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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:10 PM

Bootjack:

Too late. I've bought L7 but didn't pay anywhere close to the 400.00 plus price mentioned earlier! :-) 

The ”Full Feature Set” is dynamically priced. If you have NEVER purchased a base package with data sets, your price is $600. Dynamic pricing brings that down. 

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Posts 243
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:22 PM

m wilson:

But, if you think that expanding the business requires all these "adjacent markets" then you better be right about what people want and be able to provide it. Sadly, I don't see as much evidence of that as I do FL trying to do things that they "hope" or "guess" will work. Thus, instead of offering people the tools for subscription, you are offering the tools with a lot of bloatware that no one wants to pay for. 

I think it is the "adjacent markets" that has the most impact here. There seems to be a shift in general from printed media to visual media

Posts 148
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:26 PM

Bootjack:

Rob, you say "The cost to purchase the full feature set empowering logos 7 is $429.21." I take it that you're referring to a present customer and not a new one, correct? Can you clarify that a bit? Is it a Logos 4, 5 or 6 user who you have in mind or something else.

Mr. Bootjack,

I own a lot of books (still paying for them) and rent the feature set through Logos Now.  I got a quote to buy the feature set for Logos 7 and its related data sets for the price of $429.21.  I took a screenshot but can't upload it. 

Bottom line, full feature set of Logos 7 (not including Lemma in Passage search or any of the interlinear bibles included with Logos Now....Just Logos 7 feature set.... 

Hope this helps.

Rob

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:30 PM

Rob - the ”full feature set” by itself is $600. The price you see is “dynamically“ priced. It takes into consideration any resources and/or datasets which you previously acquired PLUS the academic discount (if applicable). The price you are seeing reflects your unique situation. 

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:32 PM

MJ. Smith:

Denise:
I wondered how many pastors sit around counting theophanies

Don't know about others, but as a child I was fascinated by the tables and lists in Dad's Unger's :-)

Well, yes, me too. And even now, I love to thumb thru one of the atlas's.  I'd imagined our pastor being unable to answer how many theophanies. He'd look at me funny .... like somehow I missed the whole point of Christianity.  :)


Posts 10039
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:38 PM

PetahChristian:

One specific reason would be L8 introductory pricing. If you go from L6 to L8, the introductory savings would apply to both the new L7 and new L8 features you’d be buying. If you buy an L7 feature set now while it is not on sale, there are no savings.

In short, wait for additional savings.

Be careful, Petah. In the specific example BJ gave (a missing upgrade), from L5 to L7, you saved about $100 by going thru old L6. Versus a straight L5 to L7. Faithlife had popped the price up on L6's features, when they intro'd L7.

The big savings offers you remember were either involved Now or package-itis ... not mentioned by BJ.


Posts 148
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:50 PM

Danny Elliott:

I have looked at the comparison chart.  The Logos Now features I regularly use will not be available through Faithlife Connect Starter.  I am being forced to pay double for Essentials.  Other new features available still does not bring back the current features I now use.  $200 off Logos 8 is nice, but does not solve the issue of still having to pay double for what I now use.  You can say all you want that Faithlife will give you this or that, but the fact remains that I will still have to pay double for what I currently use.  This does seem like punishment to me.

It is punishment if a cram down is punishment (creditors are given take it or leave it offers... take 15 cents on the dollar or you will get nothing)....... Bob implies that he can't stay in business with the Logos Now model.  I wonder if getting rid of the things we don't want might change that equation.  Again, going back to Business School...., if your overhead is too much for your income you are toast (Harvard even agrees)... maybe cut income from things like the TV and keep those of us who just want to study the bible happy. 

Problem is, Bob, your salesmen sold us the idea of getting cutting edge tools (logos now) and a huge library to serve God.... and now you are instructing your same salesmen to urge their customers to rent this huge library their customers already own (don't worry about it as we don't have an ability to credit you for what you own.... but, don't worry) and also rent the tools you were renting.  

They didn't know better when they touted and pushed logos now... they honestly thought they were doing the right thing for their customers and you... and also could take the commission home to the wife... it felt good to them and the customer.... now management makes their words untrue.

Sir, this will backfire.    It may be a big desert; but, the tents are close together.  Logos is driven by hungry commission driven sales people selling to people who want nothing more than to understand the Bible and serve God...Pretty easy sale....so, the pitch your salesmen use has been, at least to me, let's load up on Books (you own them after all) and, at least now, rent the tools (logos now) so you can have the books you need to serve God.  More the merrier. Stretch and buy the books.... you will do a better job for God.

