OT: Intriguing article on digital Bibles
Comments
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Interesting discussion. I think a look at history might be in order.
There is really only one way to study the Scriptures, and that was back in the day when we carved everything on a stone tablet. Now that was a true Spiritual experience, I mean nothing compares to the reading of the Word when you're holding 50 pounds of stone.
But then the scroll makers showed up, obviously the people were alarmed with such a modern convince, but in time it became obvious that God intend the scrolls to be rolled open and read at the start of a service.
After that along came those guys who wanted to cut the scrolls and bind the pieces together. Blasphemous! God only intended the Word to be rolled!
Next thing you knew some guy comes up with a way for a machine to print out the Word of God so all could own a copy. Yes! A machine! We are all dammed! Burn him!
And now we have to deal with the sacrilegious using their plastic devices to magically make the Word of God appear on a screen. Horrible!
Give me stone or give me death!
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:
Interesting discussion. I think a look at history might be in order.
Give me stone or give me death!
[Y] And remember when the Community's Bible (chained to the altar) gave way to the family Bible which became the personal Bible.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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William Gabriel said:George Somsel said:
As far as I'm concerned it is still today MORE than a faux pas to be using an electronic device in church. Church is a communal experience whereas one who uses an electronic device is turning it into an individual experience. If that's what you want, take your electronic device and go home.
The youngins are leaving the Church at an alarming rate. I wonder if there's a connection between that fact and what you've said. Please explain to me how paper vs. electronic Bible reading is a gospel issue worth dividing over? Please explain to me the fundamental difference between having your nose stuck in a book versus hovering over a phone wrt the communal experience?
EDIT: I guess what I'm getting at is that telling people to leave your community is not promoting the communal experience...
Please explain how having everyone looking at an electronic device rather than a paper book prevents the younger generation from leaving the church. Please explain how having each person looking at a different translation while the OT, Epistle and Gospel are being read enhances community. It reminds me of the passage in Judges where each did what was right in his own sight. Personally even if the pew bible is the AV or the NKJV I use the one in the pew unless I use the original.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Aubrey Malphurs said:
as a side note: the design of the jar used to be VERY difficult to get the Ketchup (or is that Catsup?) out of the bottle [There was even an advertising initiative exaggerating this anticipation]. I'm sure when the condiment was offered in squeeze bottles, the Heinz purists threw a fit!
I think I'd break out into the "Ode to Joy" if they were to make it impossible to get it out of the bottle. I think it's a four-letter word.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Thomas said:
as a side note: the design of the jar used to be VERY difficult to get the Ketchup (or is that Catsup?) out of the bottle [There was even an advertising initiative exaggerating this anticipation]. I'm sure when the condiment was offered in squeeze bottles, the Heinz purists threw a fit!
But the plastic changes the taste!!! [;)]
You've got to learn how to use the bottle the right way. If you smack the base of your palm, right by your wrist, where they've imprinted the 59 on the glass, then the ketchup will flow down at just the perfect rate.
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Denise said:
Much indeed depends on the church. Here, there's mucho walkins (visitors) who have their iphones/ipads but not their Bible. The younger ones I very much doubt they even have a paper Bible. I'm down to 1 which has some encouragement from my parents.
When I go to the Navajo church I always take my phone/Bible. The children like to play with it. It's their future and best to see God being read where their friends see many negatives.
I'd assume that's the whole point of FaithLife, Proclaim and now m.ed is this very point: recognizing 'electronics' but building in community.
That's one of the reason for having pew bibles in addition to ensuring a uniformity of text during the reading.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Please explain how having everyone looking at an electronic device rather than a paper book prevents the younger generation from leaving the church. Please explain how having each person looking at a different translation while the OT, Epistle and Gospel are being read enhances community. It reminds me of the passage in Judges where each did what was right in his own sight. Personally even if the pew bible is the AV or the NKJV I use the one in the pew unless I use the original.
You're missing my point.
There are lots of reasons people will leave the church. You can't prevent them from leaving by "offering them what they want." I do not subscribe to the contemporvant movement as a way of "fixing" church.
However, I do believe that if you have an attitude in church that communicates "you're not welcome here" about non-essential issues*, that will drive people away--that will destroy the community you seek to preserve.
*
George Somsel said:If that's what you want, take your electronic device and go home.
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George Somsel said:
Please explain how having everyone looking at an electronic device rather than a paper book
Is "everyone" being forced to use e-bibles or are individuals allowed to choose if they prefer paper or plastic?
George Somsel said:Please explain how having each person looking at a different translation while the OT, Epistle and Gospel are being read enhances community.
