Removing titles from the Logos platform
Comments
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Are you able to give a comment and give further clarity?
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Protestia said:
Are you able to give a comment and give further clarity?
Protestia, I don't think the forums are an appropriate place for a "reporter" to try to get information. Please go through the regular company channels not the peer-to-peer help channel.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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We have tried contacting Logos multiple times through multiple channels over multiple months for comment or clarity. Consider this a perfectly appropriate last ditch effort.
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@Matt Bennett
PROTESTIA, quit trying to slam Logos!
Regrettably, I checked YOUR INTEGRITY and found it 100% LACKING. I looked for EACH of the publications your "staff writer" identified on your 5.11.2024 "news" article about Logos. I didn't find a single one of the titles you identified as being on Logos in the Logos online catalog found at www.logos.com. I gave you every chance to be right > I searched by title...NONE. I searched by author...NONE. I searched by publisher...some had other appropriate publications but NONE OF THE TITLES you cited in your article are on the Logos catalog page. NONE! To be clear: NOT ONE PUBLICATION YOU CITED IN YOUR 5.11.2024 WAS ON THE LOGOS.COM ONLINE CATALOG PAGE. So, QUIT SLAMMING LOGOS.
If you do make any valid observations, please do as Matt Bennett has directed everyone to do...report it to titlereview@logos.com and Logos staff will look into the matter. JUST STOP THE TRASH TALK...on this forum and through your website. This behavior is a disgrace!
By the way, I tried to message you directly on your website but the Contact Us page found at protestia.com is intended only for submitting an article or writing for you. I didn't see anywhere one could express their perspective about your editorial or "news reporting" comments about another organization. Odd, though, that you would so quickly jump on LOGOS' website to slam them when you won't allow that on your own website. I also noticed you have all "Corrections/Retractions" well hidden under your "About" tab on your homepage rather than making those corrections/retractions as prominent as the article that provided wrong or false information. From my observation, it seems your organization is all about trying to report "dirt" on people and organizations. That's a shame. While I certainly value discernment, I also value integrity.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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This is simply not true. You can contact us at our email editor@protestia.com or DM us on Twitter about anything. We are imminently reachable and accessible.
Second of all, we use the wayback machine and internet archive for this very reason, so here are some links, demonstrating the books were live and sellable when we posted the article, but now have been deleted. Please see the time stamps.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240512031544/https://general.ebooks.faithlife.com/product/306816/the-scorpions-sweet-venom-the-diary-of-a-brazilian-call-girl
https://web.archive.org/web/20240512030836/https://www.logos.com/product/307643/milk-fed
In fact, we have a new article up right now with a fresh batch of books. Feel free to check it out, you'll see our integrity is immaculate.0 -
Also you're confused about our headings. The contact section leads here. The 'Write for us" has a separate page, which you were likely clicking on.
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Also you're confused about our headings. The contact section leads here. The 'Write for us" has a separate page, which you were likely clicking on.
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I'm certainly not in the habit of wasting my time searching for material that I don't think should be available via Logos. However, I do have a bookmark that searches for unowned resources on sale by savings in the Faithlife ebooks store. Material that didn't seem appropriate seems to have now disappeared. Looking at a post I started a while back, none of the examples I listed are still available.
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Matt Bennett said:
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We're actively removing the items that violate our distribution policy and looking into how we can continue improving our publishing process.
Thank you! In my view, the automated process of adding books should only apply to publishers that have earned a really solid reputation. There is too much junk out there to assume that filters will catch all books that violate your distribution policy. Even if it catches 99%, 1 out of 100 is too much for the Logos marketplace.
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I can confirm that "The Stripper’s Guide to Looking Great Naked?" and "The Book of the P___s" were there last night. I found them and had posted about them, but then I reconsidered and deleted my post.
Protestia must be doing a service for Logos, because Logos seems to be quite on top of taking down any of the books it/he posts that are inappropriate, as those are both gone now.
Most of the others I found last night are also gone already, but one is still up there. I will let Logos know about it privately.
Protestia seems to have a different motive than doing a service for Logos, though, as he/it chooses to publicly post all these titles on a blog to smear Logos, rather than letting them know through the appropriate channel (titlereview@logos.com).
Aaron Hamilton said:In my view, the automated process of adding books should only apply to publishers that have earned a really solid reputation. There is too much junk out there to assume that filters will catch all books that violate your distribution policy.
I agree!
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I've come to the conclusion you're just an attention seeker like pulpit and pen whose rag isn't worth the space it takes up on the internet.Protestia said:Also you're confused about our headings.
I would sooner rub my eyes on a cheese grater than ever visit your site again.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
I would sooner rub my eyes on a cheese grater than ever visit your site again.
Ouch. Please do the right thing and abstain from participating in either of those activities.
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We are both sorry and frustrated that additional illicit content has gotten through our filters. We’re taking this seriously, and our team is working on getting it right. Further, we’re investing in strengthening our filters so the Logos platform is always a safe place for going deeper in the Bible.
Our previous efforts to tighten our filters are still working as intended, but we’ve found additional ways that content has been sneaking through, and we are closing those gaps.
You can see a longer summary of the issue and the action we’re taking on our newsroom, but here’s a briefer description of the issue:
As we’ve mentioned before, we use BISAC categories provided by publishers to automatically weed out books that fall into categories that don’t adhere to our distribution philosophy. However, some of the inappropriate titles we removed today are coded to seemingly innocuous BISAC categories like biography, health and fitness, and performing arts.
