LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic
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Hi Charles,
Thanks for noting your observations as nice as you can.
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:Quite frankly: you just don't know enough about the subject matter to be speaking to it.
(1) Most churches (denominations) that I have encountered that are protestant say that there is danger and often deviation from what the bible clearly teaches in any of Church (whether classed as Christian, or cult like JW ( watch-tower magazine) & Mormonism (book of Mormon), or Like Judaism with their oral law) when they use 'additional teachings' that are not apart of the Bible, but in addition to the bible and have equal authority to the Bible.
They teach that it is a sure sign that there is error in that 'church', and insist on educating people by comparing and weighing these additional works to the Bible.
(2) To say that I know very little of the subject, is misrepresenting one of us.
If we present the Bible as a set, and we have an Intersection of the knowledge that we both should know and base our faith on, then this better represents my area of expertise in comparison to yours. By this, I can easily make reference to what I know, when I hear something that might, or might not be in that set. You are saying in effect that I need a masters in Catholicism, or that If I don't know every minute definition or protocol of Catholicism then I cant make statements of what I have verified as true & learned of Catholicism, and experienced by talking to lay Catholics. Therefore, while you observations are noted, I believe your condescension is invalid.
In fact I would say that If one were to master the Bible set better than any other 'set' in the 'Universal Set' that you propose* then they will always be better off.
* (Universal Set: meaning that you believe the Christian faith has includes extra equally authoritative doctrines ( even if they are disjoint from the bible set, or in opposition to the bible set of authoritative doctrines)
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MJ. Smith said:
Luigi Sam,
I was raised in the Stone-Campbell tradition in a very rural community - our class of 10 was the largest ever for our 3 room 8 grade school. "Town" claimed a population of 125 which I always claimed included the dogs and Grandma's goats. The ignorance you attribute to non-Catholics does not match my experience - although when a Greek order of nuns set up in the Simcoe mountains, people had to ask and listen to fit them into the religious landscape. I have offered to provide a reading list on church history and liturgical theology. It's your decision as to what you wish to know and the accuracy you require of yourself.
Hi MJ,
I haven't made any statements that were not personal experiences with lay Catholics first hand, and I have not raised any Catholic concerns except those that I verified from Catholic documents*.
* as far as I can remember anyway, at the time of writing this.
Thanks for sharing your experience too. ( And if you would like to post a list of stuff you believe will also be useful, could you post it on a new thread, and link to it here? thanks MJ)
Regards
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Lest anyone wonders: in terms of doctrinal position I am most definitely mainline Protestant.
However, the series of threads started by L.S. beginning with "Warning labels", is so seriously jarring and obstinate that for a moment I even entertained the thought he could be a troll with pro-Catholic inclinations.
Please, could the moderators lock these threads before they slide even further? Or delete them? I think the extended campaign by one individual to flog one issue does no good on these forums.
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Luigi Sam said:
when they use 'additional teachings' that are not apart of the Bible,
Not, all are in agreement of what books make up the Bible nor what books are a part of the greater canon! Also, let's not forget that some think of the 27 books of the NT as 'additional teachings' that are not part of the canon. (This I think is one of the reasons for the Verbum package. The normal passage guide ignores books in the Catholic and Orthodox canons.)
- The Jewish Canon: Tanakh (Hebrew Bible 24books) also of great importance the Mishna, Talmuds, Mishneh Torah and Shulchan Aruch
- Catholic: OT (46 books) and NT (27 books)
- Orthodox: OT (51 books) and NT (27 books usually)
- Protestant Canon: OT (39 books) and NT (27 books)
Also, check out this cool and informative chart:
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Lee said:
Lest anyone wonders: in terms of doctrinal position I am most definitely mainline Protestant.
However, the series of threads started by L.S. beginning with "Warning labels", is so seriously jarring and obstinate that for a moment I even entertained the thought he could be a troll with pro-Catholic inclinations.
Please, could the moderators lock these threads before they slide even further? Or delete them? I think the extended campaign by one individual to flog one issue does no good on these forums.
To put this back on track, please lets only reply if it regards the Original Post of this thread.
It was not my intention to raise issues that were outside of being relevant to the Logos Bible Software.
(Some of the posts now are getting 'doctrinal'.
Some times making some statements are required in order to make a valid case that the Logos Bible Software should support being denomination-ally neutral ( and thus validate the concern as serious, however since we might disagree on them ( which is the point) then we should keep in mind that they were only to validate that Logos Bible Software should be doing something to correct it as a vendor to us all. ) so please remember that the point is not to continue discussing that particular doctrine - it only points out that there is a difference - there is no need to go on about it beyond this.
