Why are not User Manuals Free?
Comments
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
It's called the Wiki...
Not really, no. I'm talking about a manual, which would be designed to exist in .docx and .pdf format. There might also be a version tagged for use as a personal book, if people felt ambitious.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
It's called the Wiki...
Not really, no. I'm talking about a manual, which would be designed to exist in .docx and .pdf format. There might also be a version tagged for use as a personal book, if people felt ambitious.
i expected that objection but if you really want a PDF the wiki could be converted into PDF or doxc format, it's just HTML. Yes it would take a fair bit of formatting work.
However Personally I don't think it should be up to users to create the manual when Logos already has an authorized trainer creating a manual. We are letting Logos off the hook once again by accepting their refusal to come up with a better solution to a long existing disconnect between user need and their willingness to meet that need. Users should not have to fill the void. Logos let's face it are making money out of us, so they should be providing a manual.
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
i expected that objection but if you really want a PDF the wiki could be converted into PDF or doxc format, it's just HTML. Yes it would take a fair bit of formatting work.
Much as it takes formatting work to participate in a wiki, which is one reason why they usually don't work. In contrast, basic Word formatting is easy and commonly known and well understood. I imagine Pages for Mac is the same in those regards.
Disciple of Christ (doc) said:However Personally I don't think it should be up to users to create the manual when Logos already has an authorized trainer creating a manual. We are letting Logos off the hook once again by accepting their refusal to come up with a better solution to a long existing disconnect between user need and their willingness to meet that need. Users should not have to fill the void. Logos let's face it are making money out of us, so they should be providing a manual.
I think you're right. In an important way, however, your argument is irrelevant. I see no signs that Faithlife will create a manual along the lines of what we want. I think that forum members could, and I think that we could do it very, very well, if and only if we want to. I think that such a manual would benefit everyone who used the forums, including its creators, and that it would also benefit Faithlife, which none of us are opposed to. It might even trigger Faithlife to create its own manual.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Actually they are offering 'free' courses right now at: https://www.logos.com/intro-offers.
However, does anyone know if this also apply if you upgrade from L5 to L6?
Dell XPS 17 9700, W11, 32GB, 1TB SSD, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060
L5+L9+L10 Portfolio | Logos Max | Translator's Workplace0 -
Michel Pauw said:
Actually they are offering 'free' courses right now at: https://www.logos.com/intro-offers.
However, does anyone know if this also apply if you upgrade from L5 to L6?
It applies to any purchase. I got it with my nicot/nicnt in the Christmas sale. But I think the resource is about Bible Study in general. In the opening part I have looked at, nothing was logos specific.
On the main topic, it is strange that software as powerful as Logos (and at this price point) does not include a manual for power users. Much of the available free content is outdated and those of us who are bivocational find ourselves with the third job of Logos trial and error. I do not see any logical reason why FL would not include a manual, except to prevent offending the official trainer and losing commission. But, the quick start videos are probably good enough for most people and the guides and fact book do a lot automatically. Logos is intuitive enough in its main feature set that I can't complain too much.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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A manual is not an unreasonable request given the premium price of Logos Bible Software. It would be nice to have it simply download as part of the software, rather than be printed. It would not add much cost to the software, as it would only need to be done when a new version of the software comes out. I presume Logos' talented employees understand enough about how the software works that a manual showing how to use the software would not be that difficult. It does not need to be as inclusive as those sold by third party venders. But it should help anyone learn to do all the basics of using the software.
Logos is a great product and a great company, but sometimes they seem to lack common sense. The Forums are great, of course, but there are a lot of people who would never use them. For one thing the Forums can be intimidating to the uninitiated or the shy. They wouldn't use them because of threads like this one, for example.
I think Logos is miles ahead of competitors in the quality of their product, and miles behind some competitors in their common sense with regard to customers.
But that is just my opinion.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I agree a readable startup manual targeted to specific use would be good. I don't recommend Logos for anyone, due to expense and difficulty. It was the same comment my brother-in-law (missionary) made years back. Ditto my present pastor.
But I've long been an advocate (sort of) on 'painting' the Logos software into the specific use ... which denomination, and what the person wants to do. The idea that 'people will figure it out' is naive. They generally just move on. That's why I really like what MJ is trying to do with Verbum.
