Logos "we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription"
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Based on the latest update from Logos, it sounds like they are trying to work that out.
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I have no interest in subscribing and have an active interest in avoiding AI usage in general, but I am reassured that they will maintain the standalone, permanent license versions. I want them to make money and support their great product, but subscriptions are a tough sell.
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Evan Kaspar said:
I have no interest in subscribing and have an active interest in avoiding AI usage in general, but I am reassured that they will maintain the standalone, permanent license versions. I want them to make money and support their great product, but subscriptions are a tough sell.
I hope that this is what they mean.... However, while they are working on it - the wording is vague and open to if what we are asking for in Perpetual Licenses is what they are talking about....
My concern is that they are defining the "in some form" Perpetual License as some form of Rent to Own - ignoring the fact that a Subscription is a subscription.... Some subscriptions may have a credit towards ownership program, but it is not the Perpetual License we are asking for....
Anything less than a traditional purchase option will be a smack in the face IMHO
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Evan Kaspar said:
I have no interest in subscribing and have an active interest in avoiding AI usage in general
The old, trusty Google search is going AI Google I/O 2024: New generative AI experiences in Search (blog.google) Actually, you been using rule-based AI for 30+ years without knowing it, and graph-based language models for parsing and translation for only slightly less.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Frank Sauer said:
My concern is that they are defining the "in some form" Perpetual License as some form of Rent to Own - ignoring the fact that a Subscription is a subscription.... Some subscriptions may have a credit towards ownership program, but it is not the Perpetual License we are asking for....
Anything less than a traditional purchase option will be a smack in the face IMHO
Agree. They're playing word games. People are familiar with communicating. Christians have major investments at question. That they save for. There's no mystery. Nor do corporate staffs have problems with analytics, or decision making. More like blowing up their company. Cash flow.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:Frank Sauer said:
My concern is that they are defining the "in some form" Perpetual License as some form of Rent to Own - ignoring the fact that a Subscription is a subscription.... Some subscriptions may have a credit towards ownership program, but it is not the Perpetual License we are asking for....
Anything less than a traditional purchase option will be a smack in the face IMHO
Agree. They're playing word games. People are familiar with communicating. Christians have major investments at question. That they save for. There's no mystery. Nor do corporate staffs have problems with analytics, or decision making. More like blowing up their company. Cash flow.
Yes, the perpetual license "in some form" is certainly not to be taken as the same form as we now know it.
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Anon said:
Yes, the perpetual license "in some form" is certainly not to be taken as the same form as we now know it.
"In some form" does not exclude the form as we know it.
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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The Early Access FAQ seems to put this pretty plainly-
- Will I lose my features, books, or investment in Logos?
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No, your investment in Logos is safe, and you’ll always be able to access your content in Logos for free.
You aren’t required to subscribe to keep your access to content or features you already own. The subscription is for anyone who wants access to the latest version of Logos which will get new features or improvements roughly every six weeks.
If you’ve already purchased Logos packages or feature sets, those are yours to keep—you won’t lose them. You’ll continue to be able to use the features you’ve paid for, regardless of whether you subscribe to the latest version.
- Do I have to subscribe to keep access to Logos?
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No, you won’t be forced to subscribe to Logos.
Unlike most software companies, we make our latest software available to everyone. Even if the last feature set you bought was Logos 4 in 2009 (or even version 1 in 1992!), you’ll continue to receive free app updates, ensuring you can keep using Logos anytime you change computers or upgrade your operating system. You’ll continue to receive bug fixes for free, too. What you won’t get is access to the powerful new and improved features that will be offered in the subscription version of Logos.
- Can I still buy and keep books, or will they be a subscription too?
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None of this changes. You’ll still be able to purchase books, either individually or as a library, and you’ll own them forever.
You’ll still be able to buy permanent access to Logos libraries and any other books from our catalog. In the future, we may add rental options for those who want it, but we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling permanent licenses to books and curated libraries.
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Camtasia is going subscription also and we won’t lose perpetual licenses that were bought before the subscription begins. So maybe people need to stop whining, panicking, worrying and all of the above! Have faith and whatever happens will happen no matter what.
DAL
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DAL said:
Camtasia is going subscription also and we won’t lose perpetual licenses that were bought before the subscription begins. So maybe people need to stop whining, panicking, worrying and all of the above! Have faith and whatever happens will happen no matter what.
DAL
it will end up with the new Logos version release: I am hope Faithlife to shorten the time.
Blessings in Christ.
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DAL said:
Have faith and whatever happens will happen no matter what.
I don't understand why 'what will happen' is not...