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No, straw man again.
It is not so much that posters are going off track in your threads, Luigi. (Besides, you meander off admirably enough when it suits your purpose.)
It is simply this: your threads are off track in this forum. Your campaign has been turned down by Logos, ignored, gently rebutted, yet you persist. And it is meandering dangerously close to another one of those Protestant-Catholic "discussions".
To the admin: Please LOCK or DELETE.
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Lee said:
No, straw man again.
It is not so much that posters are going off track in your threads, Luigi. (Besides, you meander off admirably when it suits your purpose too.)
It is simply this: your threads are off track in this forum.
I cant stop others going off topic, and if I reply on occasion to make sure that others don't presume to try to take authority* away from, or minimize my concerns.
If you don't like this thread, feel free not to read it.
if you aren't going to reply to the OP, then please don't compound the issue of off topic posts.
Edit *[authority as in: try to undermine me, or my post as being a valid concern, or my reasons that add validity to my concern]
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additionally, I am battling to keep my posts on topic for the most part.
I wouldn't be surprised if others are posting on purpose about off topic issue's just so that my valid concerns are ["DELETED"].
and just so that if or when I reply, they might say 'look LS is just posting 'straw' and then ask Logos to delete my OP, which is valid.
( Im not accusing anyone by name tho )
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Luigi Sam said:
I cant stop others going off topic, and if I reply on occasion to make sure that others don't presume to try to take authority away from, or minimize my concerns.
Authority? Minimize your concern? [8-)]
Luigi Sam said:If you don't like this thread, feel free not to read it.
Obviously, that would be to "minimize your concern". But that is avoided by spewing threads all over, no?
Luigi Sam said:if you aren't going to reply to the OP, then please don't compound the issue of off topic posts.
Again: your threads are themselves off-topic. Your "concern" has been addressed by other users and even Bob Pritchett. Move on. In one of your posts you raise the spectre of Logos potentially being "hijacked" by one particular denomination. I only see one Forum hijacked by a poster with an insatiable desire to redress a particular grievance.
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BKMitchell said:
Hi BKMichell,
thanks heaps!
I hope that we can all now move on, and just try to keep this thread on what the OP says.
Thanks again.
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Lee said:
Again: your threads are themselves off-topic. Your "concern" has been addressed by other users and even Bob Pritchett. Move on.
well, Bradley from Logos is the man in regards to who will update Bob Pritchett on this concern, and this is pending reply atm.
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:That is, you believe it should
not be the case that one denomination is treated specially in the Logos
product lineup, especially with a custom-branded product. If that is
indeed the case, I can make sure Bob is aware of this the next time I
see him.
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Bob has already replied in categorical terms.
I think all users see that Logos will not grant your reprieve.
Move on.
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You opinion does not change the fact that a Logos Rep said he will update Bob on this.
Your posts do not invalidate this.
Please don't post anymore on this thread, unless you want to address the OP.
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Please be reminded that your space and "authority" on these threads is subject to the space and authority of Logos and the community of users on this Forum.
Please be reminded that by posting on this Forum you agree to general etiquette and specific Forum guidelines.
Please be reminded that correctness of one opinion or position is neither validated/invalidated by observers, nor validated/invalidated by one's obstinacy.
You have tenaciously pushed your opinion on this Forum. Be prepared to accept criticism.
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Lee said:
To the admin: Please LOCK or DELETE.
One way to send a message to the Logos Forum administrators is click More, then Report Abuse, which opens an email form so can fill in subject and message.
Thankful for Logos forum administrators response to Abuse Reports, which can include leaving thread unlocked for a forum reputation, which is publicly searchable. Thankful for a number of threads outside Logos forum guidelines being deleted. Seem to remember some forum users being Thankful for Logos administrators respecting original poster request for thread deletion.
Thankful for Logos 5 and Verbum introductory discounts with dynamic upgrade pricing plus payment plan. Thankful for Logos expanding digital library business.
Thankful for Bob Pritchett, CEO, participating in many forum discussions and posting => Answer the Logos User Survey!
Thankful for many friendly forum discussions about using Logos Bibles Software: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Just half an hour ago, I already did that Report Abuse thingy. Thanks for the reminder though!
I am also thankful for the usefulness of this Forum. Amazed that customer service reps, even the Prez himself, can make occasional appearances and clarifications!
