LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic
Comments
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Luigi Sam said:
Could you post a screen shot of this 'switch'?
[ both set as on & off]
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Snippets of text on catholic meaning universal
[to back up Fr. Charles R. Matheny [not that he needs my help]]
Apostles’ Creed, “I believe in the holy catholic Church,” uses the word catholic as meaning Universal
- [[ Little ‘c’ not Capital ‘C’ ]]
‘Holy Church’ primitive.—‘Catholic’ not in the Old-Roman Creed, though early applied to the Church in East and West.—The ‘Catholic Church’ not an abstraction, or a symbol of subjection to Rome.—Why the name was limited to orthodox Churches and Christians.—‘Catholic’ at once comprehensive and exclusive.—Its retention in the English Creed from The Apostles’ Creed: Its Relation to Primitive Christianity
edit Thanks to Keep Smiling 4 Jesus
for always coming to the rescue 0 -
Luigi Sam said:
Surely the word 'Verbum' is not meant to reflect this meaning?
Logos has chosen to use "Logos" to refer to the shorter canon / non-liturgical base and "Verbum" to refer to the longer canon / liturgical base. Many of us hope to see "Devar" to refer to a Jewish oriented version. Brand names have meaning only in the sense that marketing creates a meaning - Exxon or Chevrolet didn't reflect petrol products and autos initially.
The question that is relevant is does the advertizing for Verbum succeed in attracting the users (old and new) for whom it is the better choice? Given the diversity of Verbum users, I suspect that it has. And a strong Logos benefits us all.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
1. The Divine Liturgy, is "how we worship and live".
Hi Charles,
Liturgy in terms of its functionality in Logos is: commentary, bible notes or a way to 'study the faith with reduced bible study'.
(while the functionality might be slightly more or less, and the term Liturgy elsewhere is not what I seek to make a definition of)
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:2. Catholic is the Faith that has been given. Short ( very short ) definition of the word is: that which is universal. In other words, the faith given us by God, through Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit in the Holy Apostles and handed down to this day.
when talking about denominations the word 'catholic' should not be used as a term to say 'the universal faith' or 'the church of all denominations' anymore.
Additionally you fail to mention: there is Roman Catholicism, and Catholic churches which say they are not Roman Catholics. They define themselves as separate, but in actual fact they are still apart of the Roman Catholic Church ( That is they are: in full harmonious communion with it, and accept the pope and the teaching thereof).
If I am wrong tell me this in a brief summary:
1. when did the 'catholic churches' ( that entitle themselves 'catholic' and whose priests wear the catholic white collar etc) define themselves as not RC?
2. what RC catechisms and decrees remain as adopted by the catholic ("but not RC") church (and what year did they stop being accepted )?
3. Do they both have any councils and catechisms in common today?
4. what decrees does the 'catholic but not RC' differ in each council & catechism?
Additionally: your play on the word catholic has nothing to do with verbum and it being advertised as catholic software.
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MJ. Smith said:
Logos has chosen to use "Logos" to refer to the shorter canon / non-liturgical base and "Verbum" to refer to the longer canon / liturgical base. Many of us hope to see "Devar" to refer to a Jewish oriented version.
Hi MJ,I respectfully think you are trying to minimize the issue.
Point 1: Regarding Davar
Also my Original Post was meant to point out that if logos made a version called "Davar", and on purposely advertised it as "Jewish software" ( as in non-Christian, a.k.a Software for Judaism).
Then We All would understand why they would need to do this - because they dont want anything to do with 'Christian Denominations' or a Christian Software Platform.
Point 2:
And that IF Catholics get a rebrand of Logos, when they want to be called a 'Christian denomination' then this doesn't make any sense. They should just set the Logos platform to catholic mode via the catholic mod) NOT re-brand the Logos Platform.
Otherwise this makes the title of "Logos a denomination-ally neutral platform" suited for, and customizable for all 'Christian denominations' as wrong.
Put simply Verbum = "the word" just like Logos does, and Catholics are aiming to separate itself from the other 'Christian denominations' and use "Verbum' as their software platform instead of integrating as ' one Christian denomination' using the Logos platform Label.
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Luigi Sam said:
Liturgy in terms of its functionality in Logos is: commentary, bible notes or a way to 'study the faith with reduced bible study'.
Where on earth did this come from? There is nothing in this definition that is remotely related to "liturgy". BTW - Jewish worship is liturgical. Liturgical Bible study tends to be more oriented towards the interrelationships between pericopes - but Standard Publishing annual lessons also have this feature. It tends towards interest in the history of interpretation - knowing whose shoulders we stand on, especially Early Church Fathers. It tends towards a more contemplative bent - as do all the Pietist movements. But most of all, it is oriented towards liturgical time in which God gives his living Word to us ... the Word is not the printed page, it is God's speech in kairos time not kronos time. Liturgy is our worship, which is heavily scriptural in the sense of praying to God in the words God has given us - especially psalms and Gospels.
Luigi Sam said:1. when did the 'catholic churches' ( that entitle themselves 'catholic' and whose priests wear the catholic white collar etc) define themselves as not RC?
No one is Roman Catholic except in the sense that the liturgy they use for worship derives from the Western tradition. There are a number (27 or so) churches that place themselves under the Pontiff that are not Roman (Latin rite). Eastern and Byzantine churches never considered themselves as Roman Catholic - even when they were united with Rome. During the Reformation in the West, Anglicans and Lutherans retained the sense of being catholic even though they broke with Rome. I cannot speak for other groups.
As for "catholic white collar", how do I tell a catholic clerical collar from a Methodist clerical collar? And not all RC priest wear clerical collars ... so [8-)]
Luigi Sam said:2. what RC catechisms and decrees remain as adopted by the catholic ("but not RC") church (and what year did they stop being accepted )?
The creeds and early ecumenical councils have been retained continuously. My interest is not in church history so beyond that I cannot speak.
Luigi Sam said:3. Do they both have any councils and catechisms in common today?
I know of a joint orthodox/catholic catechism and I know of joint Lutheran-Catholic statements. Ecumenical in the sense of the entire church? Respect for Orthodoxy makes me say probably none since 1054 when two idiots ... okay, my opinion doesn't exactly toe the party line on either side of the schism. My Calcedonian friends would like me to place the human misunderstanding closer to 450.
Luigi Sam said:4. what decrees does the 'catholic but not RC' differ in each council & catechism?
No universal (ecumenical) council was strictly RC. Catechisms are available in Lutheran, Baptist, Unitarian .... flavors. I also have Catholic catechisms that are not Roman - Byzantine and Ruthenian to be precise.
Luigi Sam said:Additionally: your play on the word catholic has nothing to do with verbum and it being advertised as catholic software.
This was not a play on the word catholic. It is the basic meaning of the word for Anglicans, Lutherans, Church of the East, Byzantine Orthodox, and Catholic - as well as a number of mainline protestants i.e. 80+% of the Christian world.
If you would like, I could provide you with a list of "non-papal" Logos resources on church history and liturgy to help fill in the gaps.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Luigi Sam said:
Then We All would understand why they would need to do this
I believe that most Logos users understand why the difference in canon made this a desirable move for Logos. Perhaps, I would not have thought so if I hadn't read the forums when the Book of Enoch came out under the resource type of Bible (think Church of the East). Note that L4 & L5 made the difference in canon more noticeable in terms of functionality.
Luigi Sam said:they want to be called a 'Christian denomination' then this doesn't make any sense.
