Selling Logos 4 in Bookstores?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 1:07 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good. 

I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but consider the possibility of Logos shared files for a congregation - pastor, Sunday School teachers, youth ministers, worship planners etc. Different people using different features. It isn't a big jump from that to members of the congregation having stripped down, inexpensive Logos for their weekday studies.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 2:53 AM

I must agree with Mark here...Logos is NOT a low-end-public-domain piece of blble software and the problem is...others do that job well...why would anyone change to Logos?

Most people don't get why they'd want Logos...they say "I'm using E-XXX" why do I want that? They have no clue that the resources that they are using are free for a reason; that BDAG just might be better than say ...Strong's? :)

While I understand the "gateway drug" thing...I think Logos would be better served with demos; as many as they could afford to have; showing WHY someone would need to spend 500.00 on bible software...

And those who understand it...would buy....

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 4:48 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Mark, I agree with all you say. You are right. Logos is very complex Bible software for serious Bible study and IMHO it should stay that way. To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good. 

"All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others." Smile

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

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LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 10:01 AM

I appreciate all the suggestions! It's really interesting to see the same business discussions we have internally being held again with different people and different perspectives.

I've previously addressed why we don't sell in bookstores anymore (the bottom line: it stopped working -- they just weren't selling much), so I won't revisit that. But the discussion of the cheap starter / trial library reminded me of a good example.

Would you eat at a very expensive restaurant run by Chef Boyardee?

Probably not. Because if you're a fan of his inexpensive "taste of" product, you probably don't eat at very expensive restaurants. And if you do regularly eat at very expensive restaurants, you probably think Chef Boyardee isn't the pinnacle of quality dining.

But Ettore Boiardi was head chef at New York's Plaza Hotel before opening his own restaurant, at which diners begged for small bottles of sauce to take home. He obliged, eventually canning it and changing the spelling of his name to something more phonetic for English speakers.

Sorry if that's not a perfect fit... I've just been looking for a way to use this story... :-) 

Even better might be to ask why there's no $9,000 starter edition Lexus. A way to get people into the Lexus brand when they're young and poor and can't afford a luxury car.

Because in this case, while brand management is part of the answer -- as it is for Chef Boyardee, who ultimately could only live at one end of the market -- there's also the fact that what makes a Lexus a Lexus is something expensive to provide: quality engineering, attention to detail, expensive components, and expensive-to-provide customer service. At $9,000 you can't offer a Lexus. Maybe something cheap and poorly supported with a Lexus nameplate, but not a Lexus.

That's how we feel about Logos. It's a powerful tool for working with a large library of quality Bible reference tools, which rewards an investment in learning to use it, all backed by stellar service. As a small collection of cheap books it's not nearly as attractive: it offers less content, the software seems "overpowering" for the content it has, it takes too much to learn to use, and we can't afford to offer the same service.

I think many of you are right: there is a (large) market of "lower-need" Bible students, many of whom might become full-fledged Logos users. But I don't think a cheap, trial Logos is the right way to reach them. Look for us to use a different brand, a different approach, and maybe even a different pricing model. (See http://bible.logos.com for a hint of where we're going. Or http://betabible.logos.com for an even bigger hint.)

 

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 10:38 AM

Paul Golder:

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Mark, I agree with all you say. You are right. Logos is very complex Bible software for serious Bible study and IMHO it should stay that way. To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good. 

"All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others." Smile

Paul, I hope you just joke. The thing I wanted to say was that it is a matter of preferences. There are people who would  use Gedeon's free Bible for their reading but have a motorbike for a weekend rides. Nothing against a motorbikes but it shows preferences IMHO.

Bohuslav

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 10:48 AM

Bob Pritchett:
for a hint of where we're going. Or http://betabible.logos.com for an even bigger hint.)

 

Color me impressed. I see a sync button! Surprise

 

Now Bob, you realize this isn't the "private forum", are we supposed to keep quiet about this beta as well? Wink

 

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 11:02 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Paul, I hope you just joke. The thing I wanted to say was that it is a matter of preferences. There are people who would  use Gedeon's free Bible for their reading but have a motorbike for a weekend rides. Nothing against a motorbikes but it shows preferences IMHO.

 

I've had that conversation too many times to count.

Me: "Did you see my logos software? Pretty cool eh?"

Them: "Oh yeah....that's cool...is it free?"

Me: "no...it was about 650.00 when I bought it.

Them: "Whoa! That's a lot of cash!"

Me: "Well....when you think about it....it's only about 80.00 a month...I'll be you spend at least 50.00 a month on McDonalds"...

Them: "...well yeah..."

Me: "...and how much do you spend on your motorcycle a month?"

Them: "..well..i'm buying a new rim and tire now....about 350.00

Me..."hmmm.....

