Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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I don't see why Logos can't offer a base subscription option with just AI services. Renting resources on top of that could be optional. A basic 500 resources could be recommended and included as the default, with personalizable options to eliminate the resource rental from the subscription cost or add to it for a higher monthly subscription cost. Including the option to receive immediate feature updates/upgrades could be another optional addition to the subscription cost. Then, feature set purchases could be offered for those who do not want to subscribe for immediate feature updates.
The bottom line is that Logos is trying to overhaul things way too much with one broad stroke. Users need options. This will become apparent sooner or later. But for the sake of everyone, I hope Logos realizes this sooner (before the exodus begins) and presents options in the Fall right away when the subscription plans are officially released.0 -
If the books were included as a free rental with the subscription, that would change things in my opinion; yes. One could not make the case that one is paying twice if the resources are free. Still I'm not entirely sure how they could be free, as the company will still have to pay for the materials. So the costs will be passed down to customers somehow or another.
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Will Logos continue to release non-subscription packages every 2-3 years that incorporate new features which are not cloud-reliant, as well as bug fixes?
"Packages" is a bit ambiguous, since Logos is made up of three parts:
- The free software applications
- The feature sets to enable premium functionality
- The libraries of books
Here's our current thinking on each:
1. Software: Since most users are on the same version of the software and we regularly release bug fixes and maintenance improvements, everyone would continue to get those regardless of whether they're a free user, a subscriber, or a base package owner not on a subscription.
2. Feature Sets: This is how we grant access to the premium features not included in the free software applications. What we're currently exploring is moving new feature set licensing to subscription only (while continue to respect users' existing feature set licenses), though it's possible that there could be a smaller place for ongoing perpetually licensed feature sets for some offline features. That's the major topic of this thread.
3. Libraries: We plan to continue to offer libraries via our existing perpetual licensing model along with dynamic pricing. We haven't yet decided if we'll refresh them every two years, move to an annual release, or something else.
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If the books were included as a free rental with the subscription, that would change things in my opinion; yes. One could not make the case that one is paying twice if the resources are free. Still I'm not entirely sure how they could be free, as the company will still have to pay for the materials. So the costs will be passed down to customers somehow or another.
Thanks for following up. The content we'd include will mostly have no incremental costs to us.
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2. Feature Sets: This is how we grant access to the premium features not included in the free software applications. What we're currently exploring is moving new feature set licensing to subscription only (while continue to respect users' existing feature set licenses), though it's possible that there could be a smaller place for ongoing perpetually licensed feature sets for some offline features. That's the major topic of this thread.
This is indeed the main issue.
Over the last few years and with the Logos version now in the double digits (10), I have sometimes wondered to myself: are they running out of new features to add? It must be a challenge to continuously come up with new ideas for features to develop and implement every two years. I feel like we've already passed the point of diminishing returns on new data sets...
(I still don't want to subscribe just to get AI features.)
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Logos has already decoupled bug fixes and software versions from the new releases, which is why you are on Logos 33.x not 10. They have committed to continue making updates for OS upgrades and bug fixes for existing customers because the software engine itself is, and always has been, free.
This seems to be quite a critical point which has not been apparent to me up to now.
- Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
- Do those who stayed on Logos 9 still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
- If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
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Thanks Phil and I do understand what you are saying (as far as you've gone with it).
Let me try to pin this down a bit.
"New features" might be classified in three categories:
1. Those that naturally and readily *could* (from a programming and horsepower perspective) be incorporated in the local-PC engine+dataset, without requiring a subscription, but activated alternatively by "packaged" releases (a la L11, L12) every 2-3 years.
2. Those that absolutely *require* online cloud support (LLM AI) with lots of CPU horsepower, and naturally would be offered only via usage-metered subscription.
3. Those that might take a simplified local-PC form, but could be enhanced by online AI.
My concern and core question is relative to #1 ... have y'all FIRMLY DECIDED yet whether you will (essentially) ALWAYS include new features in category #1 in the local-PC engine? If so, hurrah! If not ... then imo you're pulling the rug out from longtime users.
MANY OF US DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO BE ONLINE to use the software.
I truly, sincerely hope and request that y'all take a path that provides offline use of new features that are practical to implement on the local-PC.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Exactly right. It's an aid, not an answer.
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This is indeed the main issue. [feature policy]
Phil earlier called it "feature gate" ... more like Featuregate. Bad humor.