Actually, Catholics don't even really understand the concept of denomination - they simply think of themselves as members of the universal church (add the typical Jesus, Holy Spirit, apostolic faith bit). The same is true of the Orthodox and the Church of the East ... and for many Anglo-Catholics ... and for a whole bunch of other people.
Luigi Sam said:Catholics are aiming to separate itself from the other 'Christian denominations' and use "Verbum' as their software platform instead of integrating as ' one Christian denomination' using the Logos platform Label.
Logos chose the separation. Catholics simply want the broader canon - the one supported by Logos is not the Catholic Canon but is further expanded to include Byzantine and Slavic traditions. And Catholics are not interested in filling their library with evangelical pastoral books. The same may be said for many Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox (Byzantine & Oriental) ... but I repeat myself.
Luigi Sam said:Otherwise this makes the title of "Logos a denomination-ally neutral platform" suited for, and customizable for all 'Christian denominations' as wrong.
As long as the Logos datasets support only the shorter canon Logos is not denominationally neutral or customizable for all Christians. Even with the Verbum expansion, I suspect the Church of the East will still not be supported. Warning - Pacific Northwest joke ahead (unless Microsoft programmers are heavily from the Mar Thoma church - market counts).
At this point, I will excuse myself from further engagement with you
unless you are interested in Logos resources to fill the education gaps.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Educational addendum:
LITURGICAL ELEMENTS
Liturgical elements refers to the corporate expressions of praise to God or Christ that were developed into fixed forms through constant and repeated usage in the public worship of the early churches. In the Pauline corpus, the most common liturgical elements mentioned are: creedal confessions, hymns, doxologies, benedictions and prayer acclamations such as “Amen,” “Abba, Father” and “Maranatha.”
1. Creedal Confessions
2. Hymns
3. Doxologies
4. Benedictions
5. Prayer Acclamations
6. Conclusion
1. Creedal Confessions.
Creeds, in the modern sense, may not have been fully evident in the early church as in later centuries. Fragments of confessional statements (or creedal confessions), however, are present throughout the NT. In the Pauline corpus creedal confessions can be recognized by the presence of an introductory formula such as “so it says” (dio legei, Eph 5:14; cf. Eph 4:8) or an expression such as “I receive” (paralambanō, 1 Cor 15:3; Col 2:6). The central messages of creedal confessions are usually related to the saving work of Christ (e.g., 1 Cor 15:3–5) and his lordship (e.g., Rom 10:9–10; 1 Cor 12:3). The rise of these confessions is most likely due to evangelistic intention (the proclamation of the gospel); cultic practice (the expression of corporate praises to the triune God); or apologetic assertion (the defense of the gospel under attack). Creedal confessions were usually uttered at public worship or a baptismal ceremony (see Baptism). As used in Paul, creedal confessions are often found in contexts where he is defending the gospel message or proclaiming the person (see Christology) and work of Christ (1 Cor 15:3–5; cf. 1 Tim 3:16) or where he is exhorting believers to practice proper Christian conduct (1 Cor 11:26; 16:22; see Creed).
2. Hymns.
Singing was a common practice in the corporate worship of the Pauline communities (cf. 1 Cor 14:26; Eph 5:19–20; Col 3:16). While most of the songs were spontaneous expressions of praise to God by different individuals during public worship, some of them were more structured, containing various confessional elements relating Christ’s saving work and his lordship, and were recited unitedly. In the Pauline corpus, passages such as Philippians 2:6–11, Colossians 1:15–20, Ephesians 2:14–16, 5:14 and 1 Timothy 3:16 are generally acknowledged as hymnic materials. In origin and usage, hymnic materials and creedal confessions are essentially the same, that is, they were originally devised for evangelistic, cultic, apologetic purposes and carried didactic and hortative functions in their contexts. In style, however, hymnic materials are recognizable by the introductory relative pronoun “who” (hos) being followed by a participle prior to the main verb. They are written in poetic or metrical style (see Hymns).
3. Doxologies.
Doxology is a form of exalted prayer speech directed to the praise of God. It was an essential element in Jewish worship and was adopted by the early churches in their public worship. In the Pauline letters there are two major types of doxologies. One is expressed by the formula “Blessed (be) God” (Rom 1:25; 9:5; 2 Cor 1:3–11; 11:31; Eph 1:3–14), resembling the form of the šemōneh ˓eśrēh (the Eighteen Benedictions). The other is expressed by the phrase “to him be glory for ever” (Rom 11:33–36; 16:25–27; Gal 1:5; Phil 4:20; cf. Eph 3:21; 1 Tim 1:17; 6:16; 2 Tim 4:18), which is less formal in structure but more commonly used. There is no particular or fixed location for the insertion of these doxologies except to note that they are not usually tacked-on elements, but are connected with the context, arising out of the preceding words. And their contents, while following a basic formula, are often expressed differently by the addition of new phrases that help to convey didactic messages directly related to the situation of the readers (2 Cor 1:3–11; cf. Eph 1:3–14; Rom 11:33–36; Gal 1:5; (see Benediction, Blessing, Doxology).
4. Benedictions.
Benediction is a form of wish-prayer expressed for the well being of the people for whom the prayer is offered. In the Pauline corpus each letter is commenced with an introductory benediction, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ” (see Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; Gal 1:3; Phil 1:2; Philem 3; Eph 1:2), and concludes with a benediction, “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you” (see 1 Cor 16:23; Gal 6:18; Phil 4:23; Philem 25; 2 Thess 3:18). The form and location of these benedictions are similar to those used in Jewish worship, but in content Pauline benedictions are distinctly Christian in that additional features such as “grace” and “from our Lord Jesus Christ” are added to the Jewish formula. The content of these benedictions (both the introductory and the concluding) are essentially the same in that they include three basic elements: the wish for blessing, the source of the benefaction and the recipients. But they are not expressed identically in every case. Paul does not simply borrow and insert a stereotyped benediction into each letter; nor does he include benedictions in his letters for the sake of formality. In each letter the introductory or concluding benediction may be written somewhat differently (see 2 Cor 13:13; Gal 6:18; 1 Thess 1:1; Col 1:2).
Besides the introductory and concluding benedictions, Paul at times inserts “wish-prayers” for his readers. These are placed within the content of the letter at places where he wants to express his sincere concern for his readers in relation to problems being addressed. In such cases the “wish-prayers” are always tailored to address the specific needs of his readers (Rom 15:5, 13, 33; 1 Thess 3:11–13; 2 Thes 1:11–12; 2:16–17; 3:5). Thus Paul’s use of liturgical benedictions is not perfunctory (see Benediction).
5. Prayer Acclamations.
In the Pauline corpus there are three non-Greek liturgical acclamations which are usually connected with prayers that are used by Paul for other purposes. These acclamations are “Amen,” “Abba, Father” and “Maranatha.”
5.1. “Amen.” “Amen” (Gk amēn) is a transliteration of the Hebrew word ˒āmēn, which is derived from the root ˒mn, meaning “firmness, certainty.” In the OT amen is an expression of affirmation of what has been said, whether in a solemn curse (Num 5:22; Jer 11:5) or in prayer and praise (1 Chron 16:36; Neh 8:6; Ps 41:13; 106:48). In early Judaism this usage of amen continued (Tob 3:3) and was so firmly established that in time it became a liturgical element in Jewish worship: the congregation responded with an “Amen” at the end of each prayer recited by the leader.