I am also thankful that any valid grievance can always be privately and directly communicated to Logos staffers, and even the Prez himself, by email. Such a wonderful channel of communication is open to us, that was not available in the pre-internet age.
So, we should all help maintain the original reference and spirit of the Forum.
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Luigi Sam,
Logos5 re-branded and modified is being sold as a non-denominational Catholic product just as the standard Logos5 base products are being sold as nondenominational Protestant product. In Protestant world there are many denominations, and in the Catholic world there are many rites, orders, and sects. There was a demand for a Catholic product or at least to make Logos more catholic friendly.
The standard Logos base packages were/are highly biased in favor of the protestant canon, meaning that Catholic/Orthodox Christians running normal searches, PG, EG, TG, and BWS might not be able to get information relevant to all of their canon. The normal base products are also weak in catholic resources. Sure, Logos could could have radically changed their normal basepackage offerings and GUI to make it more Catholic/Orthodox friendly but this too may have angered or confused some of their users. So, they created the Verbum line, Verbum website, and Verbum blog for Catholics.
I am sure other groups, denominations, and so on could have their own line, too if: there was enough demand and if Logos deemed it a profitable venture.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Hi BKMitchell,
BKMitchell said:Logos5 re-branded and modified is being sold as a non-denominational Catholic product just as the standard Logos5 base products are being sold as nondenominational Protestant product. In Protestant world there are many denominations, and in the Catholic world there are many rites, orders, and sects. There was a demand for a Catholic product or at least to make Logos more catholic friendly.
I've replied many times that Verbum is sold as Catholic (that is One Denomination by name).
As I understand your post, you are saying that Verbum is being sold as 'Catholic' in terms of a non-denominational Catholic product.
Whereas, the fact is that in the Catholic denomination whose head is the Pope, there are many rites (I mean Catholic Chruches who are not Roman Catholic Churches). But the fact is that all of these rites of Catholicism are still subject to the Universal mandatory decrees of the Pope and relevant Councils. Thus to a protestant, they are all apart of the Catholic denomination. That defines what is a catholic church and what isn't.
To further clarify please read this post of mine: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/65685/461582.aspx#461582
The Verbum product might cater for other denominations (that is Orthodox etc not directly named as catholic churches), but this is irrelevant, and an unintended way to explain the advertising as "Verbum for Catholics". Meaning that the intended audience of Verbum is primarily intended for the catholic denomination as I have explained above, and in that link, and expressly advertised by them that this is intention.
Therefore, my concern is still very valid, and Verbum still is labelled and expressly advertised for the Catholic denomination as defined above.
[ addition:
also aside from the above, even if I entertained your explanation as true, it still doesn't change the fact that Verbum expressly says
"Catholic" and Logos does not expressly say "Protestant".]
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To admin again: Please LOCK or DELETE
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Eastern catholic churches may be full communion with the church of Rome, but are still autonomous. There are 23 different eastern rites or different catholic(universals) churches. They are not subject to any mandatory degrees; they can and do differ with the church of Rome. For example: Priest can have a wife in the other rites where in the Roman Catholic church they usually can not.
Here are a few excerpts from the Logos edition of the Code of Canons:
TITLE II. CHURCHES SUI IURIS AND RITES
CAN. 27† A community of the Christian faithful, which is joined together by a hierarchy according to the norm of law and which is expressly or tacitly recognized as sui iuris by the supreme authority of the Church, is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.
CAN. 28 §1.† A rite is a liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary heritage, differentiated by the culture and the circumstances of the history of peoples, which is expressed by each Church sui iuris in its own manner of living the faith.
john paul, "Apostolic Constitution Sacri Canones", Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches: New English Translation (Washington, DC: Canon Law Society of America, 2001). 10.
"This is also evident in the various forms of the hierarchical constitution of the Eastern Churches: the patriarchal Churches are preeminent among these, in which the patriarchs and synods are sharers in the supreme authority of the Church by canon law. With these forms, delineated in their own title at the opening of the Code, there is immediately evident both the appearance of each and every Eastern Church as it has been sanctioned by canon law and their autonomous status, as well as their full communion with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Saint Peter, who, presiding over the whole assembly of charity, safeguards legitimate diversity and, at the same time, keeps watch that individuality serves unity rather than harming it (cf. const. Lumen gentium, n. 13)."
john paul, "Apostolic Constitution Sacri Canones", Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches: New English Translation (Washington, DC: Canon Law Society of America, 2001). xxiv.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Luigi: You asked, you were given an answer. Verbum stays, as is. It's done.
