*IMPORTANT* - New version numbers for Logos/Verbum software
Comments
-
DMB said:
Numbers having no meaning are so much better?
I don't know but potentially yes. We'll see.
DMB said:I just wonder where Marketing is going to end up without their software updates.
It will be interesting to see how they focus on features and resources. However, marketing has always been a mystery to me so I don't expect much change in my comprehension.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
It will be interesting to see how they focus on features and resources. However, marketing has always been a mystery to me so I don't expect but change in my comprehension.
Yep. And no need for Marketing to even wait. Ship '22' yesterday! See what happens. Which BTW, 22 is still buggy and we're approaching (slowly) free 23. I would have loved to stay on 19.
I completely refuse Mobile 21. I'm guessing maybe Mobile 26 or so.
0 -
Andrew Batishko said:
The intent is to eliminate the idea of "pairing". Everyone with a supported version of the software will just have "the latest version of the software". Then when we talk about 11, it's obvious that we're talking about the product. There won't be any need to associate Logos 11 with a particular version of the software.
Andrew Batishko said:DMB said:But down the road a 'user' (aka customer) will have a problem, you'll ask which version, they'll say 67, you'll say you should upgrade to 81, they'll say, their PC won't, and then what? Try to figure out what 67 did? Discuss 72 vs 69? For what?
The same answer we give now if the user is looking for support and they say they're running version 8.17. We tell them that they are not running a supported version and that they will need to update.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007391412-About-Free-Support
Andrew Batishko said:... The point is that there will be a single supported version rather than multiple supported versions. Obviously there will always be some people who choose to run older versions of the software. That has nothing to do with this versioning conversation.
Andrew Batishko said:.... Ignore all the people who are not running the latest version of L9 or L10. We want to get all those people who are currently running the latest version of L9 or L10 (excluding those who are going through gymnastics to ensure that they are running L9 despite having a license for L10) onto a single version.
To state it another way, we want a single current supported version, not two.
In terms of the Free Support article, then, you will want to support version 23, remove mention of Logos 9.0+, and update supported OS? But what will you put in Maintenance e.g. Logos 9.17?
And when you move to version 24 as the "single current supported version", will v.23 be Unsupported or Maintenance?
The "gymnastics" I go through to retain L9 is so that I can support that group of users in the "Supported" Logos 9 Forum without relying on memory. When version 23 arrives those users will have to learn to chip into the Logos 10 Forum as they will be on the same software?! Sorry, I'm getting confused as the feature set will determine the Forum because users won't have to associate it with the software version. So they will stay in the Logos 9 Forum and Logos 8 users will stay in the Logos 8 Forum.... or will there be a single Desktop forum?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:Dave Hooton said:
Users often don't know what Feature set they have when features do not work in the software and FL would help here if the About page gave them an accurate summary rather than "Verbum Cloud" or "Logos Cloud" (in my case). Will you continue to show the internal Software build e.g. 10.2.0.0014 as well as Version 22?
It's difficult doing that, because many users have a combination of different feature sets (e.g. L8 Full Feature Set + L9 Basic Featureset + L10 Starter Feature Set).
The latest Feature set is all that is necessary e.g. the L10 Starter Feature Set from your example, Verbum Cloud 9.
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:Dave Hooton said:Release History should also show the Logos feature version for which they were designed e.g. v22 for Logos/Verbum 10.
All our software updates will are designed to work with any feature sets (though improvements to paid-for-features will only be accessible to people who have paid for that feature, of course). New feature sets (and sometimes new resources) will require the latest version of the software.
Yes, but earlier software versions were not designed for Logos/Verbum 10 and it will be important for Forum support users to know that versions 37, 38, 39, etc. were designed for Logos/Verbum 11.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:JT (alabama24) said:
Do you anticipate stopping the behavior of not allowing users to update during the next cycle? Or will users have to go from (for the sake of the argument) from v. 35 to v. 38?
Ideally, we like to make future software updates available to everyone straight away. But given all the additional work required around the time of a major launch, I don't know whether that's practical.
That's a significant spike in your intent of all users being on the same version irrespective of feature set. Your implication is that users that buy-in to the latest features will receive the latest software and other users could be updated on a scheduled basis, perhaps skipping a version or two as happens currently?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Dave Hooton said:
The latest Feature set is all that is necessary e.g. the L10 Starter Feature Set from your example, Verbum Cloud 9.
