Logos 10 Will be released...
Comments
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Honored to take some weight off of your very broad shoulders, Graham.Graham Criddle said:Beloved Amodeo said:I think you might be surprised with what you find.
That's a great point
Thank you, I missed that.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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xnman said:
I think... I have shown that Logos Search ... 1. Is not easy to use. 2. That Logos Search could be easier.
I think you have shown that without specifying clearly what you are searching for then it doesn't return useful results!
Incidentally, I agree entirely that Logos Search could be easier, and I expect that most people would agree with that statement. But that doesn't mean it can't be a really helpful tool.
xnman said:I didn't "grow up" with Logos Search..... I "grew up" in other Bible programs that had searches that worked for me... I don't have to "be loyal" to something that causes me grief to try to find something to help me study the Bible.
I get that. For me it is not about loyalty, but using something that I find really useful. And I am sorry it is causing you grief.
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xnman said:
Edit: What started this "kings thing" was that I was looking for how Pekahiah died... and the "Outline that I completely overlooked" and which stated my rant.... actually shows that...
Thank you for that clarifiication.
And if I can mention Factbook in this context, it actually provides some very useul information!!
Selecting the first option takes you to a useful dictionary article that discusses his death
Selecting the second option takes you to some specific information relating to his death
And there are even some useful options from the Command Box!
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Thanks Graham... as always...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I encourage you to continue to be your genuine self. You represent a silent portion of FL customer base who need a voice to bring forward their, shall I say dissatisfaction with the cryptic nature of search and timelines and the Go Box and such.xnman said:Beloved Amodeo said:xnman, you know I feel ya, but did you bother to select the Outline first listed in your search? I think you might be surprised with what you find. Logos works. You've got to work it.
Beloved.... I did not.... and I missed it. Thanks for pointing it out.... That does work...
Edit: What started this "kings thing" was that I was looking for how Pekahiah died... and the "Outline that I completely overlooked" and which stated my rant.... actually shows that...
I apologized for my rant.
Thanks.
Yes, continue to advocate for needed change to bring my and your Logos to a place where all of us can be satisfied that our investment is paying dividends for all users: pastors, teachers, students from beginners to advanced, lay persons, authors and academicians. If I missed anyone I apologize. I shouldn't have to turn to a competitor to get serviceable timelines that I can use in my ministry and I certainly shouldn't have to go to a competitor to get a Study Bible for free that isn't even in the FL catalog.
I think of Tes who is aching to have Bibles in his native tongues to spread the Gospel in an ancient Christian nation. I hope FL is listening.
One good rant deserves another!
I'm not sorry for it either.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.2 1TB SSD
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David Wanat said:Wolfgang Schneider said:David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up.
Hmn ... what do you do at a train station where trains going in different directions stop while you are standing at the platform wanting to get in the train that will take you to where you want to go? Do you just enter the first train that stops without checking that it is actually the train you want to use? Who would be to blame for you entering a train you did not want to use?
For some reason, a < 5 seconds wait for the software to list the many options available plus 2 seconds to put cursor on desired option appears too much for some these days ....
Review “strawman fallacy.”
What is there about "strawman" or "fallacy" ? Seems rather that it is a simple and real matter => use the tool as it is designed and as it works for those who use it as designed.
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Wolfgang Schneider said:David Wanat said:Wolfgang Schneider said:David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up.
Hmn ... what do you do at a train station where trains going in different directions stop while you are standing at the platform wanting to get in the train that will take you to where you want to go? Do you just enter the first train that stops without checking that it is actually the train you want to use? Who would be to blame for you entering a train you did not want to use?
For some reason, a < 5 seconds wait for the software to list the many options available plus 2 seconds to put cursor on desired option appears too much for some these days ....Review “strawman fallacy.”
What is there about "strawman" or "fallacy" ? Seems rather that it is a simple and real matter => use the tool as it is designed and as it works for those who use it as designed.
