Logos 7.15 Beta 1 (7.15.0.0007)

The "Rebuild index" command seems to be broken for me on MacOS.

The font size is too big for the "Faithlife Websites" section of the desktop. It makes that section much more pronounced than the other left pane sections. Is this by design, just affecting my system, affecting all PC system, or just my eyes seeing it this way (it's possible)?

See my previous reply for screenshot.

I am disappointed in decisions that are being made to 'upgrade' the software, like  this new advertising-oriented feature in the side pane, especially when some of the more egregious UI bugs that have been reported, that are "on the list", seem to continue to get ignored. Why can't these be fixed, they can't be that difficult and it would improve the user experience significantly?

Things like (from the Mac side):

- the use of the command box leaves 'left overs' that require additional keystrokes to use again, a behavior different from elsewhere in the program;

- big gaps show up regularly in Logos/Verbum's Home Page display, the first thing many users see - a behavior very shoddy compared to other programs' displays and acknowledged as a problem;

- populating dropdown delays have been improved but are still a major problem in some areas. For example, typing a new scripture reference in the AYBC on the fastest Mac laptop that exists right now takes EIGHTEEN seconds to populate the dropdown to go to another book!

I am sure there are others, I know there are a lot of issues asking for attention, I just wish it wouldn't seem like user problems that get reported get ignored for months, even years (check the threads to see that is the case). Delays this long sends the message to users "We really aren't going to fix these...", right?

A concerted effort to clean up the UI even more would make Logos/Verbum a prize for people used to working with other software, and would be more favorably received IMHO than some of the choices of 'new features' we have seen. Make what's there work even better!!

Thanks for listening.

Erwin Stull, Sr. said:

I turned it off from the program settings

to turn off:  de-select "Faithlife Websites"  [unclick box at bottom of selection list]

(Couldn't do a proper screen shot - first click on "sprocket" symbol at top right of screen) 

Then go down to the very bottom of the left column to the check-off box for  "Faithlife Websites" 

Don Awalt said:

I am disappointed in decisions that are being made to 'upgrade' the software, like  this new advertising-oriented feature in the side pane, especially when some of the more egregious UI bugs that have been reported, that are "on the list", seem to continue to get ignored. Why can't these be fixed, they can't be that difficult and it would improve the user experience significantly?

In fairness to FL, changing these product names in the sidebar was likely a very simplistic programing change that required very little research, coding, effort, etc. The other items you mention likely can't be resolved as simplistically as the products names in the sidebar.

I really did not mean for my reply concerning the left pane websites section to blow up this part of the forum post. I was just looking for acknowledgement that it had been seen/noted by Faithlife. My second, more vocal reply, with more specific questions, was due to the thoughts "Hmmm. Maybe my 1st reply wasn't seen. The reply after mine concerning indexing was acknowledged. I'll reply again with some specific questions and statements.".

Thanks Adam for the thoughtful reply. Let me address a couple points you raise.

1. With regard to the command box rewrite needed, I hear you. I was in software development for 32 years, had my share of those. On the other hand, I also know that sometimes the specter of 'we are going to have to rewrite that all someday' stops all progress in an area. What we are talking about here, is something probably as trivial as clearing the contents of the command box when it receives focus. That's how the text boxes work everywhere else. Why is this a concern to me? See #2...

2. Like the command box, I group the gaps in the Home Page as 'sloppy'. I don't mean this as an insult, but more 'sloppy' being the opposite of 'elegant'. What seems to be more true in the Apple ecosphere than any other I have experience with (which has included significant Windows dev experience), is that elegance, simplicity, consistency sells product. So people who come to the Apple ecosphere are there because there are generally few surprises in unintended functions; things work intuitively and consistently; there is attention to detail. while the world is focused on function, in the Apple ecosphere the experience needs to be a pleasing one, that is as important, even more so at times, than the functionality. Apple is the best example of this, maybe the raw specs are not as good of their hardware vs. others, but guess what? Nobody cares - because the product actually runs better.

This is based on sound logic, I believe - I am sure you feel the pressure to add more and more features into the product, but we know most people use a fraction of them - yet, *everyone* enjoys or suffers from the usage experience. So if it's slow, inconsistent, tacky looking, isn't that more important to most users, especially in the Apple world, then a dozen new features they frankly don't use? This is a major vision difference with where I think FL is right now, but I assure you, customers don't really care about those functions #35 - #65 on the list, especially if users are saying how it does NOT work like a 'real Apple-ecosphere software program'. I will say showing Verbum/Mac to other Apple customers presents these kind of reactions in my world, more times than not.

3. Re: the Home Page - it seems like every time I see a comment about it, the majority seem to not use it at all - so while I suspect you are right most don't complain about it, many more won't use it, and that's not really better, right? As I said another time, compare its look to the many newsreaders etc. that people are using now, every day - especially in the Apple world - Apple users will look at the big gaps and say "What is that for?"

4. Slow population of drop downs is a killer to user experience - a reminder every day that something is wrong, the program is 'slow' (when in fact it is much faster than competitors, and yet Logos/Verbum may not get due credit for that fact). This is a major violator of #2.