Unless you believe a particular translation is inspired, the use of various translations promotes diversity of understanding which can prompt discussions so that the community sharpens one another as they seek to find the original author's meaning rather than uncritically being handed a dictate. This assumes that one is willing to learn from others within the body of Christ.
As one user told Jack Caviness yesterday "even I am occasionally wrong, even if I can't remember the last time it happened" [:D]
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/73798/516448.aspx#516448
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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George Somsel said:
If it were a matter of glancing down at a scripture reference on an electronic device rather than in a print bible (such as the pew bible), I wouldn't object so much. I have read discussions of, basically, doing a study on a passage during the service. I think such a practice defeats the entire purpose of gathering together as the BODY OF CHRIST rather than distinct individuals. I do take my own Biblia Sacra Utriusque Testamenti to follow the readings but I switch to the Psalm in the Book of Common Prayer when it comes time to chant the psalm (though it's actually printed in the bulletin). The entire point is that this is a COMMUNAL EXPERIENCE OF THE BODY OF CHRIST and not simply individual study. If that makes me a curmudgeon, so be it.
I think that you make a good point here George. Church is a communal experience (or at least should be).
On the other hand I think the days are changing and we will see more and more people bringing their digital devices to church. I don't think we can (or should) stop this trend. Instead I think we need to focus our efforts on educating how to best use the devices in the church.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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David Thomas said:
Unless you believe a particular translation is inspired, the use of various translations promotes diversity of understanding which can prompt discussions so that the community sharpens one another as they seek to find the original author's meaning rather than uncritically being handed a dictate. This assumes that one is willing to learn from others within the body of Christ.
Yes, I don't know how many discussions I suffered through were each person said "I think it means …" when they have no knowledge of the original. Each man did that which was right in his own eyes.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Sleiman said:
Agree. I belong to a strong liturgical tradition. In liturgical worship, there is something attributed to objects used in the liturgy, be it candles, altar, icons, cencers, etc... that thing is its sole purpose of use. It has to do with the meaning of holy (or sanctified) which, contrary to what many people think it means (the eradication of something evil), is "being separated unto God" or in other words, having the distinct purpose of glorifying God. Objects used in liturgy should be holy just as the liturgy itself. Maybe not absolutely necessary but very appropriate and fitting. An obvious example of this in the Bible is the Arc of the Covenant, the holiest of objects in the Old Testament and you can understand how it was treated with utmost respect.
Tablets and iphones etc... have a plethora of other uses (no matter how good and wholesome they are) than just use in liturgy.On the other hand, for personal prayer and study, I see no reason why not.
I, too, agree with the writer of the article for much the same reason.
My church is not all that liturgical but we also view corporate worship as sanctified. We have responsive readings so generally everyone uses the same Bible version. (Reading multiple Bible versions aloud and in unison would foster more confusion than using different hymnals.[:O]) Electronic Bibles are limited almost exclusively to the college students. Many view their use as divisive. The congregation is requested to silence all cell phones when worship service begins. There is also a standing request that the youth not have texting devices in the service.
The respect for the worship service extends to other areas such as modest clothing, not bringing your Starbucks into service or talking out loud. Personal worship is encouraged but not to the disruption of corporate worship.
I know the day is coming when the electronic Bible is the main Bible used but even LifeChurch encourages "the gathering" of the saints together. btw: I really like Craig Groeschel's preaching. I find LifeChurch a bit too casual for my preference.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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George Somsel said:
Yes, I don't know how many discussions I suffered through were each person said "I think it means …" when they have no knowledge of the original. Each man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Here is where electronic devices come in handy in class. I like to say: "Well, you have over 2000 years of scholarship and translation in your hand, lets take a look and see what it actually means..."
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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William Gabriel said:
You've got to learn how to use the bottle the right way. If you smack the base of your palm, right by your wrist, where they've imprinted the 59 on the glass, then the ketchup will flow down at just the perfect rate.
You know that and I know that but how many frustrated people don't? [Y]
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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George Somsel said:David Thomas said:
Unless you believe a particular translation is inspired, the use of various translations promotes diversity of understanding which can prompt discussions so that the community sharpens one another as they seek to find the original author's meaning rather than uncritically being handed a dictate. This assumes that one is willing to learn from others within the body of Christ.
Yes, I don't know how many discussions I suffered through were each person said "I think it means …" when they have no knowledge of the original. Each man did that which was right in his own eyes.
I agree completely (I had to confront a "right thought, wrong text" comment just last week).