That your post wasn’t even remotely addressing my point. My point was on improving the go bar. I already know how to do what you assume I ignored. But I think the option of choosing the default would improve the product for L10.
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David Wanat said:
But I think the option of choosing the default would improve the product for L10.
I've just gone back to look at your suggestion. Apologies, I missed it first time. I assume you are referring to where you said:
" I'd say having Logos 10 allowing a setting to choose whether "Search" or "Factbook" coming up first would be a better way to do things."
I get that - but the challenge, I think, is that that box isn't only used to initiate searches or a Factbook lookup
If I think of my most common uses for that box they are probably something like:
- Matthew 1:18-25 (where I want to open my preferred Bible to a particular location)
- Open NAC James (where I want to open a particular resource and want to be able to specify even of its title to determine it)
So with that box supporting many different usage patterns I'm concerned that a settable option would get rather complex (or not cover all the cases)
So I can't think of a better approach than is currently there - with the system trying to learn individual's usage patterns and adjust itself accordingly
(Although I personally think there are some issues with that algorithm but haven't been able to demonstrate / document it clearly enough for the development teams to be able to look at!)
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Graham Criddle said:David Wanat said:
But I think the option of choosing the default would improve the product for L10.
I've just gone back to look at your suggestion. Apologies, I missed it first time. I assume you are referring to where you said:
" I'd say having Logos 10 allowing a setting to choose whether "Search" or "Factbook" coming up first would be a better way to do things."
I get that - but the challenge, I think, is that that box isn't only used to initiate searches or a Factbook lookup
If I think of my most common uses for that box they are probably something like:
- Matthew 1:18-25 (where I want to open my preferred Bible to a particular location)
- Open NAC James (where I want to open a particular resource and want to be able to specify even of its title to determine it)
So with that box supporting many different usage patterns I'm concerned that a settable option would get rather complex (or not cover all the cases)
So I can't think of a better approach than is currently there - with the system trying to learn individual's usage patterns and adjust itself accordingly
(Although I personally think there are some issues with that algorithm but haven't been able to demonstrate / document it clearly enough for the development teams to be able to look at!)
I think we're closer to understanding than we were.
I don't have objections to a string of options dropping down or machine learning one's preferred option. I'd just prefer the ability to choose Search or Factbook as the first option. If it can't work due to technical reasons, that's fine. I'm no programmer who would know what is simple or difficult. But if it could be done, it would be convenient.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:
I'd just prefer the ability to choose Search or Factbook as the first option. If it can't work due to technical reasons, that's fine. I'm no programmer who would know what is simple or difficult. But if it could be done, it would be convenient.
There's already an option to use the search options without waiting to see the results. Just allow the suggestion list to show up once so you can see the shortcut key you should use instead of the Enter key. You can type what you want and hit that key and get the search you are wanting.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Andrew Batishko said:
There's already an option to use the search options without waiting to see the results. Just allow the suggestion list to show up once so you can see the shortcut key you should use instead of the Enter key. You can type what you want and hit that key and get the search you are wanting.
That's a sub-thread complaint ... on my latest Verbum and highspeed MBP, it's a solid 10 secs ... for 'something' to show up.
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Andrew Batishko said:David Wanat said:
I'd just prefer the ability to choose Search or Factbook as the first option. If it can't work due to technical reasons, that's fine. I'm no programmer who would know what is simple or difficult. But if it could be done, it would be convenient.
There's already an option to use the search options without waiting to see the results. Just allow the suggestion list to show up once so you can see the shortcut key you should use instead of the Enter key. You can type what you want and hit that key and get the search you are wanting.
I've mentioned already that I use it.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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Graham Criddle said:
I get that - but the challenge, I think, is that that box isn't only used to initiate searches or a Factbook lookup
True. But your background (and foreground?) is systems. Just look at the interface:
- A highly contrasted Factbook icon
- A de-emphasized search icon that actually appears to simply be a decoration, and missed by many. And being connected to the text box, it's actually unrelated.