So, far we're on p20 and we seem to be at 'all unpaid-for features (existing and new) are headed for subscription (but they're still thinking)'.
I'm personally ok with that ... I ended my feature-itis maybe 4 years back. If they want subscribers to fund my Logos, fine by me. Well, that is what it works out to, if their vision works. Their older visions didn't.
But what DOES concern me, is younger pastors. A gentleman mentioned this, a ways back. Bible software, early on, locked digital books to resellers (as also Amazon). You needed to keep a close eye on 'how much' and company survival.
The new pastor now also needs to keep an eye on subscription price (like apartment rent). And changing content. And can a new owner ... well, start thinking again.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks for following up. The content we'd include will mostly have no incremental costs to us.
That's good to hear, and that makes sense. I have no qualms about constructing a base package of resources to get new users going in a way that would not generate significant costs to the company. In fact that sounds like a fantastic idea. It also does not diminish the value of purchasing the materials, as owning a resource is obviously not the same thing as getting a free rental. For example, if someone were to unsubscribe for a year, they would still be able to access those basic resources if they have been purchased.
The situation with the feature sets seems a bit more complex. I imagine one possible solution may be to offer a credit corresponding to how much money one has spent or will spend on those sets. Future feature set purchases could be treated the same as past feature set purchases in this regard: subscribers could receive a discount on the purchase of feature sets, and purchasers of feature sets could receive a credit towards the subscription packages. Again, the discount/credit would not be 100%, as owning something is obviously different from purchasing it. In my opinion, this presents a win/win. Users would have options, and Logos would have the opportunity to get paid twice for the same features. However, users would be paying twice of their own accord and with full knowledge of the situation. For example, a pastor taking a one-year sabbatical may want to purchase a feature set for their time off while temporarily canceling their subscription. Every time there is an interruption in the subscription, the Logos software would only cease to include the features that have not been purchased.
In conclusion, I would like to thank you for taking the time to address my thoughts and concerns. I have an enormous amount of respect and appreciation for your willingness to engage in this type of dialogue. It is, however, not an exaggeration to say that there is a large percentage of users who are very concerned about this transition. So, since feedback is being requested, my advice would be to tread gently. I believe it's possible for this transition to happen smoothly. But I also think it could very easily be quite a rocky one.0 -
as owning something is obviously different from purchasing it
[^o)] Let me rethink that... Owning something is obviously different from renting it.
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I was saving a few hundred dollars for Logos 11? Should I stop saving money for Logos 11 since it will be a monthly subscription?
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Phil, thank you for bringing some clarity to this. For me, locking down the policies you articulate in numbers 1 and 3 would go a long way towards making me more comfortable.
1. Software: Since most users are on the same version of the software and we regularly release bug fixes and maintenance improvements, everyone would continue to get those regardless of whether they're a free user, a subscriber, or a base package owner not on a subscription.
3. Libraries: We plan to continue to offer libraries via our existing perpetual licensing model along with dynamic pricing. We haven't yet decided if we'll refresh them every two years, move to an annual release, or something else.
While I have a strong preference for being able to purchase a perpetual license for future offline features, it's the policies around the software and the libraries that are potential deal-breakers for me.
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Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
No, but rather they could be, if they chose to take the free update (or were on an operating system version that supported it).
Do those who stayed on [the] Logos 9 [feature set] still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
That's correct. The license gating is at the feature and sub-feature level, such that new functionality simply won't be turned on without the new licenses.
If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
That's correct. There are some basic updates that we choose not to gate, which everyone gets by updating to the latest software application, but >95% of the new value is gated and available only to paying customers.
If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
That's correct.
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Mark and Phil:
In the FAQ section of the early-access page, it says under "What is Logos Pro" ..
"... These subscriptions mean you don’t have to wait until the next major version of Logos to get new and improved features. ..."
The IMPLICATION is that the "new and improved features" (not including AI-cloud services of course) WILL be in the "next major version of Logos", and also implicitly states that there WILL BE ongoing major versions (ie L11, L12).
Are both of those implications true, or is decision-making still in flux about them?
Please clarify as much as possible. Thanks.