In Paul’s letters amen is used in two different ways. The first one is the common usage where it is placed at the end of benedictions (Rom 15:33; 1 Cor 16:24; Gal 6:18; Philem 25), doxologies (Rom 1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 16:27; Gal 1:5; Eph 3:21; Phil 4:20; 1 Tim 1:17; 6:16; 2 Tim 4:18) and prayers of thanksgiving (cf. 1 Cor 14:16) as an affirmation of the prayer or thanksgiving of another person. But Paul does not use amen merely for liturgical purposes. In some instances it is intentionally mentioned to promote the unity of the congregation through their corporate utterance of “Amen” together (cf. Rom 15:33) or to lead the readers into a verbal affirmation of the doctrinal beliefs which they are in danger of abandoning (see Gal 1:3–5). This is indicted by the frequency of references to and the locations of amen in Paul’s letters.
The second way of using amen by Paul is found in 2 Corinthians 1:20. In this context (2 Cor 1:15–22) there is no doxology or benediction. Instead, Paul is explaining to the Corinthians his change of traveling plans. In defending his personal integrity in the ministry of the gospel, Paul refers to God’s faithfulness (2 Cor 1:18), which is supported by Christ’s faithfulness in fulfilling God’s promises (1 Cor 1:19–20). Because Christ is faithful (not “yes” and “no”), God’s faithfulness in promising salvation to humanity is fulfilled. The amen in this context is not likely a substitution of “yes” (as Hahn proposes), nor a reference to its semitic meaning “firmness, certainty” (as van Unnik argues). Rather, it is invoked in its liturgical usage (i.e., expressed at the end of prayers) to underscore the faithfulness of Christ in fulfilling God’s promise of salvation which in turn creates the possibility for believers to utter together “Amen” in their corporate worship to the glory of God. Accordingly, Paul’s argument is: He (Paul) is faithful (or trustworthy) just as God is faithful. God is faithful because his son Jesus Christ is faithful in fulfilling his promises. In this light amen is used in 2 Corinthians 1:20 not only directly to affirm Christ’s faithfulness, but also indirectly to support Paul’s argument for his own trustworthiness. Here we see an example of Paul’s creative use of a liturgical acclamation with its familiar meaning for the strengthening of his argument.
5.2. “Abba, Father.” The original meaning of Abba and the original usage of the phrase “Abba, Father” in addressing God have long been discussed among NT scholars. The majority view (following J. Jeremias) considers Abba an Aramaic word (˒abbā˒) used by small children in addressing their fathers. It was adopted by Jesus in all his prayers to God and later on introduced by him to his disciples to indicate an intimate relationship between God and the believers. Although this popular view has been challenged by J. Barr, who argues that Abba is actually an adult’s word and was used to address God prior to Jesus’ use of the term, its unique usage by Jesus to emphasize a relationship of endearment between God and the believers must not be denied (cf. Jn 5:17–18). In Jesus’ usage of Abba there is portrayed a direct, individual, filial relationship with God. The double address formula “Abba, Father” appears three times in the NT (Mk 14:36; Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). This formula most likely originated in the garden of Gethsemane when Jesus, under intense emotional stress, added “Father” to Abba. Evidently, this double address was known among the Palestinian churches and was transmitted to the Gentile churches both in Asia (cf. Gal 4:6) and Italy (cf. Rom 8:15) as a reminiscence of the ipsissima vox Jesu (see Jesus, Sayings of). It was later used as a liturgical acclamation (perhaps the communal recitation of the Lord’s Prayer) during public worship and was also applied by individuals in their private prayers.
In Paul’s letters the two occurrences of “Abba, Father” are found in contexts where Paul is presenting theological arguments for Christian conduct (Rom 8:1–17) and the gospel (Gal 3:1–4:31). In Romans 8 “Abba, Father” is mentioned as a proof of the Romans’ filial relationship with God (see Adoption, Sonship), and on such basis the Romans are obligated to live according to the Spirit (see Holy Spirit). In Galatians 4:6 “Abba, Father” is used to reassure the Galatians of their filial relationship with God even without the observance of the Law (cf. Gal 3:26; 4:5, 7) which the “troublemakers” among them tried to impose. So in both cases this liturgical address, “Abba, Father,” with its popular meaning, is used by Paul to convey the theme of his argument.
5.3. “Maranatha.” One of the unique features in Paul’s letters is his inclusion of the Aramaic word maranatha at the end of his letter to the Corinthians, immediately before he expresses his customary concluding benediction (1 Cor 16:22). This is the only occurrence of the word in the entire NT, and for this reason there has been much discussion concerning its meaning, origin and function. Linguistically, the Greek maranatha can be read as a transliteration of the Aramaic marana˒ ta˒ (i.e., the first person plural with the pronominal suffix), denoting an imperative cry “Our Lord, come!,” or maran ˒eta˒ (i.e., the shorter form), denoting an indicative statement “Our Lord has come” or “The Lord will come.” Of these three meanings, the first has been understood by most NT interpreters to be the original meaning of the term, based on the fact that two similar prayers for the Lord’s future coming are found in Revelation 22:20 (erchou Kyrie Iēsou, “Come! Lord Jesus”) and in Didache 10:6 (maran atha, “Maranatha”). Many interpreters have argued that the Sitz im Leben of this invocation was the Eucharist (see Lord’s Supper), where it served as a prayer for the Lord’s immediate presence as well as for his eschatological return (see Eschatology). This view draws its support from Didache 10:6 where “Maranatha” occurs at the end of the meal in connection with the eucharistic liturgy.
In 1 Corinthians the mention of maranatha in its context is directly related to the particular occasion and purpose of this letter. Being misled by the intruding errorists (see Opponents) into believing a realized eschatology, some of the Corinthians thought that they were already in the new age and that there was no need for a future bodily resurrection. This belief led them to many unacceptable styles of behavior, and Paul is seen making continual emphasis on a futuristic eschatology throughout the letter (e.g., 1 Cor 1:7–8; 3:13; 4:5; 5:5; 6:14; 11:26; 13:12; 15:50–54). Then when he comes to the end of the letter, the pronouncement of a curse, “anathema” (see Curse) on those who do not love the Lord (possibly Paul’s opponents) and the exclamation “maranatha!” a prayer for Christ’s coming, together serve to reinforce the key messages of the letter.
In brief, Paul’s use of this liturgical acclamation at the end of his letter accomplishes three possible functions. First, it may express his sincere wish-prayer that the Lord may soon come. After writing a lengthy letter filled with confrontation, correction and instruction, Paul certainly wishes that the Lord will soon come to vindicate what he had said and done as an apostle (cf. 1 Cor 4:3–5). Secondly, it may be used to correct the Corinthians’ misconception concerning their status in Christ. The Lord will come again to usher them into the new kingdom with their resurrected or transformed bodies. They are not yet in the new age here and now (1 Cor 15:50–53; 6:14; cf. 4:8). And finally, it may function to exhort them to live worthily before the Lord. Since they will face his judgment at his coming (1 Cor 3:11–15), a petition for the Lord’s coming reminds them to behave constantly in a proper manner, notably in their personal lives but also in their corporate worship. Thus in 1 Corinthians, maranatha is placed in its context for specific purposes and to suit the particular needs of the Corinthian congregation.