But the process of talking through it and being refined by others is HOW community is developed.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Bruce Dunning said:George Somsel said:
If it were a matter of glancing down at a scripture reference on an electronic device rather than in a print bible (such as the pew bible), I wouldn't object so much. I have read discussions of, basically, doing a study on a passage during the service. I think such a practice defeats the entire purpose of gathering together as the BODY OF CHRIST rather than distinct individuals. I do take my own Biblia Sacra Utriusque Testamenti to follow the readings but I switch to the Psalm in the Book of Common Prayer when it comes time to chant the psalm (though it's actually printed in the bulletin). The entire point is that this is a COMMUNAL EXPERIENCE OF THE BODY OF CHRIST and not simply individual study. If that makes me a curmudgeon, so be it.
I think that you make a good point here George. Church is a communal experience (or at least should be).
On the other hand I think the days are changing and we will see more and more people bringing their digital devices to church. I don't think we can (or should) stop this trend. Instead I think we need to focus our efforts on educating how to best use the devices in the church.
I could agree to that. I'm particularly concerned with people using different translations in church. It is, of course, not that one translation is inspired or inherently better than all others but that it promotes community experience. If they're all reading the same translation, why not just pick up the pew bible? I use a "dumb phone" so I don't have the ability to have my own text in church (and if I mistakenly even take it to church, I remove the battery). My main concerns are (1) Differing translations (2) Studying rather than participating with the congregation. There is one day when we use different translations—Pentecost Sunday when we have readings in various languages.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Thomas said:
But the process of talking through it and being refined by others is HOW community is developed.
I have 6 days a week I can share with other Christians regarding perspectives gleaned from Bible study. The day I go to worship is reserved for the Apostles' doctrine, not my fellow neophytes.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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George Somsel said:
I'm particularly concerned with people using different translations in church.
I am curious about one thing... Why is it OK for you to bring an OL copy, but someone else shouldn't be using a different translation? [:P]
It is also important to remember, that we come from a diversity of traditions. I presume the OP comes from a Presbyterian background. I don't know what your background is, but it sounds fairly liturgical. Although I don't come from a liturgical background, I appreciate liturgy. I think your arguments make much more sense in that background than in mine.
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alabama24 said:George Somsel said:
I'm particularly concerned with people using different translations in church.
I am curious about one thing... Why is it OK for you to bring an OL copy, but someone else shouldn't be using a different translation?
It is also important to remember, that we come from a diversity of traditions. I presume the OP comes from a Presbyterian background. I don't know what your background is, but it sounds fairly liturgical. Although I don't come from a liturgical background, I appreciate liturgy. I think your arguments make much more sense in that background than in mine.
It's OK to have an OL copy precisely because it's the OL.
Background? I grew up in an independent fundamentalist dispensational church. I changed to the Christian Reformed Church when I was in college (at Calvin). When I was in Massachusetts it was 30 miles to the nearest CRC church so I transferred to the Episcopal Church to have my daughter baptized. At first I didn't appreciate the liturgy considering the background from which I came, but it has grown on me.
EDIT: I might note that in the Episcopal Church you will find everything from very low church churches which might almost be indistinguishable from many Baptist churches other than in celebrating the Eucharist every Sunday and baptizing infants to high church churches which might lead you to think you walked into a Catholic service.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Super Tramp said:David Thomas said:
But the process of talking through it and being refined by others is HOW community is developed.
I have 6 days a week I can share with other Christians regarding perspectives gleaned from Bible study. The day I go to worship is reserved for the Apostles' doctrine, not my fellow neophytes.
Are these mutually exclusive? I guess we have different understandings of the purpose of corporate gathering. There is room in my ecclesiology for 2 Tim 2:2 and Acts 2:42 (devoted to the apostles' teaching AND the fellowship) on Sunday as well as Mon-Sat. I have had some GREAT conversations with other believers immediately after the worship service when the Holy Spirit used something in the proclaimed Word to surface an issue in a fellow believer's obedience that we were able to refine by discussing it immediately.
As a matter of fact, our best attended adult Sunday School class is one where the sermon that is preached during our 1st Service is discussed in casual community during our 2nd service.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David Thomas said:
Are these mutually exclusive? I guess we have different understandings of the purpose of corporate gathering. There is room in my ecclesiology for 2 Tim 2:2 and Acts 2:42 (devoted to the apostles' teaching AND the fellowship) on Sunday as well as Mon-Sat. I have had some GREAT conversations with other believers immediately after the worship service when the Holy Spirit used something in the proclaimed Word to surface an issue in a fellow believer's obedience that we were able to refine by discussing it immediately.