PS: I decided to sign up for the early $9.99, to give it a fair try, AFTER watching the video clips that Josh posted at MP Seminars. Y'all might want to borrow those to help people see the tools in action. It *appears* that the AI can be "directed/restricted" to create its various summaries based solely on the user's owned resources, or a subset of them, or just a section or chapter of a particular book, or a sermon that they've written. Thus the AI's "summaries" don't necessarily suck in wild stuff from random web articles. THAT's GOOD. I'll be testing the early-access to see if the "search sets" are more flexible than Josh shows ... ie, a filterable checkbox-list of Library resources as a search option, or portions of a chapter, or maybe a collection of chapters from various books, etc.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
I have sometimes wondered to myself: are they running out of new features to add? It must be a challenge to continuously come up with new ideas for features to develop and implement every two years.
We're definitely not running out of ideas. We could easily fill up 10–20 years of roadmap work for the ~40 developers working on our core Logos product. You're right, though, that we're doing fewer brand-new feature additions and more focused on evolving the fundamental components of the application to ensure they're rock solid and ready for the next generation of global Bible students.
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Mark / Phil:
I've checked ... of the 430+ books that Logos Pro is providing for $9/99/month, there is only ONE BOOK that is not marked as "Already in your library" for me (The Old Covenant, Commonly Called the Old Testament: Translated from the Septuagint)
So, it would seem reasonable to me that I should be paying a significantly lower monthly price than someone who has very few or none of those 430+ books in their library already.
Will that be true in the future? Will a $4.99/month option be available? I'll be happy to purchase that one book if necessary. [;)]
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
No, but rather they could be, if they chose to take the free update (or were on an operating system version that supported it).
Do those who stayed on [the] Logos 9 [feature set] still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
That's correct. The license gating is at the feature and sub-feature level, such that new functionality simply won't be turned on without the new licenses.
If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
That's correct. There are some basic updates that we choose not to gate, which everyone gets by updating to the latest software application, but >95% of the new value is gated and available only to paying customers.
If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
That's correct.
Thank you Phil, that puts a significantly different spin on the situation so far as I can see. An ongoing availability of the latest enging together with a commitment to maintain all existing licences and feature sets takes away many of my concerns about buying into Logos.
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Mark / Phil
What about the Mobile version? Since I'm paying the $9.99/month, can I get access to the AI from my iphone or ipad? After all, they already require access to the cloud for the Guide tools.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
No, but rather they could be, if they chose to take the free update (or were on an operating system version that supported it).
Do those who stayed on [the] Logos 9 [feature set] still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
That's correct. The license gating is at the feature and sub-feature level, such that new functionality simply won't be turned on without the new licenses.
If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
That's correct. There are some basic updates that we choose not to gate, which everyone gets by updating to the latest software application, but >95% of the new value is gated and available only to paying customers.
If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
That's correct.
Thank you Phil, that puts a significantly different spin on the situation so far as I can see. An ongoing availability of the latest enging together with a commitment to maintain all existing licences and feature sets takes away many of my concerns about buying into Logos.
I don't know how you could make it any clearer than that.
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1Cor10 31">
Here is a potential solution...No need for subscription, No need for fixed $ amount to be paid by any Logos customers. Customers will be billed $X every time they run some AI feature. Logos can fix $X taking into account the following:
X = Cost paid by Logos to outside vendor to run AI search + Cost to Logos of providing this service by building AI tools + Profits to Logos
Logos can let customers know what $X is upfront.
Simple and perfect. No socialism, no unfairness. Everyone pays exactly for what they get.
Hi Phil and Mark and others!
Any comments on the above pricing scheme?
Let me add a few wrinkles to the above. I'd love your comments on wrinkles below.
First, As an organization, you might feel that if customers are going to be charged for each query (as per my suggestion above), then people may not even use that feature, in which case you won't get any revenue even though the features are valuable. Totally Valid concern. So how about tiered pricing with each tier allowing a certain number of queries. Let's say there are 3 tiers: $5, $10, $15/month. Let's say a customer chose the $10/month tier. You can start a counter with $10 at the beginning of the month. After each use of feature, that counter can keep dropping down. Once the counter hits $0, the customer has to buy more or else have to wait for the next month to use those features. (You can allow for carryover of leftover $ to the next month if you so desire, but you don't need to. It can be a use-it-or-lose-it feature.)