6. Conclusion.
The above discussion indicates that Paul’s letters are richly endowed with liturgical elements. Since these letters were read in public worship, the frequent inclusion of liturgical elements is to be expected. Yet it is remarkable to find that Paul’s use of liturgical elements is never confined to stereotyped usage or content. This is seen in his careful selection of a particular form of liturgical element and his placement of it in a strategic location. In many cases the content of these liturgical elements (e.g., doxologies and benedictions) are tailored to clarify or underline the crucial messages he wants to convey to his readers, either for didactic, hortative or apologetic functions. In similar fashion, the liturgical acclamations “amen,” “Abba, Father” and “maranatha,” with their popular meanings, are cited in contexts to strengthen his arguments. In sum, liturgical elements are used by Paul in a lively and creative manner. Their presence in public worship becomes meaningful only when they include relevant messages directed to the needs of the worshipers.
See also BENEDICTION, BLESSING, DOXOLOGY, THANKSGIVING; CREED; HYMNS, HYMN FRAGMENTS, SONGS, SPIRITUAL SONGS; PRAYER; WORSHIP.
BIBLIOGRAPHY. J. Barr, “ ‘Abba Isn’t ‘Daddy,’ ” JTS 39 (1988) 28–47; L. G. Champion, Benedictions and Doxologies in the Letters of Paul (Oxford: publ. privately, 1934); W. Dunphy, “Maranatha: Development in Early Christology,” ITQ 37 (1970) 294–308; J. A. Fitzmyer, “The New Testament Kyrios and Maranatha and their Aramaic Background,” in To Advance the Gospel (New York: Crossroad, 1981) 218–35; W. H. Gloer, “Homologies and Hymns in the New Testament: Form, Content and Criteria for Identification,” PRS 11 (1984) 115–32; F. Hahn, “Das Ja des Paulus und das Ja Gottes,” in Neues Testament und christliche Existenz: Festschrift für Herbert Braun, ed. H. D. Betz & L. Schottroff (Tübingen: J. C. B. Mohr, 1973) 229–39; J. Jeremias, The Prayers of Jesus (SBT 2/6; London: SCM, 1967) 11–65; idem, New Testament Theology: The Proclamation of Jesus (New York: Scribners, 1971) 61–68; H.-W. Kuhn, “ἀββά,” EDNT 1.1–2; A. MacDonald, Christian Worship in the Primitive Church (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1934); R. P. Martin, “Paul and His Predecessors,” in New Testament Foundations (2 vols.; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1978) 2.248–75; A. Mawhinney, “God as Father: Two Popular Theories Reconsidered,” JETS 31 (1988) 181–90; J. T. Sanders, The New Testament Christological Hymns (Cambridge: University Press, 1971); W. C. van Unnik, “Reisepläne und Amen-Sagen, Zusammenhang und Gedankenfolge in 2 Korinther 1:15–24,” in Studia Paulina in honorem J. de Zwaan, ed. J. N. Sevenster und W. C. van Unnik (Haarlem: De erven F. Bohn, 1953) 215–34.
J. L. Wu
Gerald F. Hawthorne, Ralph P. Martin and Daniel G. Reid, Dictionary of Paul and His Letters, 557-60 (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993).Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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educational addendum:
CREEDS, EARLY CHRISTIAN. Christian creeds have grown out of the life of faith itself. No council decided the church needed creeds, and no church assembly until quite recently appointed a committee to write a creed. The church has generally been very modest in writing creeds, doing so only when compelled by the demands of the community of faith itself.
The origin of creeds is rooted on the one hand in the nature of revelation itself, which elicits interpretations by those who receive it that are given expression in words, images, and propositions. Faith is the act of intelligible beings as well as of the human will and affections. Karl Barth has written, “Just because he is intelligens, the Christian of all men, has to learn to discern with agonizing clarity what is conceivable by him about God” (1960: 20–21). What cannot be thought clearly and expressed cogently cannot be the basis of life commitment.
Faith itself seeks intelligibility. On the one hand, it seeks the intelligibility of faith itself so that the content of faith can be communicated in intelligible images and in descriptive propositions. On the other hand, faith seeks to understand the world in the light of what it perceives to be the revelation of God.
Creeds are also rooted in and bear the marks of history. Situations in the life of the community of faith have called for creeds, such as heresy, persecution, and worship itself. Controversies within the community have demanded that the community clarify its own judgment as to the content of faith. In addition, great dangers from without which have pressured the church and challenged its deepest commitments have also compelled the church to declare unequivocally its deepest commitments. Creeds therefore bear not only the marks of the believing person, but also the marks of the history in which they have come to be.
Creeds are intentionally catholic. They may bear the marks of their particularity and of a specific perspective and place. The basic intention, however, is to state the faith not of a partisan group but of the one holy catholic church.
The authority of creeds varies. Generally the word “creed” is given to the short and brief statements of the ancient catholic church, such as the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed. The comprehensive Reformed statements of faith are usually labeled confessions. However, there is no established terminology. Protestants in particular have always insisted that creeds are subordinate to Scripture, but at times Protestant churches have used creeds with an equivalent authority. The early Reformed creeds were written with the awareness that a creed ought to be a confession in a particular time and place, and that no one creed should have universal significance. Karl Barth in the 20th century has reiterated the same conviction. Creeds therefore may have normative authority, or they may be the occasional confession of the way the church understands Christian faith in a particular time with no claim to finality. At the other extreme, confessions may be regarded as simply descriptions of Christian belief and practice with no decisive authority.
A. Sources of Creeds
1. Liturgy and Worship. The liturgical life of the church called for creeds of various types. Rules of Faith, varied and without precise language, served the needs of preaching and teaching without stifling creativity. Declarations of faith by the worshiping congregation, in distinction from Rules of Faith, had to be precise, fixed, and economical in the use of words. Rules of Faith may be found in various forms in the writings of such early theologians as Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen.
Creedal statements from the beginning have been associated with baptism. Hans Lietzmann argued that the root of all Christian creeds is the formula for belief pronounced by the baptizands or pronounced in their hearing and assented to by them before baptism.
The creedal form that was used in baptismal rites in the 2d and 3d centuries was interrogatory. One of the best examples of the developed form of the interrogatory creed is found in the Apostolic Traditions of Hippolytus (ca. 215):
Do you believe in God the Father all-governing? Do you believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was begotten by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary, Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and died (and was buried) and rose the third day living from the dead, and ascended into the heavens, and sat down on the right hand of the Father, and will come to judge the living and the dead?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, in the holy church, and (in the resurrection of the body)?
Creeds also became part of the liturgy of the holy communion in the 5th century. This practice gave the Nicene Creed widespread authority in the life of the church.
2. Education. The teaching ministry of the church also called for creeds. The mother creed of our Apostles’ Creed developed in Rome in the 3d century when the interrogatory creed of baptism was turned into a declaratory creed. This became part of catechetical training when the bishop traditioned the creed to the catechumens and when the catechumens rendered it back as their own witness of faith. Creeds were also used as a basis of catechetical lectures, as in the case of the catechetical lectures of Cyril of Jerusalem.
3. Interpretation. Creeds were a useful hermeneutical guide. Biblical studies were carried on and theology was formulated under the guidance of rules of faith and creeds which were the church’s best wisdom as to how the Bible should be understood and the faith expressed.
4. Apologetics. Heresy was still another occasion for creedal formulation. Older creedal scholars, such as A. C. McGiffert (1902), argued that the refutation of heresy was a primary factor in the development of the Apostles’ Creed. For example, the affirmation that God created the heavens and the earth stood over against the conviction that the created world was evil and the work of a lesser god. Others have argued against McGiffert, that heresy was not a necessity for such Christian affirmations as the goodness of creation.