 

 

Priorities....

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 11:12 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Paul Golder:

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Mark, I agree with all you say. You are right. Logos is very complex Bible software for serious Bible study and IMHO it should stay that way. To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good. 

"All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others." Smile

Paul, I hope you just joke. The thing I wanted to say was that it is a matter of preferences. There are people who would  use Gedeon's free Bible for their reading but have a motorbike for a weekend rides. Nothing against a motorbikes but it shows preferences IMHO.

Yes it was a joke. I completely agree that in it's present form, L4 is not an entry level tool for the average user. 

I also figured that Bob was way too savvy of a business man to not get a share of the entry level market, and with his succeeding post it looks like we can see that he is building a business model that will attract those who buy sub-compact software into desiring (and perhaps purchasing) a Luxury version one day.

( PS. My friend's Harley was more expensive than my house was... Wink )

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 11:19 AM

Terry Poperszky:
Now Bob, you realize this isn't the "private forum", are we supposed to keep quiet about this beta as well?

This is open to the public, though a very early beta. And this was the first mention of it.... you heard it here first. :-)

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 11:37 AM

Bob Pritchett:
This is open to the public, though a very early beta. And this was the first mention of it.... you heard it here first. :-)

 

So instead of the 49.99 starter edition, you introduce them to it across the web, utilizing free resources. This is similar to the iPhone app model which is primarily the reason I upgraded from Mac 1.22 to L4. Then,when I saw the functionality of L4 and the additional resources being offered I dropped another 600 to upgrade my base package. That free iPhone application cost me over 700.00. Surprise

Not a bad business model.

 

 

 

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 12:08 PM

Paul Golder:
( PS. My friend's Harley was more expensive than my house was... Wink )

Ha, that was prophetic Stick out tongue

Sorry, I didn't want to hurt your feelings. When I grow and be old and rich, I will buy one too Cool

You know, actually some years ago we started the first Christian Motorbikes Club in the country. They have a great ministry now.

Bohuslav

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 12:25 PM

Bob Pritchett:

That's how we feel about Logos. It's a powerful tool for working with a large library of quality Bible reference tools, which rewards an investment in learning to use it, all backed by stellar service. As a small collection of cheap books it's not nearly as attractive: it offers less content, the software seems "overpowering" for the content it has, it takes too much to learn to use, and we can't afford to offer the same service.

Bob, this is right on, in my opinion. The old $10 intro packs made Logos look cheap. "Why would I pay hundreds of dollars for this? I get this much and more free on the internet." But you don't understand, it does so much more when you have more resources for it to work with, I'd say. Ultimately, after they got a cheap starter pack, they were nowhere closer to becoming Logos users than they were when we started. They now just owned a $10 starter pack that they'd never launch cause it was easier to use the web or to not even use a computer at all. It simply didn't show off at all what Logos could do. I almost feel the same way about the cheaper base packages as well. 

So, in summary, my experience after I bought about 20 of those starter packs is that unless you were giving away a ton more than you did there, it simply isn't a good way to get new users to Logos. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 12:49 PM

Bob Pritchett:
That's how we feel about Logos. It's a powerful tool for working with a large library of quality Bible reference tools, which rewards an investment in learning to use it, all backed by stellar service. As a small collection of cheap books it's not nearly as attractive: it offers less content, the software seems "overpowering" for the content it has, it takes too much to learn to use, and we can't afford to offer the same service.

Good point. The other option would be to do some kind of a rental program, but then you have to go back to all those publishers and you still have to provide the expensive support. But  you could always something like "if  your not sure you want to take the plunge into Logos but you want to give it a shot, Rent every resource in the Scholars, our best selling product, for $50 with one month to try it out. If at the end you want to buy the product, you get $25 off your purchase of a base product.

Yeah, doubt it...but with cloud computing it does make it more feasible.

Posts 149
Bob Schaefer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 9:29 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I think many of you are right: there is a (large) market of "lower-need" Bible students, many of whom might become full-fledged Logos users. But I don't think a cheap, trial Logos is the right way to reach them. Look for us to use a different brand, a different approach, and maybe even a different pricing model. (See http://bible.logos.com for a hint of where we're going. Or http://betabible.logos.com for an even bigger hint.)

As much as I love what Logos is doing with library.logos.com, I'm afraid I'm underwhelmed with the free bible.logos.com site.

To me, it needs to do two things to consider it a success:

  1. Outshine the many existing Bible study sites in some way.
  2. Provide a clear and compelling link to Logos Bible Software.