Myself, I need a 'technical manual'. I don't see anything like that available, Logos or not. Videos are almost always light-use. The wiki periodically touches on it. I get most of my 'technical' info from the old Libronix CDs, etc.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I also think the lack of a pdf training manual is a big weakness in the package. Yes there are videos but I also like to have document which can go into more detail on each feature. Faithlife products though good are not cheap. It seems from some of the responses to this thread that there are those who will defend the indefensible for some reason I can't fathom.
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Anthony Keating said:
I also think the lack of a pdf training manual is a big weakness in the package. Yes there are videos but I also like to have document which can go into more detail on each feature. Faithlife products though good are not cheap. It seems from some of the responses to this thread that there are those who will defend the indefensible for some reason I can't fathom.
Can I Get An AMEN!!!! [Y] [Y]
Anthony Keating said:It seems from some of the responses to this thread that there are those who will defend the indefensible for some reason I can't fathom.
AMEN!!!! [:D]
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Michael Childs said:
The Forums are great, of course, but there are a lot of people who would never use them. For one thing the Forums can be intimidating to the uninitiated or the shy. They wouldn't use them because of threads like this one, for example.
Yep.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Michael Childs said:
I think Logos is miles ahead of competitors in the quality of their product, and miles behind some competitors in their common sense with regard to customers.
Yep,
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Michael Childs said:
A manual is not an unreasonable request given the premium price of Logos Bible Software.
As I said before, clicking on the question mark in the program brings up a decent guide.
Compare Pericopes
Graphically displays pericope boundaries for multiple Bible versions.
1. Click on Tools | Passage Analysis and click on Compare Pericopes at the bottom of the window.
2. Click on Pericope Sets at the top, next to Reference box to drop down a list of available pericope sets based on the Bible versions in your library.
3. Select the sets you want to compare.
4. Type a passage or pericope in the Reference box and press Enter, or first choose a pericope and passage from the suggested matches displayed as you type.
5. Hover over or click on the pericope title to see the passage in an appropriate Bible.
Each pericope set heading has a column of pericope titles below it, aligned with the verse numbers on the left to show the extent of each pericope.This gives a good basic usage as the above example shows. As I said above there could be expansion but it is a decent built in manual. Unless Logos help is very different than verbal help we have a decent little manual for it built in. As I said above it could be more robust but it is decent.
-Dan
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Dan ... I'm just curious. Are you suggesting others should limit themselves in their needs? No offense, but I'd never suggest the help button for instruction for anyone at church. I'll admit, given my humor, I'd point to the help button for a smarty that missed the obvious.
Now, before you get mad at me, a few weeks back, I intro'd a thread on copying the whole help file into a PB where it's easier to manage, highlight, make notes and so forth. But that's only because I have such a low opinion of the Logos leadership.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dan it is not reasonable for a beginner. They will not get that far. They won't even know compare periscopes exists let alone look for it, if they even know what pericope means. I had never come across the term until I came across it on the old Logos Newsgroups. The built in help file is not the answer. You only need to look at the responses in this thread and questions posted in other threads by new users if they are fortunate enough to make it to these forums, to see the internal help is only useful for those already comfortable with the software.
We are all guilty at times of making this an intimidating place for new users as Michael suggests:
Michael Childs said:The Forums are great, of course, but there are a lot of people who would never use them. For one thing the Forums can be intimidating to the uninitiated or the shy. They wouldn't use them because of threads like this one, for example.
Telling people you don't need a manual just use the help file when they clearly want one, whether you as a seasoned user needs one or not contributes to that intimidation factor - and I know that's not your intent, but it Can be off putting when someone with almost three 3000 posts says to new users forget about a manual, just use the help file - with its lack of visuals and at times highly technical language.
Michael once again nails it with the following statement:
Michael Childs said:I think Logos is miles ahead of competitors in the quality of their product, and miles behind some competitors in their common sense with regard to customers.
Common sense with regards to customers seems to have gone out of the door a few years ago now with their drive all about sales and profits. The fact that they publically floated the idea of a dating service on these forums, yet are unwilling to do a descent manual for their flagship product demonstrates how far they have gone down the road of chasing profit over showing common sense with regards to their customers.
Dan Francis said:Michael Childs said:A manual is not an unreasonable request given the premium price of Logos Bible Software.
As I said before, clicking on the question mark in the program brings up a decent guide.
Compare Pericopes
Graphically displays pericope boundaries for multiple Bible versions.