5. Evangelism. Christian witness made use of creeds as Christians defined themselves over against the pagan society. It also enabled the Christian to render a firm and clear testimony in the face of persecution.
B. Forms of Creeds
1. The Bible. Precise, fixed creeds did not appear until the 3d and 4th centuries of the church’s history, but the process that culminated in them had its beginning in the historical credos (Deut 25:5–9 and 6:21–25) and in the declaratory affirmations of the OT (Deut 6:4–5 and 1 Kings 18:39). The NT church in preaching, singing, praying, and witnessing increasingly gave expression to Christian faith in more or less fixed formulas, for example, in 1 Cor 15:3–7; Phil 2:6–11; Matt 28:10; and Rom 10:9. Some creedal statements are simple christological affirmations declaring the lordship of Jesus Christ (Mark 8:9, 1 Tim 3:16, Romans 10:9). Others are two-article formulas confessing both God and Christ (1 Cor 8:6). Three-article statements affirming Father, Son, and Holy Spirit appear in Matt 28:19 and in 2 Cor 13:13, which is a pretrinitarian formulation.
2. Ecumenical Creeds. The creedlike statements of the NT and early Christian writers such as Ignatius, as well as the Rules of Faith, were replaced by precise creedal formulas which served the liturgical and catechetical needs of local churches. In the East, the creeds varied from church to church, but in the West, the creed of Rome exercised a dominating influence over the great churches in the West. One of the daughter creeds of Rome became the established version of the Apostles’ Creed. It first appeared in southwest France sometime in the late 6th or 7th century. Its present text is found in the De singulis libris canonicis scarapsus of Priminius, which is dated between 710 and 724. This creed, which owed much to Rome, became the common creed of the Frankish empire and was finally adopted in Rome. It became the most universal creed in the West, but it was not known in the East. The first creed to have synodical authority was promulgated by the Council of Nicea (325) in response to the teaching of an Alexandrian presbyter named ARIUS concerning the deity of Jesus Christ. Christians had spoken of Jesus as Lord, Savior, the Word, Son of God, Son of man, prophet, and priest. All these refer to the activity of Jesus Christ and his relation to us.
Arius changed the question. He did not ask how Jesus Christ is related to us or what he means to us. He asks the prior question, “Who is Jesus?” Is he really God? Or is he a creature? Arius declared that he was a creature, but the Council of Nicea took a creed of an Eastern church and added to it four formulas which stated without ambiguity that Jesus Christ was truly God. The key formula was “of the same substance as the Father.” The Nicene Creed, which is used in worship today, is dated from the Council of Constantinople in 381. All creeds that use the phrase “of the same substance (reality, being, essence) as the Father” were regarded as Nicene. The Council of Constantinople also eliminated the anathemas from the Creed of 325 and added a statement affirming the deity of the Holy Spirit as well as the one holy catholic church, the forgiveness of sins, and the resurrection of the dead. The Council of Nicea, in affirming that Jesus Christ was truly God, raised the question of the humanity of Christ, and therefore of the doctrine of the person of Christ. The church of the 5th century, in an amazingly catholic theological endeavor, defined its understanding of the person of Jesus Christ at the Council of Chalcedon (431) in which it affirmed that Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man in one person (one acting subject).
The Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius but by some Augustinian theologians sometime after the middle of the 5th century. Its use has declined because of its anathemas, but recent studies by J. N. D. Kelly have pointed to its theological excellence. The Definition of the Council of Chalcedon (451) was the definitive statement of the ancient church on the person of Jesus Christ, but it was never used in worship as were the other three creeds.
3. Creeds of the Eastern Church. The Nicene Creed has always been used in the Eastern churches. Later doctrinal statements included the Orthodox Confession of Peter Mogilas (1643), the Answers of Jeremiah (Patriarch of Constantinople) to Lutheran Theologians (1576), the Confession Prepared by Metrophanes Critopolus to Explain Eastern Orthodoxy to Protestants (1625), the Russian Catechisms, especially the Longer Catechism of Philaret (1839), a confession appearing under the name of Cyril Lucar (1629), Patriarch of Constantinople, which was sympathetic to Protestantism and which was repudiated by the majority of Orthodox. The Confession of Dositheus, approved by the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 in opposition to the Protestant sympathies of the previous document, is more representative of the Eastern church.
4. Roman Catholicism. The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (1545–63) were formulated in the context of the Protestant Reformation. It also narrowed many of the options of the very fluid theology of medieval Catholicism. The creed of the Council of Trent (1564) is a short summary of the lengthy Tridentine document. The Council of Trent fixed the shape of modern Roman Catholicism. There have been other notable pronouncements of doctrine, such as the Dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary (1950), in addition to numerous papal encyclicals of considerable importance. The whole shape of Roman Catholicism received a new interpretation in the work of Vatican Council II (1962–65).
5. Protestantism. Protestants were prolific writers of confessions. These include Martin Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses (1517), the Augsburg Confession (1530), the Apology of the Augsburg Confession (1531), the Smalcald Articles (1537), the Treatise on the Power and the Primacy of the Pope (1537), the Small Cathechism of Dr. Martin Luther (1529), and the Large Catechism of Dr. Martin Luther (1529). Calvinists and Reformed Protestants wrote many creeds, the most typical of which are the Ten Theses of Berne (1528), the Gallican Confession (1529), the Scots Confession (1560), and the second Helvetic Confession (1566).
Seventeenth-century Protestantism produced the Westminster Confession (1647) and the Westminster Catechisms, which became the dominant Reformed statement for English-speaking Presbyterians, and also the Canons of Dort (1619). The Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England (1563) combined Calvinist and Lutheran influences, as well as an indigenous English tradition with that of the Catholic tradition. At the other extreme of the Protestant Reformation were statements of the radical Reformers such as Schleitheim Articles of 1527.
6. Contemporary Confessions. Numerous confessions have been written in the 20th century. Some of these, such as the Barmen Declaration (1934), were in response to National Socialism. The Confession of 1967 of the United Presbyterian Church (USA) was the attempt of a denomination to formulate its faith in contemporary idiom and in response to contemporary problems. Some of the most interesting of the 20th-century confessions have arisen in younger and non-Western churches, such as the creed of the Batak Church (Great Synod of the Huria Kristen Batak Protestant Church of Indonesia, 1956).
Bibliography
Barth, K. 1960. Anselm: Fides Quaerens Intellectum. London.
Kelly, J. N. D. 1972. Early Christian Creeds. 3d ed. New York.
Leith, J. H. 1982. Creeds of the Churches. 3d ed. Atlanta.
McGiffert, A. C. 1902. The Apostles’ Creed. New York.
Schaff, P. 1877. Bibliotheca Symbolica Ecclesiae Universalis: The Creeds of Christendom. 3 vols. New York. Repr. Grand Rapids, 1966.
JOHN H. LEITH
John H. Leith, "Creeds, Early Christian", in , vol. 1, The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, ed. David Noel Freedman, 1203-06 (New York: Doubleday, 1992).Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Super Tramp said:Josh said:
Logos is NOT currently promoting and advertising a product solely to advance Church of Christ, Finnish Lutheran, Mennonite, Congregational, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Assembly of God, Methodist, Unitarian, Quaker, or Jewish theologies. But Logos IS certainly doing this with Catholic theology. This has been clearly demonstrated.