Simple solution: Cut out the stuff we don't want and all of the overhead associated with it (including employees), sell those of us who have a bunch of books the software and charge for updates.   Folks who haven't gone nearly broke buying (repeat BUYING) books to better serve God can live with this.  Folks who don't have a big library can just rent what they need and buy any add ons.  That way, lots of very cash starved seminariarians can rent the books they need to start their ministry and do their studies.

Does that work???

 

Posts 148
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:57 PM

JT (alabama24):

Rob - the ”full feature set” by itself is $600. The price you see is “dynamically“ priced. It takes into consideration any resources and/or datasets which you previously acquired PLUS the academic discount (if applicable). The price you are seeing reflects your unique situation. 

Thank you JT... Well, then even a 600 credit would not make a person who didn't own the feature set whole.... looking only at the feature set and not any books.   

Thank you... I feel like I am being hosed (or in the middle of a cram down).  

It will all work out... Bob, I would gladly give you money to keep Faithlife alive, just ask or raise prices on what I want.   Half the problem is you are selling people something they don't want for more money....

Posts 128
Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:59 PM

Bob, have you considered going in this direction:

You mentioned that the costs of turning books into Logos resources have dropped. You have hitherto relied on book sales to subsidise program development etc. What if you made this of your strategic goals: to be first to market with electronic versions of Christian books, especially scholarly books. 

There are plenty of Christian publishers whose publications don’t seem to be available in any ebook form (IVP Academic, Matthias Media, etc) - you could target them and partner with them to bring their books to market. 

Likewise the big publishers like Crossway.

Make it part of the publishing process: while they are type-setting the book, an electronic version is sent to you for processing, ready for synchronous launch. 

Become the go-to place to buy Christian works, therefore the go-to place to build libraries. 

This is already a slight competitive edge: double down on it. Aim for Synchronous launches of the entire publishing output of:

  1. Crossway  
  2. IVP
  3. etc

Add them one at a time, and build the relationship with the publisher. 

Don’t offer them only in bundles: offer books as single purchase items, just like other retailers. 

Once you have developed a book into an electronic resource, I’m assuming that its ongoing maintenance costs are low but it will be available for purchase for decades. 

You don’t need to recoup costs on every single book. The aggregate effect of being a better place to buy Christian books than amazon will result in positive cashflow overall. 

Posts 10039
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:04 PM

Rob Lambert:

Simple solution: Cut out the stuff we don't want and all of the overhead associated with it (including employees), sell those of us who have a bunch of books the software and charge for updates.   Folks who haven't gone nearly broke buying (repeat BUYING) books to better serve God can live with this.  Folks who don't have a big library can just rent what they need and buy any add ons.  That way, lots of very cash starved seminariarians can rent the books they need to start their ministry and do their studies.

Does that work???

 

Rob, not arguing with you. I thought Now had no future the day it was intro'd.

But from the looks of the Now wreckage:

- They're crediting Now'ers for much of their investment. And, ignoring Now'ers benefitted as promised.  Pretty much 'made whole'?

- They're intro'ing Connect. It looks like L7 deja vu.  I don't see how people will see the value. Especially if Now acceptance was so low. Who knows.

Maybe just reset the calendar to 2016 and call it a day .... new L8 soon. Buy, or not.


Posts 1
Mark King | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:07 PM

I love the idea of a subscription based service but it cost way too much.  I compare all of my subscription services to MoviePass: $10 a month for one 2-D movie a day. If it were $200-$250 per year for all of your Bibles, Language Tools, Maps, Dictionaries and Commentaries I'd jump on it! 

Posts 1048
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:08 PM

Rob Lambert:

Logos is driven by hungry commission driven sales people selling to people who want nothing more than to understand the Bible and serve God.

Several years ago (ca 2010) we learned that the Logos sales structure was switched so that salesmen didn't earn commissions anymore. Unless it was quietly changed back in the intervening years, commission is not sales' primary motivation.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:13 PM

Denise:

Rob, not arguing with you. I thought Now had no future the day it was intro'd.

But from the looks of the Now wreckage:

- They're crediting Now'ers for much of their investment. And, ignoring Now'ers benefitted as promised.  Pretty much 'made whole'?

- They're intro'ing Connect. It looks like L7 deja vu.  I don't see how people will see the value. Especially if Now acceptance was so low. Who knows.

Maybe just reset the calendar to 2016 and call it a day .... new L8 soon. Buy, or not.



In marketing they make a lot of the question "is this (product) for people like me". Now was. Connect is not. The feeling that kind of change in direction gives is unpleasant. Especially with talk of "if we started today we would be subscription only".

All of us who bought heavily into logos are too heavy a burden I guess. *sigh*

I'm getting out of here for a while again. Till the next time I get an unsettling email from them :(

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:24 PM

Bob Pritchett:

 And I am apologizing to you, right here, that we couldn't make it live up to our hopes in that configuration.



