OT: Intriguing article on digital Bibles
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let the reader understand
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Denise said:
In all this discussion, the Lord's apostles have not yet weighed in.
Let me quote from the well regarded Apostolic Constitutions concerning new converts to the Faith:
"Let those who have brought them bear witness for them, whether they are able to listen."
The 'listening' here refers to being able to use the speaking voice function in electronic Bibles.
Sophistry
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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alabama24 said:
What? I don't understand your point.
Sorry, about that. It, was a failed attempt at being funny. However, my point was that all translations are equal in being interpertations of scripture. Also, I think it is a good idea for OL texts and people who can read them to be present whenever a congergation meets.
alabama24 said:If it is WRONG to use another translation because it causes your mind to wander and to create disunity in worship
I am not sure there is a 'wrong' or 'right' with out respect to the type of congergation.
If, the congergation is highly liturgical, uses a classical or an acient ecclesiatical language in worship then I could see where it might be hard to follow along with service if one was using a different translation. I think it might be something along the lines of the way most congergations tend to use the same book of Psalms, Song book, or Hymnal.
Here, is an example of a where having a different translation with different commentary became an issue:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/case_missing_bible
Anyway, I do get your point even though I haven't yet been in a congergation where people were using smartphones, tablets, or different translations in worship service.
Grace and Peace
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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To me the issue is not what version an attendee reads to themselves. I really don't care so long as they read silently. The question raised by the article in the original post has to do with electronic devices. If I sit between two people, one reading a different version paper Bible to themselves and the other reading the same version as I but on an electronic device, I will be more distracted by the latter.
No, I see nothing sinful about the device itself but what effect it has on the worship experience of others does matter. Would it be wrong to use an audio Bible in worship service? What if I am blind? Would my personal needs outweigh those of my fellow worshippers?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
No, I see nothing sinful about the device itself but what effect it has on the worship experience of others does matter. Would it be wrong to use an audio Bible in worship service? What if I am blind? Would my personal needs outweigh those of my fellow worshippers?
Matthew, may I assume that the scripture for the day is read aloud? This used to be the practice in the early church. When we read in Re 1.3
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy
or, as in the venerable AV
Blessed is he that readeth,
The NRSV only makes clear the meaning of the Greek ὁ ἀναγινώσκων since a relatively small number in that day could actually read so that there was a lector. The blind is therefore in the position of the original recipients of the letter and not at any disadvantage by not being able to read the text. I would suggest that you try sometime going to a service and simply listening to the reading without following along in your own text. Sometimes I think we need to develop a habit of actually LISTENING.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Matthew, may I assume that the scripture for the day is read aloud?
Yes, it is.
George Somsel said:The blind is therefore in the position of the original recipients of the letter and not at any disadvantage by not being able to read the text. I would suggest that you try sometime going to a service and simply listening to the reading without following along in your own text.
[H] I am personally in the habit of listening. My eyesight is rather poor and I trust my pastor to read what is actually written. When I do try to follow along it is with my nose in the Bible. My comments were intended to be rhetorical. If someone did not come to listen they should have stayed home.
I think the practise of following along is a modern attempt to be like the commended Bereans, "searching the scriptures." Although they were not searching a leather bound KJV study Bible or an iPad with Logos.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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BKMitchell said:
Sorry, about that. It, was a failed attempt at being funny.
No problem. [:)] I don't know how much of a point I was trying to make other than to Razz my 37 year old friend George. [:P]
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
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alabama24 said:
No problem.
I don't know how much of a point I was trying to make other than to Razz my 37 year old friend George. 
I wouldn't want to mislead anyone into thinking I'm younger than I really am—don't forget that I'll be 39 on my next birthday so that makes me 38 now. [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Super Tramp said:
No, I see nothing sinful about the device itself but what effect it has on the worship experience of others does matter. Would it be wrong to use an audio Bible in worship service? What if I am blind? Would my personal needs outweigh those of my fellow worshippers?
Good point! If someone were sitting next to me in a worship service listening to a Walkman or an ipod that might be distracting and if they were doing so without head phones that would create some issues.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Lee said:
Are intelligent saints on this forum going to stand for these positions:
(1) using electronic devices during service is ALWAYS bad,
(2) allowing congregants to read from their preferred translations is ALWAYS bad?