"clearly demonstrated"? Don't tell me you actually believe Logos is proselytizing for the Catholic Church! Logos is doing nothing more than selling books that are related to Bible study & theology.Maybe if we "Protestants" would get busy & surpass the Catholics in numbers we would see more of "our" works getting published. Another thing to be thankful for is; we did not have to wait for 20 years before Logos got around to publishing Luther, Spurgeon, the Church of God Digital Library Collections, or even Stone-Campbell material.
I didn't mean for my comment to be so ambiguous, but I had mentioned in one of my previous posts how this goes slightly beyond just selling mere books, specified collections, or discounted bundles of the Catholic variety. It appears that Logos is specially catering to Catholic needs in ways they do not do with other denominations. For instance, not only did Logos create Verbum, but Logos is currently producing and advertising the video series Catholic Practicum where Logos staff are demonstrating to Catholics how to use Logos software/resources within a "Catholic Scripture study methodology."
Can you imagine if Logos produced a video series called 'Jehovah Witness Practicum' and provided Jehovah Witnesses with important insights and tips concerning how to use Logos within a Jehovah Witness Scripture study methodology!!
Now, surely I'm not suggesting that Logos is proselytizing for the Catholic Church (in fact it's obvious that they reject many of the Catholic teachings), but I do think that their desire to capture the Catholic market share has caused them to produce products that has directly encouraged and endorsed the study of erroneous Catholic doctrine. I don't think they should be doing this for any denomination.
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Josh said:
Now, surely I'm not suggesting that Logos is proselytizing for the Catholic Church (in fact it's obvious that they reject many of the Catholic teachings), but I do think that their desire to capture the Catholic market share has caused them to produce products that has directly encouraged and endorsed the study of erroneous Catholic doctrine. I don't think they should be doing this for any denomination.
Josh, I think you have gotten drawn into this argument in a way you don't really mean. By your logic, the Lutherans should complain that Logos encourages and endorses the study of erroneous Calvinist doctrine. The Calvinist should complain that Logos encourages and endorses the study of erroneous Arminian doctrine. You are aware of the confessional aspect of Lutheran Bible Study? Should Logos not include Lutheran Bible Study.
[sorry I can't find my Lutheran image]
Or consider the Anglican 3-legged stool approach to Bible study. Should Logos not include Anglican Bible Study?
Or consider the Wesleyan quadrilateral approach? Should it be excluded?
There is nothing in Catholic Bible Study that is not also present in one or more of the above. As I keep saying, the issues of canon and method are not specifically "Roman Catholic" ... they represent 80% of Christendom. Verbum appeals to a broad range of Logos users even if Logos markets towards the largest market share i.e. Catholics. I am certain that the Practicum will meet the needs of a broad range of denominations ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dear Luigi: I have shared some interesting things from my own life with you in an effort to help you better understand the things of which you speak.
What I have been trying to help you see is that you do not understand, as yet, the things of which you speak.
Words have meaning.
You make it apparent you do not understand the meanings of many of the terms you are using. You make claims about others that you do not know, you make claims about the study habits of people/groups you know nothing about.
Quite frankly: you just don't know enough about the subject matter to be speaking to it.
You really need to take the time to study these things before commenting on them.
You don't like Logos having Verbum. Ok, noted, thank you for your opinion.
The rest of it is just simple ignorance on your part, that is apparent and, no one blames you for that, you are just saying the things someone has falsely told you.
However, choosing to remain in that state is to be "willingly" wrong, and that you are accountable for.
To say things like : catholics don't study as much, we use Liturgy to avoid study and the many other "jabs" you take, well, it's ludicrous . It shows your lack of education first, it shows your lack of study time second, and, by not taking any advice on the subject matter, shows you have an obstinate streak.
Luigi: Clergy in liturgical churches are often some of the best educated people in the communities in which they live. Most degrees are four year and more. Most have several degree's including: Psychology, Psychiatry , Sociology, Ancient History, Philosophy , Social Services, Counseling, Addiction Therapy, Mathematics , Biology, Microbiology, Medicine, Physics etc., etc., etc. Many have Doctorates in Ancient languages like Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Egyptian etc. Doctorates in Archeology and the list goes on and on.
Many clergy are taught at several different universities spanning the entire globe.
Any Word study you do in Logos is going to include the input from Catholic scholars because Protestant and Catholic Scholars work together on these resources and no Protestant Scholar would ever say: Catholics don't study the Word of God as much.
Why?
They know better, they are informed.
The average lay person sits under the teachings of very educated teachers who desire the laity to be well read, well educated in the gospel and encourages them all to study , read, contemplate the Word of God daily, hourly and for all their life.
Luigi: We read and hear Scripture in every service: Old Testament reading, a Psalm, An Epistle and the Gospel. 80 percent or more of the Liturgy itself is directly from Holy Writ.
Our Daily prayer structure is the same pattern and we do these prayers several times a day.
Again, my suggestion to you is to first educate yourself better, you are worth the effort, give yourself the opportunities to learn more than you have learned, there is much to see, much to learn. You only have so much time Luigi, use it well, read widely, study well, contemplate, meditate on all the things that are there to be studied of God's interaction with His people. Your Bright! Your just stuck in a cage someone else created for you, however, that cage is not locked, it was unlocked by Love a long time ago. Come out of that cage, use the resources you already have and know the incredible freedom you have and study, read, allow yourself to ask questions, see the beauty of "all" that God has been and is doing.
God has a great deal for you to learn Luigi, you just have to be willing.
I pray this helps.
Blessings.
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Dear Josh: Logos has been doing this for years for Protestants, now, they are doing one for catholics.
Thats fair.
Again, as MJ has pointed out, the differences are not just labels and denominations ( I hate that word) , there are a lot of things in play here: different books, some tagging differences, resources etc.
Catholics need training on the software just like everyone else and that training needs to encompass the work we do.
You train everyone on excel, fine.
But the advertising dept. needs to be trained in Publishing software, you don't train them in Excel to accomplish that. I doubt anyone complains that "those Publishing people get their own Label", Microsoft should change that.
Just saying.
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Deleted by poster - having a formatting problemSaw this on the Beta Forum
tom:I am attempting to set the Verbum switch, but it is not working.Tom, I don't remember right now: do you own a Verbum package? Otherwise Logos won't recognize the command.
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Luigi Sam: Quote
Put simply Verbum = "the word" just like Logos does, and Catholics are aiming to separate itself from the other 'Christian denominations' and use "Verbum' as their software platform instead of integrating as ' one Christian denomination' using the Logos platform Label. End Quote
Historically it was not the Catholics that separated themselves from the other Christians. Starting with Martin Luther it was the other Christians that separated themselves from what was then the universal Christian church. They stayed the same. It was the others that changed. But this is a mute point.
MJ. Smith: Quote
Respect for Orthodoxy makes me say probably none since 1054 when two idiots ... okay, my opinion doesn't exactly toe the party line on either side of the schism. End Quote
The party line is wrong! Calling those two pig headed is an insult to pigs. Their pride was only surpassed by that of Lucifer. IMHO of course.
Also thanks for the “educational addendum:”
Josh: Quote discounted bundles of the Catholic variety. It appears that Logos is specially catering to Catholic needs in ways they do not do with other denominations End Quote
What about the discounted bundle labeled Portfolio? Said to be targeted for Evangelicals – why would a Catholic want that set?