I am happy to discuss things further if you want, I haven't been keeping track of specifics because frankly, all it does is frustrate me when the things I see daily, and I assume FL users of the product see daily too, are left unaddressed for very long periods of time. Some other things to think about for now:

- Menu organization - how intuitive is it to a user? How come Guides get their own menu, yet a whole bunch of other stuff is lumped together? Why are References not Guides? Why aren't Guides considered tools? Why is it that just because a Tool generates a document it's not a tool? I bet watching novices use this would be a discovery of frustration.

- Have you folks watched people 'behind a mirror' using Logos to do different things, and see how they struggle? I have. It is a tremendously powerful program, but it's hard to intuit how to do the basic use cases most want. Do you have a list of the top dozen use cases, I know you track usage metrics? If so, have they been made as efficient, simplistic, intuitive to use as possible? Have keystrokes/clicks been minimized? Has the last 10% of features people want for those use cases been prioritized over the next dozen things being added to the program, since the top use cases are where users spend most of their time? These are all design principles that the best in the world adhere to slavishly. (And IMHO, FL is notorious for never really going back and finishing a new feature, whether fair or not - I was burned big time with Personal Books, for example, which still has a die hard following here but now may be passed its time).

You have nailed it Don, 100% agree with your feedback. The home page is something I rarely use hence why I would rarely complain Tesponse times on menus are a big issue. I bother even less with persomal books than I do the home page, not worth the effort when half baked. I’m not looking for new features I’m looking for existing features and datasets to be completed// improved,

Don Awalt said:

Thanks Adam for the thoughtful reply. Let me address a couple points you raise.

1. With regard to the command box rewrite needed, I hear you. I was in software development for 32 years, had my share of those. On the other hand, I also know that sometimes the specter of 'we are going to have to rewrite that all someday' stops all progress in an area. What we are talking about here, is something probably as trivial as clearing the contents of the command box when it receives focus. That's how the text boxes work everywhere else. Why is this a concern to me? See #2...

2. Like the command box, I group the gaps in the Home Page as 'sloppy'. I don't mean this as an insult, but more 'sloppy' being the opposite of 'elegant'. What seems to be more true in the Apple ecosphere than any other I have experience with (which has included significant Windows dev experience), is that elegance, simplicity, consistency sells product. So people who come to the Apple ecosphere are there because there are generally few surprises in unintended functions; things work intuitively and consistently; there is attention to detail. while the world is focused on function, in the Apple ecosphere the experience needs to be a pleasing one, that is as important, even more so at times, than the functionality. Apple is the best example of this, maybe the raw specs are not as good of their hardware vs. others, but guess what? Nobody cares - because the product actually runs better.

This is based on sound logic, I believe - I am sure you feel the pressure to add more and more features into the product, but we know most people use a fraction of them - yet, *everyone* enjoys or suffers from the usage experience. So if it's slow, inconsistent, tacky looking, isn't that more important to most users, especially in the Apple world, then a dozen new features they frankly don't use? This is a major vision difference with where I think FL is right now, but I assure you, customers don't really care about those functions #35 - #65 on the list, especially if users are saying how it does NOT work like a 'real Apple-ecosphere software program'. I will say showing Verbum/Mac to other Apple customers presents these kind of reactions in my world, more times than not.

3. Re: the Home Page - it seems like every time I see a comment about it, the majority seem to not use it at all - so while I suspect you are right most don't complain about it, many more won't use it, and that's not really better, right? As I said another time, compare its look to the many newsreaders etc. that people are using now, every day - especially in the Apple world - Apple users will look at the big gaps and say "What is that for?"

4. Slow population of drop downs is a killer to user experience - a reminder every day that something is wrong, the program is 'slow' (when in fact it is much faster than competitors, and yet Logos/Verbum may not get due credit for that fact). This is a major violator of #2.

I am happy to discuss things further if you want, I haven't been keeping track of specifics because frankly, all it does is frustrate me when the things I see daily, and I assume FL users of the product see daily too, are left unaddressed for very long periods of time. Some other things to think about for now:

- Menu organization - how intuitive is it to a user? How come Guides get their own menu, yet a whole bunch of other stuff is lumped together? Why are References not Guides? Why aren't Guides considered tools? Why is it that just because a Tool generates a document it's not a tool? I bet watching novices use this would be a discovery of frustration.

- Have you folks watched people 'behind a mirror' using Logos to do different things, and see how they struggle? I have. It is a tremendously powerful program, but it's hard to intuit how to do the basic use cases most want. Do you have a list of the top dozen use cases, I know you track usage metrics? If so, have they been made as efficient, simplistic, intuitive to use as possible? Have keystrokes/clicks been minimized? Has the last 10% of features people want for those use cases been prioritized over the next dozen things being added to the program, since the top use cases are where users spend most of their time? These are all design principles that the best in the world adhere to slavishly. (And IMHO, FL is notorious for never really going back and finishing a new feature, whether fair or not - I was burned big time with Personal Books, for example, which still has a die hard following here but now may be passed its time).