- A text box that promises 2 choices: a search or a Bible lookup.
My earlier point ... their UI isn't well thought out. Logos10 is a good opportunity for them.
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DMB said:
But your background (and foreground?) is systems
Background yes, not so much at the moment!
DMB said:- A highly contrasted Factbook icon
- A de-emphasized search icon that actually appears to simply be a decoration, and missed by many. And being connected to the text box, it's actually unrelated.
I tihnk that's a very valid point
DMB said:- A text box that promises 2 choices: a search or a Bible lookup.
As it that!
DMB said:My earlier point ... their UI isn't well thought out. Logos10 is a good opportunity for them.
And it will be fascinating to see what that brings.
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I may be straining out gnats, Andrew, but why is there no hotkey to open Bible verses to your preferred Bible and why is it referred to as such when in the search line its title is spelled out?Andrew Batishko said:David Wanat said:I'd just prefer the ability to choose Search or Factbook as the first option. If it can't work due to technical reasons, that's fine. I'm no programmer who would know what is simple or difficult. But if it could be done, it would be convenient.
There's already an option to use the search options without waiting to see the results. Just allow the suggestion list to show up once so you can see the shortcut key you should use instead of the Enter key. You can type what you want and hit that key and get the search you are wanting.
Another burr. Why does the software present a series of commentaries out of numerical order? If I'm interested in the first of two volumes I expect the title for the first to be at the top and stay there.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.2 1TB SSD
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My apologies for having forgotten this example.
xnman said:which, as I have stated more than once.... implies to me that Search is not searching all my resources.... which hurst my confidence in Search....
I refuse to trust Faithlife tagging so I nearly always run a second search to verify the results of the first. I have never found unsearched resources. I have very occasionally found a corrupt index that needed to be rebuilt for results to appear but the cases I recall were related to disk failures. However, at first, I had trouble understanding my results because I:
- forgot the setting for match case
- forgot the setting for match all forms
Yes, those settings are hidden in the panel menu, something I've complained about for decades. They are a major stumbling block to learning to use the search.
xnman said:to studying Logos Search.... which because of that.... I am using (Logos Search) less and less and going to "outside Logos" for searches.
I have always considered thinking through what I wish to search for and how to do it a fundamental step of research ... even back when I was dealing with library card catalogues, multiple specialized libraries, and physical books. My experience with Google has been that it often tries to "correct" a query to a more common related term and that the articles that actually address my actual question are on "page 10" of the results. But then I am asking questions about the Hebrew canon of the Kaifeng Jews or the Armenian apocrypha.
xnman said:so why am I pestered with it? ... "forcing" something like Factbook on me.
Unfortunately, the only solution to this problem is changing your attitude towards it - something in your bailiwick not mine. There are many aspects of Logos that I do not like or some that I almost find offensive. However, when I look at the market that Logos tries to reach, I can understand why they are as they are and admit that I might well have made the same design decisions. There is little software that this is not true of. I use Factbook very little because it lacks entries for the material I'm most interested in. The only places where it appears for me is (a) in search results in a section I keep closed and (b) in the context menu actions. I don't mind that.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
with the Google Search and the Logos Search both searching for the same thing
In my mind, it is impossible to search for the same thing in Google as in Logos ... in Google I search for an unknown artificial intelligence interpretation of my query across the internet; in Logos I search for my precise query (with wiggle room I set) across a limited library of tagged resources. Fortunately, both have places where they are the best solution. I especially like Google for graphic visualizations and am totally dependent on it for hymns, art, poetry, and other expressions of the Bible and theology in regular life.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Beloved Amodeo said:
Another burr. Why does the software present a series of commentaries out of numerical order? If I'm interested in the first of two volumes I expect the title for the first to be at the top and stay there.