(1) Have used my laptop to take notes on the sermon for years. If asked to look up the scripture am most likely to paste in into the notes.
(2) Often try to use the same version that the speaker uses. And sometimes compare it to my favorite later.
(3)The suggestion of First the church at school - a planed study, Second the service with the sermon and Third the class to discuss the sermon sounds interesting. [if we can keep the people at church all day] [Words have power - using all of the [pick favorite language here - I use English] versions help find the OL meaning [sometimes] ] [but then which OL?]
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Me too, since the winter 2011/2012!:
David Ames said:(1) Have used my laptop to take notes on the sermon:
Lee said:Are intelligent saints on this forum going to stand for these positions:
(1) using electronic devices during service is ALWAYS bad,
Disclosure!
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The Gospel Coalition decided to get in on the action:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/08/19/dear-pastor-bring-your-bible-to-church/
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A sensible-sounding piece, yet somewhat slim on scriptural principles...
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Lee said:
A sensible-sounding piece, yet somewhat slim on scriptural principles...
If you are saying it is slim on scriptural references, I agree. But I find it full of scriptural principles.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I love the piece.
This is exactly why Logos4 and the Logos5 were such a major mistake. In Libronix, there's no sinful temptation to 'preach from your iPad'.
EDIT: After seeing Paul's comments below and then re-reading the piece, I wonder if the fascination with a paper Bible indeed was (and is) the theology. I only note this, studying the 100-200ce time period where it's pretty obvious the 'word' has barely made its way onto papyri but that seems perfectly ok. Person-A talking and writing to Person-B.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I keep telling my friends that there is nothing wrong with using film, and all they want to do is throw their paintbrushes at me...
Favorite quote:
"...take a physical copy of the Bible with you on your next plane flight..."
Sanctimony, thy name is...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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One aspect I found myself debating with the author over was the section called "Biblical Illiteracy in the Pew". He says:
TGC Article said:Second, the tablet may, oddly enough, unintentionally and indirectly encourage biblical illiteracy in the pew.
For all the evidence he gives in that section, I can guarantee it was an issue before the tablet was even invented. I don't even think it's exacerbated by the tablet. People just don't seem the care about the Bible anymore, and I don't think it's computers that have caused that problem. People don't know context or "what's on the next page" -- not because they're reading their Bibles digitally (I wish!) -- but because they're not reading it at all.
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William Gabriel said:
One aspect I found myself debating with the author over was the section called "Biblical Illiteracy in the Pew". He says:
TGC Article said:Second, the tablet may, oddly enough, unintentionally and indirectly encourage biblical illiteracy in the pew.
For all the evidence he gives in that section, I can guarantee it was an issue before the tablet was even invented. I don't even think it's exacerbated by the tablet. People just don't seem the care about the Bible anymore, and I don't think it's computers that have caused that problem. People don't know context or "what's on the next page" -- not because they're reading their Bibles digitally (I wish!) -- but because they're not reading it at all.
I agree. It's not simply certain churches either. The average pewsitter is biblically illiterate once taken away from certain pet passages such as the creation account regardless of which church he attends. I would wager that most would not disagree with Obama's statement that Jesus asked whether we were our brother's keeper (Come on guys, it's in the story of Cain and Abel). They tend to respond to any statement as biblical if they vaguely remember hearing it at some time in a church context.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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He said that? really?George Somsel said:most would not disagree with Obama's statement that Jesus asked whether we were our brother's keeper
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Sleiman said:
He said that? really?George Somsel said:most would not disagree with Obama's statement that Jesus asked whether we were our brother's keeper
Not exactly - while misquoting what the Bible says about brother's keeper, Obama said he WAS his brother's keeper.
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If we continue in the political vein I might say something highly offensive to some of you.[:#] I think I'll go read another thread. [:)]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thanks Don, I liked the article.
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Super Tramp said:
If we continue in the political vein I might say something highly offensive to some of you.