1. Click on Tools | Passage Analysis and click on Compare Pericopes at the bottom of the window.
2. Click on Pericope Sets at the top, next to Reference box to drop down a list of available pericope sets based on the Bible versions in your library.
3. Select the sets you want to compare.
4. Type a passage or pericope in the Reference box and press Enter, or first choose a pericope and passage from the suggested matches displayed as you type.
5. Hover over or click on the pericope title to see the passage in an appropriate Bible.
Each pericope set heading has a column of pericope titles below it, aligned with the verse numbers on the left to show the extent of each pericope.This gives a good basic usage as the above example shows. As I said above there could be expansion but it is a decent built in manual. Unless Logos help is very different than verbal help we have a decent little manual for it built in. As I said above it could be more robust but it is decent.
-Dan
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Great Post DOC [:)]
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Denise said:
a few weeks back, I intro'd a thread on copying the whole help file into a PB where it's easier to manage, highlight, make notes and so forth. But that's only because I have such a low opinion of the Logos leadership.
Good Post Denise, Can you help me out with a link, I tried searching for it but i'm not finding it I searched (copying help file into a PB)
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Hmmm, Bryan. I'm not sure what search term to look for (for the thread).
But it's pretty simple; you just drag your mouse down for maybe 5 minutes (I'm exagerating). Then control-C it (copy; windows). Paste into a Word doc. And compile it (has a bazillion warnings but who cares).
That's the simple way, but it doesn't create index headings. Nor does it worry about 'goto's'.
If I wasn't lazy, I'd move it into an HTML file, automatically add headers, and then recompile the PB.
That was the Logos5 help. I notice in the Logos6 help file, they got lazy, and wherever Logos6 changed Logos5, they put a 'goto', which doesn't get picked up in the easy PB method.
It'd be even more useful, pasting sections into a mindmap. I ought to do that on my iPad, after I get settled down with L6.
Below is what it looks like, just copying/pasting. I like it since in the .doc file, you can add your own notes, etc. Downside is any updates.
.
."If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dan Francis said:Michael Childs said:
A manual is not an unreasonable request given the premium price of Logos Bible Software.
As I said before, clicking on the question mark in the program brings up a decent guide.
Compare Pericopes
Graphically displays pericope boundaries for multiple Bible versions.
1. Click on Tools | Passage Analysis and click on Compare Pericopes at the bottom of the window.
2. Click on Pericope Sets at the top, next to Reference box to drop down a list of available pericope sets based on the Bible versions in your library.
3. Select the sets you want to compare.
4. Type a passage or pericope in the Reference box and press Enter, or first choose a pericope and passage from the suggested matches displayed as you type.
5. Hover over or click on the pericope title to see the passage in an appropriate Bible.
Each pericope set heading has a column of pericope titles below it, aligned with the verse numbers on the left to show the extent of each pericope.This gives a good basic usage as the above example shows. As I said above there could be expansion but it is a decent built in manual. Unless Logos help is very different than verbal help we have a decent little manual for it built in. As I said above it could be more robust but it is decent.
-Dan
I haven't used Logos Help much (hey, I'm a guy, do we "ever" read instructions?), but I've heard both it and help files in other Bible software apps (such as Accordance) are good, decent, built-in information, so I agree with you about how useful they are. It would be better if we all tended to use them a little more. :-)
For those asking if Dan was saying we don't need a help manual, to "just use the help files", I don't think Dan was implying that at all. He was just merely pointing out a free, built-in, and way underused resource that is available to us in Logos.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Funny how everyone thinks it should be easy for Logos to create a user manual but nobody can figure out how to create a PB out of a help file. Maybe you guys do need a manual after all.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
It's called the Wiki... That said I totally agree with the sentiment that something like the MP Seminar's What's new manual should have been included with all base packages. MP would have been paid and the cost to users would have been negligible in comparison to the total cost of the base package.
This would work. I'd even be willing to pay an extra $15 on my base collection upgrade if need be to have the What's New Manual integrated into the Logos download. On the "Welcome" section of the home page, Logos could prominently link to this resource, so users wanting to read it have it clearly visible upon installing L6 and have it a click away.
I guess Morris could also digitize his training manuals into Logos format and Logos could ship them in base collections for those "wanting it all".
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Super.Tramp said:
Funny how everyone thinks it should be easy for Logos to create a user manual but nobody can figure out how to create a PB out of a help file. Maybe you guys do need a manual after all.