Okay you've confused me -- are you saying that all features of the L8 full feature set are included in the L10 starter feature set?
Dave Hooton said:but earlier software versions were not designed for Logos/Verbum 10 and it will be important for Forum support users to know that versions 37, 38, 39, etc. were designed for Logos/Verbum 11.
Isn't it the responsibility of the user refusing updates to keep track of where they hit the "freeze button"? The assumption would be that the forums support:
- the current beta
- the current version
- the person having trouble installing the current version
- the person on old hardware that is frozen in time ... to a reasonable extent
- the person who by choice is running an old and unsupported version and refuses to update to a supported version ... I tend to think of this group as also choosing to be their own tech support (unless the problem happens to interest me).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ. Smith said:Dave Hooton said:
The latest Feature set is all that is necessary e.g. the L10 Starter Feature Set from your example, Verbum Cloud 9.
Okay you've confused me -- are you saying that all features of the L8 full feature set are included in the L10 starter feature set?
No! But we know the user has L10 Starter Features and that could explain certain issues they may be having on the current, automatically updated, software version!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Dave Hooton said:
No! But we know the user has L10 Starter Features and that could explain certain issues they may be having on the current, automatically updated, software version!
Sorry, but I'm feeling dense. How is that any different than the current situation - the morphology search document and the sermon manager and the manuscript explorer all are features from different releases IIRC.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ. Smith said:Dave Hooton said:
No! But we know the user has L10 Starter Features and that could explain certain issues they may be having on the current, automatically updated, software version!
1. They have to be on an L10 compatible software version (can't be L9 software and L11 hasn't been released).
2. It will explain why certain features are greyed out or give a message
3. Knowing the latest is L8/9 Full Feature will help explain the bewilderment over the new Search Syntax!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
MJ. Smith said:Dave Hooton said:
but earlier software versions were not designed for Logos/Verbum 10 and it will be important for Forum support users to know that versions 37, 38, 39, etc. were designed for Logos/Verbum 11.
Actually, if FL maintain Logos 10 Release Notes as is then we will have that information implicitly + continuing with Logos 11 Release Notes at the appropriate time.
MJ. Smith said:Isn't it the responsibility of the user refusing updates to keep track of where they hit the "freeze button"? The assumption would be that the forums support:
You've over complicated my need-to-know. But... I know where I hit the freeze button with Logos 9 and refused to update to Logos 10 (it actually starts with the Logos 10 Logo).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
After reading 70+ posts, I think I understand what Faithlife is thinking, but I definitely didn't near the beginning.
Mark et al., will there be a second single post explanation of all this, perhaps learning from all the questions and concerns raised in this thread, put somewhere? Please?
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
0 -
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
To clarify Bradley's point about rolling out in stages:
- Stage 1: Version 22 as an automatic update to those running 10.x.
- Stage 2: Version 23 as
- an automatic update to those running 9.x, 10.x, or 22
- an optional update to those running 8.x or earlier
So what if you're an L9 user who purchased L9 towards the end of the 2-year (e.g. during the Aug 2022 sale) rather than being an early adopter because you don't want to deal with all the bugs and big changes that get pushed out every 6 weeks, but you have automatic updates turned on. You have no intention of upgading to L10 early in the 2-year cycle because you don't want all the new bugs that come with a new release, but then your software automatically updates to 23 in Feb and all the new bugs are forced on you. Won't you be a pretty unhappy customer?
I think this scheme would be perfectly fine if FL didn't release new versions so unfinished and riddled with bugs and then push out more new bugs with each 6-week update faster than you fix the old ones. I think automatically updating L9 users to 23 in February is going to catch a lot of L9 users off guard since not everyone hangs out on the forums on a regular basis (even if you send an email it may be missed). Maybe you should make the L9 update to 23 optional as well so that folks can decide if they want all the new bugs or not.
0 -
Kiyah said:
... have no intention of upgading to L10 early in the 2-year cycle because you don't want all the new bugs that come with a new release, but then your software automatically updates to 23 in Feb and all the new bugs are forced on you. Won't you be a pretty unhappy customer?
I think this scheme would be perfectly fine if FL didn't release new versions so unfinished and riddled with bugs and then push out more new bugs with each 6-week update faster than you fix the old ones. ...
I assume, true, if customers have their settings for ... use internet? Auto-start downloads? Hard to guess what most of the settings mean. Verbum Help didn't help.