While adjusting our BISAC category exclusions has helped, it has proven to be insufficient. We’re now working on adding a regular manual review to our process. We’re also developing a new content vetting tool to scan titles and descriptions of all ebook titles before they go live and send any titles flagged to our team for manual review.
Thank you for your patience and support. We will continue working to improve our content filtering process, and we’ll post updates here and in the newsroom.
VP, Content Products
Logos
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Matt Bennett said:
While adjusting our BISAC category exclusions has helped, it has proven to be insufficient. We’re now working on adding a regular manual review to our process. We’re also developing a new content vetting tool to scan titles and descriptions of all ebook titles before they go live and send any titles flagged to our team for manual review.
This sounds fantastic. Thank you for listening, understanding, and responding seriously to this concern. While in my view these steps should have long been in place, I strongly adhere to the philosophy of "better late than never." So, thanks again! [:D]
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Matt Bennett said:
As we’ve mentioned before, we use BISAC categories provided by publishers to automatically weed out books that fall into categories that don’t adhere to our distribution philosophy. However, some of the inappropriate titles we removed today are coded to seemingly innocuous BISAC categories like biography, health and fitness, and performing arts.
While adjusting our BISAC category exclusions has helped, it has proven to be insufficient. We’re now working on adding a regular manual review to our process. We’re also developing a new content vetting tool to scan titles and descriptions of all ebook titles before they go live and send any titles flagged to our team for manual review.
Thanks for elaborating on your filter process; I always assumed it worked like the vetting tool you are now developing, leaving me confounded why such titles were still getting through. Like Aaron, I think this tool should have been in place long before, but reactive is certainly better than indifferent.
(There's some irony here; books almost nobody wants are consistently sneaking in, while books many of us want are going away ... 😞)
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We have a fundamental disagreement about how all this should work. The onus should be on a Christian org to be diligent in removing pornography and erotic books proactively, not handing off that duty to its intrepid readers. It's one thing to use the community as a one-off and last ditch effort, but the reality is if it weren't for us, there would still be thousands of wicked books on their website.
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You are certainly welcome to this view, even though we have been perfectly gentlemanly in our doings.
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Protestia said:
We have a fundamental disagreement about how all this should work. The onus should be on a Christian org to be diligent in removing pornography and erotic books proactively, not handing off that duty to its intrepid readers. It's one thing to use the community as a one-off and last ditch effort, but the reality is if it weren't for us, there would still be thousands of wicked books on their website.
I was recently part of a church fellowship where a group of a dozen or so seemed to always assume the worst of the pastor and their spouse. As Christians I believe we should assume the best of our brothers and sisters in Christ. It's obvious that Logos' Faithlife eBooks store was flawed in that it allowed publishers the ability to offer inappropriate content. But this has been recognised and new processes are in place. I also run a youth club, where we thought we had thought through safety measures for every situation that might arise. However, issues arose that we hadn't considered and we then needed to adapt and introduce new measures. Logos have had to do similar. I too was surprised that certain content was listed, but I now understand why. My bigger gripe is why certain books by Christian authors, published by Christian publishers doesn't make it to Logos - even when those authors and publishers are well established within Logos.
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Protestia said:
It's one thing to use the community as a one-off and last ditch effort, but the reality is if it weren't for us, there would still be thousands of wicked books on their website.
First, they are not on a Logos website but on an ebook site owned by the same company to provide general interest books.
Second, most users never encounter these books because we are not looking for the topics that bring them up. However, you highlight these books and bring them to the attention of people who would otherwise never find them i.e. you essentially advertise them.
Third, those who use the website regularly know that a simple report gets them removed quickly without advertising them. Or they discover that the books do not violate the rules for the sites (e.g. the fairy book).
Fourth, wickedness requires a consciousness ... I've never seen a wicked book, only books with undesirable content.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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My view is that this is not some great conspiracy. Maybe some bad management, lack of sophisticated systems or apathy on certain points, only Logos knows. Logos has been a force for good over the years, and like any company, they will have ups and downs as the digital publishing world changes.
And if I happen to stumble across one of these titles in question, I can practice my ultimate consumer right and that is don’t purchase it. I move on and in some instances I might file a complaint or a report. Ultimately I could stop buying products at all if I felt Logos was no longer a reputable vendor
I do the same when I go to other websites If I see something I don’t think reflects my values or beliefs, I move on. I will not be reading blogs about this for the reasons that have been reflected by others in the Logos community. It is not really very helpful.
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abondservant said:
I've come to the conclusion you're just an attention seeker like pulpit and pen whose rag isn't worth the space it takes up on the internet.Protestia said:Also you're confused about our headings.
Agreed. Unfortunately for Logos this 'rag' will continue to deliberately search for porn on Logos.com so that he can have sensational content for his site.
I think that once Logos has done everything reasonable to prevent inappropriate content (I agree with a combination of automatic filters and periodic manual reviews), they should leave it at that. No system is perfect and they can't prevent every possible error. Users can still report errors they catch to the email Matt provided. Further attempts to sensationalize the issue should be ignored, especially from folks who just want to drum up traffic for their websites.
It's clear that Logos is taking this seriously and doing what they can. After this point, people accusing them of malintent are being disingenuous.
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Matt Bennett said:
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We have turned off the automatic feed for publishers and publishing imprints with multiple titles that violate our distribution philosophy. This means that titles from these publishers will be reviewed to ensure nothing erotic/graphic or violent makes it to our website.
Any way to get the titles of some of these erotic/graphic or violent titles?
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