be used towards subscriptions or anything considered rental in nature.
This would give incentive for purchasing to own while at the same time helping those not inclined to subscribe to get on board since this would in effect help in keeping up with feature set upgrades for each successive release. This would offer value to those who currently see no value in FL Connect vs. purchasing feature set upgrades only.
Doing something like this might put subscriptions over the threshold where FL would be sitting on a nice revenue stream while incentivizing purchases at the same time. Anything purchased above and beyond the credits would be a win for FL in my opinion.
Just another thought to help us all.
Thanks again for listening,
William
Doing something like this might put subscriptions over the threshold where FL would be sitting on a nice revenue stream while incentivizing purchases at the same time. Anything purchased above and beyond the credits would be a win for FL in my opinion.
I hope they hear you on this. My biggest concern is that the current subscription plan discourages purchases of the Standard library and discourages those with the Standard library from joining FC. They should to be finding ways to encourage all purchases. I'm holding out that when Logos 8 launches the new libraries will include something unique for the subscription.
The representative informed me that Verbum Now will be transitioned to FLCHi Beloved, I'm sorry you were given incorrect information. Verbum Now is not being transitioned into Faithlife Connect, nor do we have any current plans of doing that. I've asked our Customer Service Manager to reach out to you and help you get into Verbum Now, and to inform the rest of the Customer Service team that Verbum Now is an option for customers. Thanks.
I was told by CS that there is no way to do what I want. FYI, I will have to call back when my subscription expires to replace with Verbum Now.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
Just wondering.... will there be a discounted way to obtain those features when LOGOS 8 comes out without having to spend over $200 to upgrade my base package?
Carla,
What I would do is wait to buy the features until Logos 8 is released. (You can call Customer Service and ask to return them). You will have your credit to use when Logos' pricing will be their best - at the release of the new software. Many of us think this will be in October or November of this year.
You are a Logos Now subscriber. You will have access to all the features until November regardless of when your renewal date is. There is therefore no need to buy the feature set now.
You never have to pay to upgrade the software. So you should be able to buy the feature set when Logos 8 comes out using your credit. Should you want to buy an upgraded library, that will cost extra.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
Just read through this thread. Some of it I skimmed. But that is over 3 hours I am not getting back.
I have been watching other software companies go subscription only and at the enterprise level only. As a pastor I have four basic needs out of my electronics: Bible study, word processing, time/project management, and communication.
I went through a lot of Bible study software. Seedmaster, BibleWorks, NavPress, Zondervan, Ages, E4 Group, Accordance, Olive Tree, Quick Verse, WordSearch, and Logos. I chased features. I have by far have the largest investment in Logos in comparison to the others.
The time/project management software (will remain unnamed here) that I used for 9 years just went subscription based. I received a polite email. When I logged in to buy a subscription… there was not one. Everything was enterprise level. NO offering for a small business user base. Definitely no personal price offering. Needless to say I was upset. The CEO did not respond to my questions. There was no transition period. It was next month will cost you $$$$ every month to do what you have been doing for the last nine years because you purchased our software. Not to mention that the software auto-updated and immediately became unusable.
Bob, thank you. You have always responded personally to any question I have asked.
I remember in 1996, no one in the church I served used Bible software except me and one other staff member. We were Bible study nerds. We were like so many here, the early adopters, who have large resource libraries built over the years.
Our Bible software is very personal to us.
We freak out when changes take place. Freak out like someone just set our office and all our dead tree editions on fire.
Even 15 years ago, it was primarily just us Bible study nerds. Now I see different kinds of Bible software users. There are the scholars/academics. There are the preachers (not that the first group does not preach). There are church leaders/teachers. There are the devotional users. There are those who use mobile apps instead of print bibles in our pews.
I have watched Logos/FaithLife spanning that market. I have also watched Bob lead the company to reach out to the church visible like no other Christian company. Logos/Verbum Software has crossed denominational barriers to cater to our personal theological bents for the good of the Bride of Christ as a whole.
I remember loading Logos with a box full of floppy disks, then CD, then DVD, then download (that used to take days and days). But for over two decades, Logos has never denied me access to a single resource that I have purchased. They honored every serial number and converted them to the online licenses. They have even updated the older ones to work with the new engines for free. They store my documents and notes with my licenses at no extra to charge to me. I don't even have to remember my password because a human will answer the phone and reset it for me.
I am not sure how all of the new subscriptions will work. I am sure that L8 will be awesome.
I am also sure of this:
Bob Pritchett will admit the company’s failures, market misreads, and do everything that he can to provide products and services that are for the good of the church visible. And Bob Pritchett will keep his word. He has to me for over two decades.
My office is not on fire. My resources are safe. And thank you Faithlife for the $$$’s coupon head start on whatever is next.
And if you have read this long post, according to the Sermon Editor, that is 5 minutes you are not getting back.
at the enterprise level
Jeff, what does this mean: U use it twice. Thanks.
And if you have read this long post, according to the Sermon Editor, that is 5 minutes you are not getting back.
[Y] Thanks for the post. I count it as a 5 minute positive investment:)
And if you have read this long post, according to the Sermon Editor, that is 5 minutes you are not getting back.
Preach it. I appreciate your persperspective. Btw, I haven't looked at Sermon Editor yet since I've been happy with my workflow, but I had always heard the standard rate for preaching was 100 words per minute. Preached my first sermon and discovered my rate was 150 words per minute! [:|] I've slowed down over the years, and totally appreciate everone'a grace as I learned. Anyway, it didn't take anywhere near 5 minutes to read your post, but I certainly spent more than 5 minutes using my phone to reply. [:)]
Bob Pritchett will admit the company’s failures, market misreads, and do everything that he can to provide products and services that are for the good of the church visible.
Jeffrey, I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks.
It means they are not interested single customers or even smaller businesses. They are targeting corporations or businesses that will have 100 users at the low end.
You are welcome.
And if you have read this long post, according to the Sermon Editor, that is 5 minutes you are not getting back.
Thanks for the post. I count it as a 5 minute positive investment:)
I appreciate your comment.