Some how I missed this way back on page 3.

Thank you for that.

It still doesn't sit well. I don't know what the future holds RE 7 or 8. I know I cannot buy more now. I probably won't be buying 8 later.


L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:25 PM

Bob Pritchett:

user="Don Awalt" - The crux of the issue is that FL has developed a lot of extra stuff that is not profitable.

Don, this would be a great analysis, except that one thing is reversed: those 'extra things' aren't the unprofitable part... it's the 'free' Bible software that's unprofitable. Selling it in a bundle model (bundled with books, and now other stuff) is what made the whole thing profitable.

Thanks for the reply Bob. Then I guess I am confused as to why we as users are being forced to purchase a bundle of products that doubles the cost in order to get what we REALLY want - the full feature set; especially if these extras are profitable on their own. You have to see most on this forum don't want to be forced to pay for the extras. Why push customers into something they don't want? If we are asked to understand and respect the business model that says Logos Now wasn't working for FL, why not listen and respect that this bundling of undesirable value for a much higher cost doesn't work for many customers? Isn't that always the business challenge to find a way to satisfy customers and make a profit?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:31 PM

Rob Lambert:
Well, then even a 600 credit would not make a person who didn't own the feature set whole.... looking only at the feature set and not any books.

I have made my concerns known to Bob, but I think this is a bit harsh. My primary concerns were 1) how this was announced and 2) hoping to see some sort of plan for long time users to gain access to features "inexpensively." As you noted in a different post, LN was billed as a means to continue with OWNING books, but RENTING features. 

I can appreciate that FL tried something that didn't meet their expectations... and I don't think we should hold that against them. I think the new program is GREAT for many users... especially those who don't necessarily need to "own" their books and who don't already have a large library. It is ok for them to say, "this didn't work." But they didn't. Instead they launched it as a "new and improved" version... which it isn't. Bob was right in his post... it is a new program altogether. 

Here is what I do see (that is good): FL has sent out coupons to try and "make it right." I don't know the rhyme or reason behind who got what coupon, but if a user had LN for 1 year and received a 100 voucher, they essentially received their money back. Right? They can go and purchase the "Full Feature Set" and own it. I do empathize with you as you have stated that the savings caused you to purchase a larger package. I think that is where the "harm" comes in. 

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Chris duMond (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:53 PM

Claude Brown Jr:

Okay so went to subscriptions and noticed that it says that I have both Connect and Now. Now will expire Nov 2018, Connect will renew at the starter level in June 2018 at 89.99. I am so confused as that seems like double billing to me as there is less than Now in the Connect starter level that billing starts for even as have Now for another 7 months. Even if billing for Essentials started in June I would not get anything that I did not have in NOW until November when Now would be discontinued? Am missing something ? I read BOB's post where He says "So yes, since everything in Logos Now is now in Faithlife Connect (and more, of course), and since Logos Now is no longer sold separately, you could argue that we raised the price of Logos Now." There is no more in the comparison chart.???

Claude,

I'm going to parse this out a little to help you make sense of this.

1) Your original Logos Now Annual subscription would have renewed on June 8 of this year. We turned off the renewal for Logos Now completely, and then...

2) We extended your Logos Now benefits PAST June 8, so you will keep getting everything you had in Logos Now until 11/12/18 at no extra cost to you. 

3) We also migrated you into Faithlife Connect Starter, effective immediately, again at no cost to you right now, so you can start getting the benefits of Faithlife Connect Starter immediately (such as Faithlife Courses, Faithlife TV, BSM Logos Editions). You will start your billing cycle for Faithlife Connect Starter on June 8 (which was when your original Logos Now subscription was up for renewal). You are being billed $89.99 for Faithlife Connect Starter, which is $10 less than you were being billed for Logos Now. 

The net out is that you have access to BOTH Connect Starter and Logos Now benefits until 11/12/18. On 11/13/18, you'll only have access to Faithlife Connect Starter benefits. 

Posts 243
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 2:11 PM

Thanks followed that.

Okay so if i want essentials instead of starter I need to call in to have that change made before the renewal date.

Posts 8
Brian Hammonds | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 2:17 PM

I, too, hope Faithlife is around a long, long time and and hope that the "purchase and download" model is never abandoned since I've invested a lot into that as well! It sounds like the best business solution for Faithlife and for your customers is for the church to keep growing bigger and deeper through evangelism and discipleship until the Lord returns...perhaps we can focus most on that!

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Chris duMond (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 2:26 PM

Claude Brown Jr:

Thanks followed that.

Okay so if i want essentials instead of starter I need to call in to have that change made before the renewal date.

You got it. You can do that by calling Customer Service at (888) 308-7621 or emailing customerservice@faithlife.com

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