Josh: Quote Can you imagine if Logos produced a video series called 'Jehovah Witness Practicum' and provided Jehovah Witnesses with important insights and tips concerning how to use Logos within a Jehovah Witness Scripture study methodology!! End Quote
Most likely will not happen. That group and the Mormons tend to buy inside their own and would not conceder a Logos product in numbers that would pay for the work.
Josh, I was going to say more but Fr. Charles R. Matheny and MJ Smith have said all that is needed
To both Josh and Luigi Sam: you have been answered, in Love, by those two.
Catholics are more than 50% of all that call on the name of Jesus. Logos is a company. A company MUST maximize sales. How many of your fellows have not yet bought Logos? Why? If they are not buying Logos in larger and larger numbers then where can Logos go to find new customers? If it upsets you that Logos had to start selling to the Largest Christian Group then perhaps your group had better set its plans to convert all of those Catholics to your way of thinking and then they will buy the vanilla version of Logos along with many copies of Portfolio. [[When that happens Logos will have no customers for Verbum Capstone]] Why did you not buy Verbum Capstone? (Rhetorical question) Because it offers you nothing that you want. That is what many Catholics say about Portfolio.
Or on the other hand maybe, just maybe, you should upgrade to Verbum Capstone and then compare what is said there to what you have been taught about the Catholic teachings. You have been lied to. All of the enemies of a group lie and twist the teachings that they don’t understand to present them in the worst possible light. [[Don’t worry about being lied to – your church fathers were only repeating what the Catholic church fathers started – twist the words of those others – brand the others as heretics – now we are just doing to the Catholics what they did to the Gnostics and others [I am not saying that the Gnostics were right just that not all that was said against them was true] – what happened to LOVE? Were we not told to love even our enemies?]
I repeat: To both Josh and Luigi Sam: you have been answered, in Love, by those two and others.
[[I could have replied to each in a separate post but am tiring to keep my post could down]
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Luigi: Clergy in liturgical churches are often some of the best educated people in the communities in which they live. Most degrees are four year and more. Most have several degree's including: Psychology, Psychiatry , Sociology, Ancient History, Philosophy , Social Services, Counseling, Addiction Therapy, Mathematics , Biology, Microbiology, Medicine, Physics etc., etc., etc. Many have Doctorates in Ancient languages like Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Egyptian etc. Doctorates in Archeology and the list goes on and on.
Many clergy are taught at several different universities spanning the entire globe.
Any Word study you do in Logos is going to include the input from Catholic scholars because Protestant and Catholic Scholars work together on these resources and no Protestant Scholar would ever say: Catholics don't study the Word of God as much.
Why?
They know better, they are informed.
The average lay person sits under the teachings of very educated teachers who desire the laity to be well read, well educated in the gospel and encourages them all to study , read, contemplate the Word of God daily, hourly and for all their life.
Luigi: We read and hear Scripture in every service: Old Testament reading, a Psalm, An Epistle and the Gospel. 80 percent or more of the Liturgy itself is directly from Holy Writ.
I can confirm what Fr. Matheny says from a non-Catholic, Anglican perspective. The liturgy revolves around the scriptures. I have heard more scripture in Episcopal services than I ever did when I grew up in a fundamentalist church. When I first came to the Episcopal Church since there was no Christian Reformed Church in the area I was then in [Note: The CRC was not the fundamentalist church I mentioned] in order to have my daughter baptised, I didn't really appreciate the liturgy, but it grows on you as you learn more about it. Take time to learn.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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FYI...The Universal church was split will before Martin Luther came along. The Great Schism happened during the eleventh century.David Ames said:Historically it was not the Catholics that separated themselves from the other Christians. Starting with Martin Luther it was the other Christians that separated themselves from what was then the universal Christian church. They stayed the same. It was the others that changed. But this is a mute point.
And Luther did not remove himself from the Roman Catholic Church - he was trying to reform the church when he was excommunicated from the church.
IMHO, no one can claim the high ground concerning Christian unity.
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David Ames said:
Historically it was not the Catholics that separated themselves from the other Christians. Starting with Martin Luther it was the other Christians that separated themselves from what was then the universal Christian church. They stayed the same. It was the others that changed. But this is a mute point.
We Lutherans will not concede that point. We claim that we were kicked out, largely for a fusion of Augustine's theology of Grace with Cyril of Alexandria's Christology. I could go on to argue the point, but that is off topic. For the official Lutheran position, please see Augsburg Confession, end of Part One and for how much we are willing to compromise, see Apology to the Augsburg Confession 14.
Speaking for myself, I find that in discussions I have to often defend Rome, because they also occupy much of the same ground as I wish to defend, as a Lutheran - in spite of our differences.
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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tom said:David Ames said:
Historically it was not the Catholics that separated themselves from the other Christians. Starting with Martin Luther it was the other Christians that separated themselves from what was then the universal Christian church. They stayed the same. It was the others that changed. But this is a mute point.
FYI...The Universal church was split will before Martin Luther came along. The Great Schism happened during the eleventh century.
And Luther did not remove himself from the Roman Catholic Church - he was trying to reform the church when he was excommunicated from the church.
IMHO, no one can claim the high ground concerning Christian unity.
You, are correct on all counts. I was being too general. True, the R C C removed Luther but those that followed him 'might' be said to have left. and Yes, there is no high ground. WE have all gone astray. And as for that other split I made a comment on it elsewhere.
The problem with this forum is that when we are 'speaking' to one intended person we trip up lots of others. We will teach the person that I meant to reach the rest of history over time after we resolve our current schism [fancy name for split] - then, when they are ready, if ever, we will get into the Great Schism. [[in some ways what happened then is just what is happening now - we / they were / are talking at and not to each other. And we use Jesus as a 'weapon' instead of as a guide and mentor]]
EDIT: Add that Ken McGuire is also correct - I was being too general and forgot that I was talking to thousands instead of just one
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Yes to Ken and Tom on some points, though we have to try hard to not get into theological discussions ( man! thats hard isn't it?) .
I think the thing we all can do though is show support and encouragement to Luigi so that he can expand his studies and:
Support the good decisions Logos has made, which in the end, do help us all. Lets face it, the more software and Libraries Logos seeks, the more resources they can go after for all of us. The better Logos can deal with Publishers and Publishing issues, the more we all benefit. This too leads to being able to get more programmers, more folks on staff to do tagging work etc. More R&D will mean better software at some point.
I'm not the "fan boy" type ( Lord knows some of you have heard my railings on software issues) , but we do need to Appreciate what Logos, Accordance, Bibleworks provide for all of us and, urge them on to do better and better.
We need to understand that competition improves things for all of us, thus a breakthrough at Accordance or Bibleworks is also in our favor here, A breakthrough here, is a benefit there as well.
A Catholic Collection here, put pressure on the other Software makers, opened up publishing and publishers ( thanks Logos, you are appreciated) , more Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran resources are going to open up yet more possibilities everywhere. ( I can't wait -Bonhoeffer anyone?) It's all quite simply a "Win-Win" for everyone.
I have been writing and calling Biblical Software companies for ten years, asking for what Logos "has done" with these resources. Logos is the first one to do it. There have been publisher issues, financial issues and-Fear. ( Just telling it like it is ). Fear of backlash, fear of conversations like these.
Bob Pritchett and Logos deserves our heart felt : "Thank You All" for breaking through all those barriers to get us these titles, tools and moving/expanding the whole industry into wider and deeper areas.