I can't say that it accomplishes either of those tasks in the current forms Bob Pritchett shared with us. Sad

I'm also disappointed in the idea of Logos as a luxury brand. Yes, I understand the business sense behind this. But tools like Logos need to be in the hands of the many, not just those of us privileged to have book budgets. The Reformation took place in no small part because the printing press made God's Word (and tools to understand it) available to those outside the priesthood and the academy. Computer-assisted Bible study is another reformation waiting to happen, but not if it's treated as a Lexus.

It's important to me that Logos not price "entry-level" Christians out of the reformation, because I believe that this software is the right balance of power and accessibility, and because at the end of the day I believe it's possible to put together a useful collection that is not beyond the budget of your typical Sunday school teacher or Bible study member, if only there's a will to do it.

Maybe it's my personal experience of having bought what I could afford - a very basic starter package - and growing into a dedicated user. As I understand it, that's apparently not a common experience, either in these forums or in the broader Logos community. Still, unless Logos has an ace up its sleeve, which looks more like the iPhone app and less like bible.logos.com, I think it's a both a mistake and a shame to abandon that market segment to lesser programs.

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Mark Watson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 9:40 PM

Sounds okay.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 9:41 PM

I used Lexus as a quality comparison, and to make a point about branding, which is an unavoidable part of how people perceive things and assign value. Logos isn't priced with an extra "luxury premium", though -- it's priced based on what it costs to make and support. Saying it's a shame to abandon the lower price market to lesser programs is like saying it's a shame cheaper products are made with flimsy plastic parts. The two things are actually related.

Bob Schaefer:
Outshine the many existing Bible study sites in some way.

I think we do have a few aces up our sleeves -- our full web strategy is "not yet revealed" -- but I'm still curious about what Bible.Logos.com would need to do to outshine the other sites.

Thanks!

Posts 120
Mark Watson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 9:51 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I used Lexus as a quality comparison, and to make a point about branding, which is an unavoidable part of how people perceive things and assign value.

 

Bob - let someone with a history in automobile manufacturing remind you that a Lexus is only a Toyota with the critical tolerances cut in half (or less) and more quality control.  That is how they became "branded" for quality.  And it costs alot more to manufacture due to these details.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 10:45 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Terry Poperszky:
Now Bob, you realize this isn't the "private forum", are we supposed to keep quiet about this beta as well?

This is open to the public, though a very early beta. And this was the first mention of it.... you heard it here first. :-)

I like the idea Bob. If publishers come on board, then one day I may have access to my "Platinum Library" wherever there is an internet connection. Imagine reading, searching, etc., a resurce without downloading, indexing, or even having your computer with you.

Make sure to limit it to one login at a time per user.

Looks promising.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

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Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2010 11:00 PM

I don't give a hoot where Logos sells or doesn't sell their product.  The Christian bookstore thing just worked for me.  That's where I got mine. 

But where Logos decides to sell their product is their business and has to be based on the numbers. 

My thought was that if it's not going to be in Christian bookstores (at least for visibilities sake) - then some other advertising on the web or in magazines would be needed to increase peoples awareness that Logos even exists.  To me sales seems to be about 40% user satisfaction with the product, and 60% visibility.

I also like the idea of setting up a web page that people can go to - to allow them to "use" or "preview" a web based version of the software.  i suppose this idea is a much better use of Logos resources than handing out $10.00-$50.00 starter packs.   

But if it's going to work - and actually attract people to the Logos brand and get people interested in buying the full Logos 4 program (and it's my understanding that that's the goal) -  it should look and act just like the real deal does.  The web site does not look anything like the program.  That's gonna turn a lot of people off.  IMHO. 

So I'm wondering if making this beta web site look and act just like the real deal is going to be part of what Logos is doing with the overall re-design of Logos.com?

 

Posts 149
Bob Schaefer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2010 7:31 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Saying it's a shame to abandon the lower price market to lesser programs is like saying it's a shame cheaper products are made with flimsy plastic parts. The two things are actually related.

Respectfully, I have to disagree. Maybe it simply isn't financially viable for Logos to serve this market segment while maintaining the quality of the product - you know that better than I do, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not a shame if that's the fact. Christians on a budget deserve better than the mediocre software that's currently available to them.

Bob Pritchett:
I'm still curious about what Bible.Logos.com would need to do to outshine the other sites.

That's actually a really good question!

If I answer honestly, I think I probably won't know the answer until I see it - it's the "wow!" moment that I had when I realized how far you'd come in translating L4 into a web-based resource over at library.logos.com. If you run with that, maybe including a web-centric version of the Home page, you'd be introducing a kind of Bible study tool to the web that just doesn't exist anywhere else, and that is distinctively Logos. You'd be able to provide a substantial part of the boxed "Logos experience" without any distribution costs, and (I'm guessing) with lower support costs.

That's what occurs to me right now, but I'll certainly share anything else I come up with that would polish the Logos halo.

 

 

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