EDIT: Remarks removed....
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Bryan,
I don't want to honor your abusive post by citing it, but this thread, that started below zero and has gone south ever since (and I'm wondering why people need to keep it alive all the time) has reached a low point that in more strictly moderated forums would invoke not only its deletion but some user banning as well. Well, I guess we all live by grace everyday.
Please consider editing/deleting your writing.
Mick.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Please, Matthew, don't.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Bryan,
I don't want to honor your abusive post by citing it, but this thread, that started below zero and has gone south ever since (and I'm wondering why people need to keep it alive all the time) has reached a low point that in more strictly moderated forums would invoke not only its deletion but some user banning as well. Well, I guess we all live by grace everyday.
Please consider editing/deleting your writing.
Mick.
NB I get what your saying, but why is it OK to write insulting remarks, but it's not Ok to respond to them. Is this not selective outrage? Why do I get called out for responding are you calling him out for inciting?
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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I think I got censored![:D] And all I did was suggest that some branks were in order ... at least until some more forum-appropriate device was created.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I think I got censored!
And all I did was suggest that some branks were in orderI had to look that up....
branksbraNGks/nounhistorical 1 an instrument of punishment for a scolding woman, consisting of an iron framework for the head and a sharp metal gag for restraining the tongue.That's Funny....LOLChristianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Bryan S. said:
NB I get what your saying, but why is it OK to write insulting remarks, but it's not Ok to respond to them. Is this not selective outrage? Why do I get called out for responding are you calling him out for inciting?
Bryan, it is true that not all forum users are treated identically. For example, a former member who wrote long and irate posts was tolerated because we knew the behavior was the result of a stroke. Another former member was allowed to go off topic to his heart's content because mental illness created some gaps in his social awareness. Yet another was tolerated as a lonely person stuck in a foreign country. When ST gets out of hand, just tell him to go mow his lawn ... he'll understand although few others will. But unless you wish to claim a special tolerance due to circumstances beyond your control, you should not try to claim such tolerance justifies your behavior. The same applies to all forum users except at most a handful at any point of time for whom circumstances are known and tolerance offered.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I think I got censored!
And all I did was suggest that some branks were in order ... at least until some more forum-appropriate device was created.I finally learn something constructive from this thread - I've never heard of "branks" before [:$] Quite interesting (and barbaric!); off to read more.
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. Because their is a perceived need in sections of the user community.NB.Mick said:and I'm wondering why people need to keep it alive all the time
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MJ. Smith said:
But unless you wish to claim a special tolerance due to circumstances beyond your control, you should not try to claim such tolerance justifies your behavior.
Point well taken, Always a pleasure MJ
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Just wondering: why should we waste our time with keeping up this thread, instead of investing the same amount of time in starting to make a manual?
It seems to me that this complaint - which is valid in my opinion - is raised several times and never will be solved to the satisfaction of the wanna-be-power-users.Dell XPS 17 9700, W11, 32GB, 1TB SSD, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060
L5+L9+L10 Portfolio | Logos Max | Translator's Workplace0 -
Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
Dan it is not reasonable for a beginner. They will not get that far. They won't even know compare periscopes exists let alone look for it, if they even know what pericope means. I had never come across the term until I came across it on the old Logos Newsgroups. The built in help file is not the answer. You only need to look at the responses in this thread and questions posted in other threads by new users if they are fortunate enough to make it to these forums, to see the internal help is only useful for those already comfortable with the software.
I choose something more advanced to show there is information on doing things... The contents starting off are below.
Help on ...
• Basics
• Installation
• How-To
• Home Page
• My Library
• Resources
• Documents
• Guides
• Tools
• Layouts
• Importing
• Advanced
• Searching
I have not said a manual is not a good idea or needed. I do not understand how using the help system is unreasonable. The Help system is laid out as a users manual would be, I have already said it would do well to be made more robust.
-Dan
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Bryan S. said:
That's the problem you made do, why? you paid dearly for a program and should you not expect the best, since they clam to be
And that is I think the crux of the issue. I've invested thousands in logos. Will likely invest a good deal more. However I have never paid a single penny for the software - only resources.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:Bryan S. said:
That's the problem you made do, why? you paid dearly for a program and should you not expect the best, since they clam to be
And that is I think the crux of the issue. I've invested thousands in logos. Will likely invest a good deal more. However I have never paid a single penny for the software - only resources.