FOR SALE
One super duper function
Yours to keep forever for a single payment of $XXX
This function is guaranteed to work with Logos version Y running on Windows X and MacOSX in perpetuity.Regular upgrades and adaptions to the function to make it work with subsequent editions Logos and of the operating system
can be obtained by purchasing a service subscription for $X dollars each month.tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Here are my main issues with this move:
- One day, whether it's in 5 years or 10 years my current version will become unsupported and I'll have to consider a subscription. Logos has shown itself to be untrustworthy by trying to force a subscription model onto all their customers. There is no reason at all to not have both a subscription and purchase model right concurrently.
- Renting tools is not the same as owning them. Currently, some months I can afford a few hundred extra dollars to make a large purchase, other times $10 or whatever it is going to be is not going to be possible. I understand Logos is premium software and they're not really interested anymore in all their customers, just the ones that make them money. They're a business, I get that.
- I can't invest in digital resources if I don't trust the company. It frustrates me that I might eventually lose or not be able to pass on what I already have with the software. Neither can I afford to start over with Accordance or another company.
It reminds me a little of that meme that points out that my generation potentially has bought the same music on cassette, CD, MP3, and now Youtube and others want to rent it to us.
More and more I just want to go back to hardcopies of everything that I know I own.0 -
Martin Wickens said:
my generation potentially has bought the same music on cassette, CD, MP3, and now Youtube and others want to rent it to us.
So true.
Luckily, some of your other concerns are based on incorrect assumptions. Hopefully, in 5 to 10 years, when you realize your current version is still working just fine, you will consider the subscription not because you have to, but because of the added value you see in it.
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I was vehemently opposed to the subscription model at first because it removed the ability to purchase the full feature upgrade. Everything else remains the same. Whatever you buy, is yours. The Packages (standard, gold, diamond etc) are not going away. We will still be able to purchase those resources. The subscription gives low barrier of entry to full feature access. And if you are subscribed for two years consecutively, you will have rights to all the features except AI and Cloud, even if you cancel your subscription. That's good news because if you do not have the full feature set, they are giving you a payment plan set over two years.
The way Logos went about presenting all of this was horrible. I had to actually purchase the full feature set to know this information. But now that I have it, the pricing is discounted more than 60%. I think it worth it. I am on a payment plan now for the starter package which was how I was able to buy into Logos. without it id be using Olive Tree, paper books, and PDF's over multiple programs and drives. Logos allows me to keep it all in one place. If you can function without the subscription, you will still function without the subscription. The subscription is to get people in the door who don't have lump sum money.0 -
Robert Williams said:
And if you are subscribed for two years consecutively, you will have rights to all the features except AI and Cloud, even if you cancel your subscription. That's good news because if you do not have the full feature set, they are giving you a payment plan set over two years.
If Faithlife announced in advance what all of those features are (like they've done with the annual full feature upgrade in prior releases), that would have been nice. The problem is that under the new subscription model, you don't know upfront all you're paying for and getting that will be included in the Legacy Fallback License (the features you keep). That's one of a number of reasons why I'm so opposed to Faithlife's "get it all or get none of it" approach with the subscriptions.
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Robert, you mentioned that packages such as Bronze, Silver and Gold are not going away. This is one area that I think we need some more explanation. The new versions of these packages (the ones that are considered to be Logos 11 packages) will only be available to subscribers. So, if you see a new package of books that you'd like to purchase, you won't be able to do so without a subscription. I don't really understand why that's necessary other than to drive subscription revenue. I can understand making us subscribe for the additional features, but why lock non-subscribers away from new packages?
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Bob Price said:
The new versions of these packages (the ones that are considered to be Logos 11 packages) will only be available to subscribers. So, if you see a new package of books that you'd like to purchase, you won't be able to do so without a subscription.
Bob,
Speaking of Base Packages only, for the last several major releases, IF you had a subscription to Logos Now or later Faithlife Connect then you could buy just the books portion of the base package. However, IF you did not have that subscription, then yes you HAD to buy the combination of the library + Features base package.
So in short, you did have to have the features to buy the library. That was the only way they would sell it. (As best I remember it anyway.)
That is no different from what they did then to what they are doing now.
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Hi Martin
Welcome to the forums.
Martin Wickens said:- One day, whether it's in 5 years or 10 years my current version will become unsupported and I'll have to consider a subscription. Logos has shown itself to be untrustworthy by trying to force a subscription model onto all their customers. There is no reason at all to not have both a subscription and purchase model right concurrently.
I am not sure what has led you to this conclusion? As far as I am aware there has been no indication that the 'Free Engine' will cease to be maintained or available.