We have all tried our best to help you understand.
I was the one who suggested we just ignore the threads so they would cease, then felt bad about that as I felt ( at least for myself ) you needed a better explanation of the intricacies of "why" Logos might be doing this and what it means for us who study a great deal and, how these things might affect you positively .
You have proven I was wrong.
My Apology's to everyone, Please forgive.
You are just being obstinate Luigi.
How about this: Why not be glad for all of us that have had to go through so many years of not being able to get the resources and tools we needed, but are now getting.
Rejoice with those that rejoice!
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Fr Charles ... in your quest to silence Luigi (does that ring a bell maybe?), your discussion has been very educational (both you and MJ). I've learned more in this thread, than I've learned in my whole lifetime (very short, really .... hush, hush). The practicalities and subtlties from a real person (vs a book) often provide greater clarity.
Maybe Luigi was doing you a favor? You were wrong about your ability to join the 'we'. But you need not be forgiven. Just the opposite. My complements!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Aww, shucks DMB, Your very Kind. MJ better deserves any credit. ( Quite the intellect there).
I just like to see growth. I garden quite a lot too, so watching and helping growth is something I have always enjoyed. People, plants, building things.
I learn a great deal in my garden, good place to contemplate, see how things relate to one another. There are a lot of things interrelating for a plant to grow, many things going on in the soils, many things going on in the plants, many factors in weather, rain etc. etc.
Life is like that, the Gospel is like that, learning is like that.
I love looking at/for all the things/ideas/events etc. that are part of the Activity of God with His creation and, the highest part of that, His activity with Human Beings. I learn something new each and every day. Each day has some "wow" moment where I see something and how it relates to other things, that I had not seen connected before.
Learning is just so very, very cool to me, exciting actually- I just love it.
Guess I have a bit of the adventurer in me. Each time I learn something new, I just can't wait to see where that too leads, what is to be seen and experienced next, what great vistas God is awaiting me to be ready to see. So glad The Lord is patient with me and always has something to show me. Sometimes I wonder if the Holy Trinity gets a bit of a giggle out of my excitement at learning, sort of like parents do watching children open presents at Christmas.
Guess thats really it, When it comes to study and learning more of what God has for us, I am that excited Kid at Christmas with the big eyes and excited squeals of Joy. I just can't believe I get such cool stuff! Smile.
We have a wonderful Father, an Incredible Lord and Savior and, He has a very nice Mother.
Grace and Peace,
May God Himself bless you with Vision after Vision of His incredible Mercy, Peace and Grace.
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Luigi Sam said:
And relating it back to Charles post, my point was that the word catholic is often mixed up with the denomination catholic
Hear, hear. Will this multi-page thread matter when Christ calls his bride, the Church, out of this world for the marriage supper of the Lamb? Is the Bible not clear there is One body? One Communion? One Book of Life? It matters not what sign adorns my house of worship so long as my name is written in that Book. He knows His sheep and they hear His voice. They make up the true "catholic" ("universal" unseen) Church.
None of us can say everyone who worships at our own church is truly saved. None of us can know if everyone in another church is lost. Church signs and verbal labels only serve to divide us. I don't like them in my community and I don't want them in my Logos.
If one is diligently seeking the Truth they can trust God not to mislead them.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
If one is diligently seeking the Truth they can trust God not to mislead them.
God might not mislead them, but people mislead themselves all the time. I know of a Buddhist who is honestly seeking the truth - and she feels that she has found it in the teachings of Buddha. God is the one that draws sinners to Himself, not the other way around. I'm not convinced that a sinner must be diligently searching to qualify for this divine mercy (or vice versa). Qualification comes from God alone.
I know that I wasn't seeking God when He sucker punched me with the gospel and had me believe. [;)]
Either way, this thread needs to be locked. All that can be said has been said. At the end of the day Logos can do whatever they want.
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Word from the BBC is that Pope Benedict felt that the only way he could escape the utter monotony of this thread was to resign and live in a monastery.
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Count me as one of the Protestants that doesn't care if Logos chooses to re-brand their platform and includes specific resources to market their software to Roman Catholics or anybody else for that matter. Nor do I think they should add Protestant to the packages just to please a portion of their client base.
Says far more about the OP and others that they have a problem with current Logos marketing practices than it does about Logos.
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Josh said:
this thread needs to be locked
Let this thread die so we can all join the refrain of Basil Fawlty ...
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Locking. There was hope that this thread was going to die of natural causes, but that is not going to happen.
Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics in these forums.
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