I think I'll go read another thread. My mention of this event was not to introduce politics into the discussion but rather to illustrate how the bible is freely misquoted and accepted as reflecting the bible accurately because most don't know the bible.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Yes, it's gotten so bad that I hear in Bible class 'Looks like the Apostle Paul did an Obama here.' Or 'At verse 4, Mark has done an Obama.'
Everyone's quoting Obama for comparative exegetic techniques.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Yes, it's gotten so bad that I hear in Bible class 'Looks like the Apostle Paul did an Obama here.' Or 'At verse 4, Mark has done an Obama.'
Everyone's quoting Obama for comparative exegetic techniques.
Apparently those in your bible class are a bit more knowledgeable that the average citizen. That, however, is hardly surprising since you would expect those who actually study the bible to be at least a tad more sensitive to misquotations and misapplications.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Super Tramp said:Lee said:
A sensible-sounding piece, yet somewhat slim on scriptural principles...
If you are saying it is slim on scriptural references, I agree. But I find it full of scriptural principles.
I think you find it "full of scriptural principles" because you are already in agreement with the writer. His arguments are mostly indirect applications and a priori assumptions. If I wrote in the same vein, I could just have easily "reached" the opposite conclusion. If we want to settle this issue from a theological and scriptural standpoint, what we need are direct applications of scripture rather than reams of special pleading. [:)]
And here's the nub: if direct applications of scripture are not to be found, perhaps we should view this issue irenically, pragmatically and discerningly.
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That is the silliest article I have read in a long time. It should be retitled "How To Be Sure Your Church Does Not Reach Young Adults" (By the way, I am soon to turn 60 years old, in the prime of life. But the my church's largest group is our Young Adults in their 20's and 30's.)
Our Church has done several of the David Platt led "Secret Church" sessions, which involves intensive Bible teaching from 6 pm to after midnight. It thrilled me to see my Young Adults with their Bible apps on their smart phones hanging in there for over 6 hours of intensive Bible study, (and some of my older adults with their paper Bibles as well.)
Any Bible, paper or electronic is a one person oriented device. What a silly criticism of an electronic version! Of course, you can read aloud to a group just as easily from any Bible, paper of electronic. So there is no advantage in that respect to paper or electronics.
I sometimes use my iPad to teach Bible Study to a group of about 50 people. I have individually asked a number of the group it the electronic device was distracting. No one has yet felt that it was, and most of them did not even realize that I had not used a paper Bible. My iPad is in a leather cover, and they assumed it was a book.
Before Bibles were on smartphones, few of my young adults brought them to Bible study. Now many of them have Bibles on their smartphones. They follow along and discuss. A BIG improvement, in my opinion.
On the rare occasion that I get to attend a Bible study or worship service that I am not leading, I always take my iPad and use my Logos app.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
Our Church has done several of the David Platt led "Secret Church" sessions, which involves intensive Bible teaching from 6 pm to after midnight. It thrilled me to see my Young Adults with their Bible apps on their smart phones hanging in there for over 6 hours of intensive Bible study, (and some of my older adults with their paper Bibles as well.)
We were, however, talking about the regular communal service of the church and not about bible study. Few, if any, would depreciate the usage of electronic media in venues other than the main service.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Michael Childs said:
Our Church has done several of the David Platt led "Secret Church" sessions, which involves intensive Bible teaching from 6 pm to after midnight. It thrilled me to see my Young Adults with their Bible apps on their smart phones hanging in there for over 6 hours of intensive Bible study, (and some of my older adults with their paper Bibles as well.)
We were, however, talking about the regular communal service of the church and not about bible study. Few, if any, would depreciate the usage of electronic media in venues other than the main service.
How valid is that distinction, and how significant is that distinction? Can we make allowance for different expressions of "service"?
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I haven't read the whole thread, but I am beginning to realize that I must come from a different planet from most of the rest of you; I would never, ever even think to take an iPad into Mass. Or an iPhone, or anything else of that nature. I would be the equivalent of, I don't know, coming in wearing plastic devil's horns or something. LOL.
Obviously I'm in the minority here. But yeah, Not. Ever. Going. To. Happen.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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