Indeed it would be counter productive for Logos to adopt that strategy. There will always be Logos users for whom a Bible, a Dictionary and a Commentary are all they need for daily devotions. Providing this facility essentially for free is marketing money well spent especially if the breadth of users enables a proportion to buy and odd book (resource) here and there.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Roy said:
So in short, you did have to have the features to buy the library. That was the only way they would sell it. (As best I remember it anyway.)
That is no different from what they did then to what they are doing now.
Hi Roy,
You're right, but I guess it felt to me like I would have to wait to gain access to libraries if I didn't want to subscribe. I'm one of those who usually bought up to the Gold level in increments over time, adding both features and books as I was able to do so. In my mind, I was locking in the features with each upgrade, but that concept will no longer hold if I only maintain a subscription long enough to purchase a new library. The only way to "lock in" feature sets now will be to take advantage of the Legacy Fallback program. The question we'll have to answer is whether two years' worth of features is worth two years' of subscription fees. If the AI features (which we don't get to keep) are good enough, that should be an easy "yes".
Thanks for your input!
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Tes said:
It's disappinting that Logos has decided to launch the next Version as a subscription.
When Logos first announced their switch to a subscription model, I jumped at the opportunity for these reasons:
- It costs less in the short run
I was paying $400 every couple of years to maintain my Platinum Logos. Subscribing for $99/year is cheaper. - God's servants are rarely wealthy.
At some point, Logos will run out of first-time buyers who will pay big bucks for a full-featured version. A subscription model will allow them to get started using Logos for a modest cost. - I want Logos to be financially healthy.
Like many others, I have invested many hours saving tens of thousands of Notes and Highlights. If Logos were to go out of business, it would all be lost.
May God continue to bless Logos for serving God's servants.
Jack
0 - It costs less in the short run
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Bob Price said:
I guess it felt to me like I would have to wait to gain access to libraries if I didn't want to subscribe.
More or less correct, however... someplace buried in amongst all of these threads it was stated (by Mark I believe) that even a "Free" trial subscription that was active at the time would suffice to allow you to buy one (or more?) of the new base libraries.
You could also subscribe for a month and during that time buy another library. Buying individual resources or collections (not base packages) of resources will always be possible regardless of subscription status.
Bob Price said:The only way to "lock in" feature sets now will be to take advantage of the Legacy Fallback program.
Yea, pretty much.
Bob Price said:The question we'll have to answer is whether two years' worth of features is worth two years' of subscription fees.
And at the current time it appears (to me at least) that a two year subscription would cost about what a new release full feature license has cost in the last couple of version releases. Depending of course on what features you had already owned.
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Very good points for some
Jack Hairston said:It costs less in the short run
I was paying $400 every couple of years to maintain my Platinum Logos. Subscribing for $99/year is cheaper.The question here is does the $198 for the two years equate to what you were obtaining with your purchases of Platinum each cycle? First, based on the little information we have to get Platinum Level comparison, you'd need Logos Max which is $129 per year IIRC - so $258.
Then with your Platinum purchase you owned all the Features - now you will own "To Be Determined" after two years - so there is a difference and while the cost may be cheaper - is the value comparable? is the value better? is the value less than what you are used to with the traditional option?
Jack Hairston said:God's servants are rarely wealthy.
At some point, Logos will run out of first-time buyers who will pay big bucks for a full-featured version. A subscription model will allow them to get started using Logos for a modest cost.The subscription can absolutely be a great entry into the Logos-verse, I think especially for seminary/Bible College students and some missionaries and ministers that are not hindered by the need for continual internet access.
Jack Hairston said:I want Logos to be financially healthy.
Like many others, I have invested many hours saving tens of thousands of Notes and Highlights. If Logos were to go out of business, it would all be lost.I believe all of us that have invested want to see Logos succeed - however we are also aware of Subscription fatigue, the fact that a subscription is a lot easier to walk away from and that turning away long time customers, rather than taking advantage of both subscribers and those who'd rather purchase is an insult to those long time customers that are not interested in subscribing and seems contrary to the goal of remaining financially healthy.... Disenfranchising faithful customers and/or leaving money on the table aren't arguments for financial health...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Its not as easy to walk away from a subscription as an early adopter at a cheaper rate though.
When ATT owned directv I got a directv stream package and free MAX at a much cheaper rate along with my unlimited phone plan. About half of what they charged new subscribers. That hook is set pretty deep because when the new subscriber goes up 20$ so does mine, but if I ever left for another plan I would lose that discount.
I view my early access Logos subscription similarly. The discount will make it hard to let it go. I felt that way when I had Logos Now but eventually I did stop it. I stopped it because I wanted to "own" everything. I don't think that philosophy ever saved me money.
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