We will soon have, quite literally, "Thousands" of new resources , titles, authors, and, tools to access them properly.
This is very, very exciting and is NOT just for any one group, but for all of us.
Soon, we will have at our disposal , at our fingertips, everything a really good research library has- ( and much of it in english), thats incredible!
I just hope and pray that Luigi and others can see that What Logos has done and, is doing, benefits us all, no matter what your background is.
I have a large physical library and still have some books ( Protestant and Catholic ) that are not available in software, but that situation is changing pretty fast. I have some rare books, out of publishing , but I can see the day coming when those too will be available to everyone again.
I say: Bravo Logos, Bravo indeed!
Thank you Logos, thanks for the risk, thanks for not letting fear control you, thanks for allowing us to choose, thanks for being pioneers and going where others would not or could not. History will tell the whole story, I think Logos will do well there. Logos decision surely improves it's chances of living long into the digital age.
I for one appreciate all the work and risk and, as Steve Jobs would say: "I voted with my wallet".
Blessings all.
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Ken McGuire said:
We Lutherans will not concede that point.
"We" as in you and Tom, then, because this Lutheran is not going to let Luther off the hook that easily, and would prefer not to have opinions ascribed to her.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:Ken McGuire said:
We Lutherans will not concede that point.
"We" as in you and Tom, then, because this Lutheran is not going to let Luther off the hook that easily, and would prefer not to have opinions ascribed to her.
Am i the cause of a Schism in the Lutheran Church? [I hope not] I was wrong, I was too general.
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Luigi Sam said:MJ. Smith said:
Logos has chosen to use "Logos" to refer to the shorter canon / non-liturgical base and "Verbum" to refer to the longer canon / liturgical base. Many of us hope to see "Devar" to refer to a Jewish oriented version.
Hi MJ,I respectfully think you are trying to minimize the issue.
Put simply Verbum = "the word" just like Logos does, and Catholics are aiming to separate itself from the other 'Christian denominations' and use "Verbum' as their software platform instead of integrating as ' one Christian denomination' using the Logos platform Label.
Actually, M.J. couldn't get this issue minimized enough. LOGOS is a business. Like any other business- if you bring enough customers who want a particular setup the business will deliver it. LOGOS is no different. If you read the threads you will have read many posts where someone commented that some (often many) resources were of little or no interest to them. If enough people ask for a new set LOGOS will deliver. Verbum simple delivers this set for a particular group of people who want this particular slant on their resources and is large enough to make it cost-effective . No more, no less.
Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB and iMAC
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David Ames said:
Am i the cause of a Schism in the Lutheran Church? [I hope not]
Don't worry. Lutherans don't need any help to create schisms. Just a few days ago I found out I've been excommunicated. By the 3rd largest Lutheran church in the world, the Mekane Yesus Church in Ethiopia. Not that they know who I am, of course. I share the honour with the largest Lutheran church in the world, my own, as well as the fifth largest, the ELCA. Good thing I'm not planning any trip to Ethiopia.
The irony is that the Mekane Yesus church has its roots in Swedish missionary work. We have at least one missionary family there even now. I still haven't heard what's going to happen with them.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Will LOGOS' pandering to special interest groups never end? [;)]
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tom said:
he was trying to reform the church when he was excommunicated from the church.
Warning: theological warning. Being ex-communicated means that he was unable to receive communion (and other sacraments) until he repented ... We don't have an unbaptizing rite to remove him from the catholic church. And many of his reforms did go forward in the Church eventually.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
We don't have an unbaptizing rite to remove him from the catholic church.
"I unbaptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
Heavenly Father, we thank you that by water and the Holy Spirit you have bestowed uponthese your servants the retention of sin, and have returned them to the old life of condemnation. Harden them, O Lord, in your Holy Spirit. Give them an inquiring and discouraged heart, the fear to will and to persevere, a spirit to know and to oppose you, and the gift of sorrow and reject all your works.
Amen.
[:P] [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Actually, Catholics don't even really understand
the concept of denomination - they simply think of themselves as
members of the universal church (add the typical Jesus, Holy Spirit,
apostolic faith bit). The same is true of the Orthodox and the Church of
the East ... and for many Anglo-Catholics ... and for a whole bunch of
other people.MJ. Smith said:No universal (ecumenical) council was strictly RC. Catechisms are available in Lutheran, Baptist, Unitarian .... flavors. I also have Catholic catechisms that are not Roman - Byzantine and Ruthenian to be precise.
Hi MJ, thanks for taking the time to reply.
basically, what I meant by the topic of Catholics when I replied to Charles ( my re-quote below) is that in my experience I have heard Catholics say 'but im not Roman Catholic'. When Catholics say this to non-Catholics ( protestants that have no ties to Catholicism), the protestant immediately thinks:
- they are not in full harmonious communion with the pope,
- they are do not accept the pope's authority,
- and they do not accept the mandatory universal teaching beliefs that the pope & related councils have obliged all Catholics to believe, ( ie an anathema from the pope applies to them because of not abiding by those mandatory universal doctrines.)
- additionally the catholic them selves seems to say it when they also disagree with an obligatory belief (ie the catholic says "im not Roman Catholic" in the sense of "I can disagree with this mandatory belief because I am not Roman Catholic"), and the protestant thinks what just happened? this sort of Catholic church doesn't believe the mandatory teachings that are universally applied by the pope.
Im not trying to point the finger to anyone, but it seems that often when a lay catholic is asked a question, their first reply is that they are not Roman Catholic therefore your question does not apply to them.
So my point was that the word catholic is not properly understood even by lay Catholics, or alternatively, some Catholics presume at least one of the above applies to them, and that they are not obliged to agree with all the mandatory universal doctrines. The other alternative is that sometimes the catholic church itself prefers people to think that 'but im not Roman Catholic' is a preferable response for catholic to say to a non catholic in order to avoid a conversation about the faith. ( and I'm not saying this in a rude way - this is my experience, and the only possible conclusions that I can think of.
And relating it back to Charles post, my point was that the word catholic is often mixed up with the denomination catholic (that is all catholic churches which have the word 'catholic' in their title (IE not Orthodox churches etc) which are in full communion with the pope are are obliged to believe all universal teachings as handed down by the pope and related councils.
Luigi Sam said:Additionally you fail to mention:
there is Roman Catholicism, and Catholic churches which say they are
not Roman Catholics. They define themselves as separate, but in actual
fact they are still apart of the Roman Catholic Church ( That is they
are: in full harmonious communion with it, and accept the pope and the
teaching thereof).If I am wrong tell me this in a brief summary:
1. when did the 'catholic churches' ( that entitle themselves
'catholic' and whose priests wear the catholic white collar etc) define
themselves as not RC?2. what RC catechisms and decrees remain as adopted by the catholic
("but not RC") church (and what year did they stop being accepted )?3. Do they both have any councils and catechisms in common today?
4. what decrees does the 'catholic but not RC' differ in each council & catechism?
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Luigi Sam,
I was raised in the Stone-Campbell tradition in a very rural community - our class of 10 was the largest ever for our 3 room 8 grade school. "Town" claimed a population of 125 which I always claimed included the dogs and Grandma's goats. The ignorance you attribute to non-Catholics does not match my experience - although when a Greek order of nuns set up in the Simcoe mountains, people had to ask and listen to fit them into the religious landscape. I have offered to provide a reading list on church history and liturgical theology. It's your decision as to what you wish to know and the accuracy you require of yourself.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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