Beloved Amodeo said:I may be straining out gnats, Andrew, but why is there no hotkey to open Bible verses to your preferred Bible and why is it referred to as such when in the search line its title is spelled out?
Add these suggestions to feedback - there are many elements that would add polish to Logos if that is what we users want to prioritize.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Some great comments on this thread... I hope FL is listening....
Thanks to all for the comments.
Edit: Beloved Amodeo --- I thought about this thread today.... and you really helped me a lot to understand that I wasn't being diligent to follow through on my searches... I appreciate that. Thanks.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Could it be that much of the discussion about the "Go Box" / "Command Box" is actually "beside the point" ?? It seems to me that users are mistaking the Go Box as a kind of Search tool and want it to do things which it was not meant to accomplish. Consider the description given in Logos help file ....
[quote]Command Box
The Command Box allows users to type commands directly. This is especially helpful if users know what they want to do, but don’t want to find it in the menus.
Logos Help. Bellingham, WA : Faithlife, 2018As long as one stays on the level of what can be done by going to menus and selecting respective commands, the "Go Box" works as designed. E.g., the command "open ESV" + click on "Go" (or hit "Enter") opens the ESV Bible (since it is the top option), same is true if I type just the official abbreviation ("ESV", or "NKJV", "LUT1912", etc.) ...
On the other hand, the Go Box offers options for some commands that could be useful and which a user might not know the exact wording needed to open it directly ... after a short moment, such options are displayed in a drop down list, and the user can easily select which command he/she would like to be executed.
I have the impression that some are trying to push a "power user trick" from M. Proctor about the "Go Box" beyond its limitations (such as trying to use it for what the "Search" tool is designed?
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
Could it be that much of the discussion about the "Go Box" / "Command Box" is actually "beside the point" ?? I
Wolfgang, I know you're hot on the trail. But remember, this thread (Logos 10) is about what customers would PREFER (for you, not, I assume). The earlier design/intent was years back, and is always discussable as to a good idea (or not).
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MJ. Smith said:
I had trouble understanding my results because I:
- forgot the setting for match case
- forgot the setting for match all forms
Yes, those settings are hidden in the panel menu, something I've complained about for decades. They are a major stumbling block to learning to use the search.
Just drawing out that suggested improvement (stop hiding those settings) for anyone who may have missed it and noting my support for it.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
It seems to me that users are mistaking the Go Box as a kind of Search tool and want it to do things which it was not meant to accomplish.
My assessment as well.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well.... Now I am convinced.... if one doesn't know anything... then there is not a "quick and dirty" solution to the problem.. lol [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Nice! (But are long beards and cigars required, or just optional?)
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xnman said:
if one doesn't know anything... then there is not a "quick and dirty" solution to the problem
Depends on the willingness and speed of learning. My Dad was a cattle rancher who in retirement became the county computer nerd - testing farm software for the state agricultural college, setting up computers for the museum and county auditor, going into the schools daily to solve computer problems for the kids and staff. He was nearly 80 when given the school job which required Mac knowledge plus educational software he'd never seen. No problem, he was a quick learner.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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So, I noticed that FL is having a 30% off sale for Logos 9 packages. I recall that previously this happened shortly before the release of a new version. If that holds true, I wonder if my original post of L10 showing up on October 24 will soon be proven/disproven.
Though, this year, I don't think I'm in the financial position to take advantage of either the sale or purchasing the new version. [:(]
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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Budgeting for the full feature set as I am not really in need of any base packages. Have had a ball acquiring a few of the Legacy packages this year at great prices thus I only have a few resources on my radar, but most of them are revisions or newer releases that don't find themselves packaged up much.
Excited by the prospect of a new release.
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MJ. Smith said:Wolfgang Schneider said:
It seems to me that users are mistaking the Go Box as a kind of Search tool and want it to do things which it was not meant to accomplish.
My assessment as well.
Which may suggest that a similarly placed search box would be helpful to a lot of users.
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