Second...I am not a tech guy, so pardon me. I am basing this wrinkle on one data point. Splunk, a data analytics firm, used to charge firm differential pricing based on how much data they wanted to be analyzed. I think this principle applies to the AI solutions you are offering. Since AI search cost increases in the size of our libraries, how about tiered pricing based on size of our libraries, with higher price being charged for bigger libraries. You can think of this as one type of dynamic pricing. So each person sees a different price depending on size of their library in terms of GB (not number of resources). You can still have 3 tiers as above, but the price of the 3 tiers will be based on size of libraries. So for one person, the 3 tiers offered could be $5, $10, $15. The same 3 tiers for a person with the double the library size would $10, $20, $30.
Would love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
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This seems to be quite a critical point which has not been apparent to me up to now.
- Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
- Do those who stayed on Logos 9 still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
- If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
Yes.
Everybody is on Logos 32 or 33 (depending on if you have beta testing turned on), whether they are on the free version of Logos, Logos 4, Logos 9, Logos 10, whatever. The versions are when they release new collections of features and new books, but the software gets updated more or Iess like clockwork. For a while, early access to the next engine was a perk for purchasers, but after a few months, the new free features and the new engine have always been shipped to everyone. Logos 10 added new features above Logos 9 and gave me a chance to get new books at a discount. But if I had never upgraded, I could still use Logos 5 (my first version) on Windows 11 with the new engine and more features than when I bought it.
I think the reason that was not made more clear for you, as a new user, is because that has always been Logos's practice and this communication was targeted to existing customers. The engine is free, and updates are free. You get all of the features you have paid for. Major releases may add new features, some of which are free and some of which will be turned off unless you pay for them. You will be able to access your books in perpetuity, and the features you have paid for in perpetuity (as they mentioned, occasionally some features get killed because they don't work out and have very few users, but this is very rare and never anything at the core of the software).I'm not Logos staff or an MVP. I have just used it almost every day for almost 10 years as a pastor and writer, and would hate for you to miss out because of a misunderstanding.
Edit: Somehow I missed the last page of this discussion and didn't see that you had already been given an authoritative answer.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Smart Search is working for me in Android. Since mobile doesn't support the sermon editor obviously you won't get those features. Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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There's important nuance to what books we're including in our software subscriptions. You can think of these subscriptions as the evolution of our existing feature sets. Increasingly over the last several major releases, we've been putting books in the feature sets, because those books are essential for enabling features to work. Features are powered by a combination of data (and media) sets and books.
I hope this helps to clarify a bit why there are more books in our feature sets than we've included in the past.
This does help, thanks, and i am perfectly comfortable with resources included for features. Looking forward to seeing what this offers us in the future.
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It *appears* that the AI can be "directed/restricted" to create its various summaries based solely on the user's owned resources, or a subset of them, or just a section or chapter of a particular book, or a sermon that they've written. Thus the AI's "summaries" don't necessarily suck in wild stuff from random web articles. THAT's GOOD.
I too agree — THAT's GOOD. If this were not the case, it is likely that I would not have signed up for the early $9.99. The ability to search for information from my own library as I deem fit, as opposed to “wild stuff from random web articles” is very important to me.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Justin Gatlin ...
I just tried your query and got a different collection of answers, because I have a different library, which makes sense.
However, when I tried a more focused query, attempting to limit the scope of the search to just those authors or books that identify as being in support of "young-earth" ...
"how old was noah when the flood took place, according to young-earth creationists?"
... all it gave me was a bunch of hits that seemed like an answer to a question about old-earth vs young-earth creationists. I tried rephrasing twice and with that "two level" query, the Logos "smart" AI seemed to be unable to answer the question.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Is it permissible to upload a "First Impressions" video? I made one today but want to ensure I'm not breaking any rules as an early access user of Logos Pro.
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... all it gave me was a bunch of hits that seemed like an answer to a question about old-earth vs young-earth creationists. I tried rephrasing twice and with that "two level" query, the Logos "smart" AI seemed to be unable to answer the question.
I think we are getting a little out of scope, so I made a separate thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221665/1290186.aspx#1290186
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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One good thing this thread did for me. I didn't have to watch the SOTU speech this week, as I spent that time reading this instead. :-)
So at least it's reduced my news consumption. :-)
Dr. Nathan Parker
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Mark / Phil
What about the Mobile version? Since I'm paying the $9.99/month, can I get access to the AI from my iphone or ipad? After all, they already require access to the cloud for the Guide tools.
Yes - with some features available today and some arriving in April.
Article summarisation and sermon assistant (iPad) are available today
Smart searching and search results summarisation are due in April
This is outlined in more detail at https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/21081346488205-What-s-included-with-early-access-to-Logos-Pro
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