I'll turn mine off pretty soon ... hoping they are still fixing bugs for now. After that, of course no book purchases, if no use internet.
The idea is to force '23'. Book purchasing is not part of the conversation, per staff.
0 -
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
To clarify Bradley's point about rolling out in stages:
- Stage 1: Version 22 as an automatic update to those running 10.x.
- Stage 2: Version 23 as
- an automatic update to those running 9.x, 10.x, or 22
I really do not want Logos to automatically update. I don't mind updates and I understand they are necessary, however, I want to decide when the update happens and the option to decline.
0 -
Ronald Quick said:
I really do not want Logos to automatically update.
It already does. The change they are implementing is:
- currently if a person has not purchased an L10 package (including the free engine upgrade option), the L10 update will not upgrade their L9 or prior installation
- going forward version 22 will update in the current manner
- further forward version 23 will update as currently is done plus it will update L9 installations, essentially giving them the free L10 engine without going through the purchase for zero dollars which many users did not understand.
I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that they will check that your machine meets the minimum requirements before updating.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Ronald Quick said:
I really do not want Logos to automatically update. I don't mind updates and I understand they are necessary, however, I want to decide when the update happens and the option to decline.
There isn’t a change in what you are talking about. There are two senses of “automatic“ being discussed.
1. Mark means “automatic: users won’t have to “buy” something to receive the update.”
2. You are saying you don’t want the engine to update without your permission. There is a setting to make that happen. However:
3. Some users want a separation of resource and software updates. That is something different and would be a different behavior than the status quo.
0 -
JT (alabama24) said:
2. You are saying you don’t want the engine to update without your permission. There is a setting to make that happen. However:
3. Some users want a separation of resource and software updates. That is something different and would be a different behavior than the status quo.
I'm not sure I follow - maybe I don't know which setting you are referring to.
We can stop downloads happening automatically or disable Internet use (which would stop a software update taking place). But, as you say, we can't separate out resource updates and software updates.
So, before this change, one could choose to stay using an earlier version of the engine (by not purchasing L9 Basic) but still get resource updates. With this change I don't see how that would work. If I am correct, that is a change in behaviour.
0 -
Graham Criddle said:
But, as you say, we can't separate out resource updates and software updates.
But we could back in the Libronix days.
I'm just saying.
0 -
Fun reading this... Very Agile conversation, although parts of it felt like being in middle of a rugby Scrum. I think that this will make the sprinting process of the game afoot easier for the dev team and make reading and searching our massive libraries faster and better in the long run. That being said... I still have to go to pick and pull yards to get parts for my 1973 Super Beetle and put lead additives in my fuel to make it run smooth because Volkswagen ain't making parts for it anymore and the government won't let me buy any "real" gasoline. I drive my newer Volkswagens as every day transportation, but when the weather is right, I love rolling the windows down and popping an Aerosmith 8-track into the dash of that '73. My point is that I have been driving Volkswagens for a long, long time. I like them. They service me well.
I have been using Logos a long, long time. It continues to service me well. Accordance looks and feels just like it did 20+ years ago. I hardly touch it anymore even though I upgrade it to keep it current. Bibleworks, WordSearch, Quickverse, Loizeaux, and others are no more. I can still use the books I bought from Logos nearly 30 years ago in Logos Bible Software 22.0 Beta 1; 22.0.8. They rescued and ported the thousands of Wordsearch books previously purchased at no cost to me. I update my hardware when my Bible software needs require it, the same way I replace my Volkswagen when my reliable transportation needs require it
Faithlife can version number their software however they see fit to create and deliver the working software that brings us here to have these discussions and which we use to create the sermons we preach. Software Iteration numbering isn't bothering me. Logos has always allowed me to spend less time with my computer and more time with my people.
0 -
Thanks JT it’s a little bit clearer but my head still hurts. I’ll just have to wait till it all plays out.
JT (alabama24) said:Simon’s Brother said:I’m in the camp that is totally confused by this change and don’t understand what was broken and needed fixing.
David Wanat said:I’m also among the confused.
Hopefully I can provide a concise explaination of "the problem."
FL had a nomenclature problem. They have used "Logos 10" (and the previous branding) to refer to both the software engine AND the libraries/datasets. It is common to have users on outdated versions of the engine simply because they did not know that they were eligible for free updates. They did not purchase an L9 or L10 library or feature set, so of course (in their mind) they are using an L8 software engine.