The important point to note is that this is AFTER the service.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Thomas said:
As a matter of fact, our best attended adult Sunday School class is one where the sermon that is preached during our 1st Service is discussed in casual community during our 2nd service.
I really like that idea.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Todd Phillips said:
This may be your experience with phones (production server down, etc), but my phone is quiet unless I need to be contacted. I'd say that most people aren't on-call and don't have to worry about receive random messages at all times. On Sunday mornings I put my phone on do-not-disturb, but it's probably unnecessary since I've never received a call or text during that time.
HOWEVER, I don't generally use my phone for reading my Bible---I use my iPad, which is not set up to receive messages of any kind. It has no distractions when I'm in a reading app. It's a quiet device. Doesn't that change your view on this point?
Yes, in fact it does make a difference to me, in the bounds of my argument, that your iPad is a quiet device. Because in that case, the "interruption" point doesn't apply. I think smartphones and tablets are used differently--people don't generally carry a tablet around and whip it out of their back pockets at the bus stop. So the way we use them--and are habituated to use them--is different.
That's partly why in the article I focused primarily on smartphones (although admittedly I may have confused the issue by mentioning the iPad by reference at the end).
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William Gabriel said:Chi-Ming Chien said:
I agree with you that context matters. What is accepted as general practice within a particular community does, I believe, make a difference. As members of one another we affect each other, so the community's expectations and practice matter.
Yeah, I think it's always good to run through the filters of 1 Cor 6:12 and Rom 14:13.
Wise words.
Thanks for the welcome to the forums. To answer other folks' question, I'm not a user of Logos (although seeing David Thomas' post on layouts with screenshots makes me think I want to be...). I just saw referrals to my blog post coming from this forum and decided to check it out.
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David Thomas said:
Are these mutually exclusive? I guess we have different understandings of the purpose of corporate gathering. There is room in my ecclesiology for 2 Tim 2:2 and Acts 2:42 (devoted to the apostles' teaching AND the fellowship) on Sunday as well as Mon-Sat. I have had some GREAT conversations with other believers immediately after the worship service when the Holy Spirit used something in the proclaimed Word to surface an issue in a fellow believer's obedience that we were able to refine by discussing it immediately.
I think having a meeting to discuss the passage of the sermon after the service is a great idea. Whip out your ipad there, but not in the service. Use a different translation THERE if you wish.
It's better than going home and having "Roast Domine" around the dinner table.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Thomas said:
As a matter of fact, our best attended adult Sunday School class is one where the sermon that is preached during our 1st Service is discussed in casual community during our 2nd service.
I believe "iron sharpens iron" and it can be a good thing in a casual setting. But I have also experienced (in a former church I attended) a very negative form of that sharing. We had a woman teaching against the observance of Christmas she learned from JWs. Wholesale acceptance of just anyone teaching is a dangerous and unwise thing. 2 Timothy 2:2 says entrust to faithful men. Not all are faithful and not all deserve to be listened to just because they have a Bible app.
David Thomas said:I guess we have different understandings of the purpose of corporate gathering.
Probably a little different. I view worship service as primarily for worship of our God and fellowship primarily for edifying each other. Electronic Bibles welcome at fellowship.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Are intelligent saints on this forum going to stand for these positions:
(1) using electronic devices during service is ALWAYS bad,
(2) allowing congregants to read from their preferred translations is ALWAYS bad?
I hope not.
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Lee said:
Are intelligent saints on this forum going to stand for these positions:
(1) using electronic devices during service is ALWAYS bad,
(2) allowing congregants to read from their preferred translations is ALWAYS bad?
ABSOLUTELY !!!!! [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Lee said:
Are intelligent saints on this forum going to stand for these positions:
(1) using electronic devices during service is ALWAYS bad,
(2) allowing congregants to read from their preferred translations is ALWAYS bad?
I hope not.
I will contend that
- using electronic devices during service is NEVER necessary
- using a single translation fosters unity (unless a congregant is illiterate and needs a picture Bible)
- each person choosing a version to soothe their itching ears is a bad idea. [6]
But then, not everyone thinks I am intelligent.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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"By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another the same translation"
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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I think you guys are stuck in a middle ages cathedral (just joking). The world is changing quickly. In kids Bible study, a cornocopea (sp?) of interactive media. Then put away the excitement ... it's time for (continued) worship with the older ones.
http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/15/technology/innovation/microsoft-touchscreen/index.html
I still think the Logos view is the future. And 'church' is going to soon be really exciting, with a return to the need for Pauline cautions.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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