This is a step in the right direction to alleviate that problem. I do recognize that it will provide some confusion at first.
Mark has not responded to me yet, but I believe the new nomenclature for the software engine will be based upon the year. The reason for "22" is becasue we are in 2022. The version release numbers will also be helpful to know if a user is out of date. If this system were already in place, it would be easy to know that a user were out of date if he said he was on build 21.3.
0 -
JT (alabama24) said:
Mark has not responded to me yet, but I believe the new nomenclature for the software engine will be based upon the year. The reason for "22" is because we are in 2022
Mark has responded. The year is irrelevant.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
We're not quite ready to distribute v22 to all users, but we're planning to do that with v23. Things are rolling out in stages.
To clarify Bradley's point about rolling out in stages:
- Stage 1: Version 22 as an automatic update to those running 10.x.
- Stage 2: Version 23 as
- an automatic update to those running 9.x, 10.x, or 22
- an optional update to those running 8.x or earlier
There's a possible stage 3 where we roll out future versions as automatic updates to those currently running earlier versions of the software, but that is far from decided yet. We'll see how users respond to the first two stages before deciding that.
Thanks, this was clear.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
0 -
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
We're not quite ready to distribute v22 to all users, but we're planning to do that with v23. Things are rolling out in stages.
To clarify Bradley's point about rolling out in stages:
- Stage 1: Version 22 as an automatic update to those running 10.x.
- Stage 2: Version 23 as
- an automatic update to those running 9.x, 10.x, or 22
- an optional update to those running 8.x or earlier
There's a possible stage 3 where we roll out future versions as automatic updates to those currently running earlier versions of the software, but that is far from decided yet. We'll see how users respond to the first two stages before deciding that.
Thanks, this was clear.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
0 -
Graham Criddle said:
We can stop downloads happening automatically or disable Internet use (which would stop a software update taking place).
That is what I am saying.
Graham Criddle said:So, before this change, one could choose to stay using an earlier version of the engine (by not purchasing L9 Basic) but still get resource updates.
Well, kind of. They would get any updates to the L9 engine being pushed. This change is eliminating FL's need to maintain two versions of the software.
0 -
JT (alabama24) said:
This change is eliminating FL's need to maintain two versions of the software.
And reducing those pesky book sales too! I'm already planning a Faithlife free 2023! I learned during my L7 sojourn, life is so much better (and the CC bill so much shorter).
And not limited to Faithlife. A good Go app re-programmed, plus went to subscription. I pay his subscription (good guy), and use his old app ... like it.
0 -
Graham Criddle said:
We can stop downloads happening automatically or disable Internet use (which would stop a software update taking place). But, as you say, we can't separate out resource updates and software updates.
So, before this change, one could choose to stay using an earlier version of the engine (by not purchasing L9 Basic) but still get resource updates. With this change I don't see how that would work. If I am correct, that is a change in behaviour.
Users who want to accomplish this usually set their update channel to an invalid channel using a command such as set update channel to invalid (or any other name you want that isn't default or beta). This means that the application will never find any updates to the software, but you can still download resource updates (and potentially control that by turning off automatic downloads).
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
0 -
Andrew Batishko said:
Users who want to accomplish this usually set their update channel to an invalid channel using a command such as set update channel to invalid (or any other name you want that isn't default or beta). This means that the application will never find any updates to the software, but you can still download resource updates (and potentially control that by turning off automatic downloads).
Well, that should work, thank you. No accidental updates.
0 -
Andrew Batishko said:
Users who want to accomplish this usually set their update channel to an invalid channel
Andrew Batishko said:This means that the application will never find any updates to the software,
Got it! The right command is as follows: set update channel to neo-Luddite
0 -
JT (alabama24) said:
The right command is as follows: set update channel to neo-Luddite
Me no like buggy software and cutesy-ism. Me neo-Luddite! Smiling.
Added:
Today's cute-sy UI-tsie is the expand/collapse arrow, when reading books. The designer carefully made the 'hot' area quite small, so that if you 'miss', it pops you to that section. Then (another cutsie-UI-tsie) you can't go 'back' to where you were. It only knows big sections (articles, pages, etc). And heaven forbid, if you're linked to other resources.
I'm glad I'm not on a touch screen.
OK, back to neo-Luddite-ity.
0