So you're running on the engine alone with resources?
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James Hiddle said:abondservant said:Bryan S. said:
That's the problem you made do, why? you paid dearly for a program and should you not expect the best, since they clam to be
And that is I think the crux of the issue. I've invested thousands in logos. Will likely invest a good deal more. However I have never paid a single penny for the software - only resources.
So you're running on the engine alone with resources?
That is what everyone does ... on the Faithlife site you can buy resources but you can't buy software. Well, back in the days when Logos 1 was sold in boxes with disks in brick and mortar stores I suppose you actually bought software.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
That is what everyone does ... on the Faithlife site you can buy resources but you can't buy software. Well, back in the days when Logos 1 was sold in boxes with disks in brick and mortar stores I suppose you actually bought software.
Now as much as I hate to disagree with you MJ, that's not entirely true, I have L6, can you at this very moment download a free version of L6, No you can not...When I bought L6 it was not and is still not available for free, So I bought it plane and simple. and even if or when it is available for free will it be rich with all the features that my program has, once again no. I have 1930 books but logos says I have 2157. So I have 227 resources that are not book what are they? Much of it is features of the software that you cant get unless you buy it.
By the way I have a Farrari for free it yours, but I own all the gas stations and I've decided to charge 10,000 a gallon, now I do have a yugo for free as well and you can use it with some of the free gas we offer on our site, but really who wants to bee seen in a yugo. [:)]
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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I had the Logos 5 engine with nothing but over 1100 resources until I got L6 Baptist Gold. I suppose once the L6 engine comes around you can still just buy resources but for me the features that the base packages offer really enhances Bible studying and makes things much easier.
Just an opinion of mine though. There really isn't anything wrong with using just the engine and buying books/Bibles,etc though if you don't want for find the features offered useful.
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Yes, that's a major mistake seen on the forum quite a bit. You really don't need the free engine to read your Logos books. It's easy enough to simply reverse-engineer, and go from there. The EULA prohibition is just for the engine. This is why a 'manual' has never really been needed.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Jesse Blevins said:
Logos 7 should definitely include some kind of ebook manual that goes into depth with the software.
From a friendly forum discussion about new Case Frame feature in Logos 6 and Verbum 6, learned about "The Lexham Glossary of Semantic Roles", which is an encyclopedia that is included in Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade => https://www.logos.com/product/45041/logos-6-feature-crossgrade and Verbum 6 Feature Crossgrade => https://www.logos.com/product/46134/verbum-6-feature-crossgrade along with corresponding datasets. "The Lexham Glossary of Semantic Roles" is also included in many base packages => https://www.logos.com/product/46352/lexham-glossary-of-semantic-roles
A comprehensive user manual could link to this Glossary when explaning Bible Word Study sections. The link could show not licensed if feature crossgrade or base package has not been purchased. Created thread about Logos 6.0b Beta 3 Help lacking link to glossary while having two Case Frames in Bible Word Study section descriptions => https://community.logos.com/forums/t/98409.aspx
Bryan S. said:MJ. Smith said:That is what everyone does ... on the Faithlife site you can buy resources but you can't buy software. Well, back in the days when Logos 1 was sold in boxes with disks in brick and mortar stores I suppose you actually bought software.
Now as much as I hate to disagree with you MJ, that's not entirely true, I have L6, can you at this very moment download a free version of L6, No you can not...When I bought L6 it was not and is still not available for free, So I bought it plane and simple. and even if or when it is available for free will it be rich with all the features that my program has, once again no.
When Logos for Mac 1 (subset of Libronix 3) finally shipped in 2008, the software was included with a package purchase OR could purchase the engine for $ 59.95; later Logos Research Systems changed so engine software is now free. Wiki has => https://wiki.logos.com/Mac_Release_Notes_and_History with Blog link => https://blog.logos.com/2008/11/logos_bible_software_for_mac/
Concur free version 6 engine without appropriate purchase(s) will lack many capabilities and features; wiki has => https://wiki.logos.com/Upgrade_or_Crossgrade_to_Logos_6$3f
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
Common sense with regards to customers seems to have gone out of the door a few years ago now with their drive all about sales and profits. The fact that they publically floated the idea of a dating service on these forums, yet are unwilling to do a descent manual for their flagship product demonstrates how far they have gone down the road of chasing profit over showing common sense with regards to their customers.
The more I stew over it, the madder I get.
If I'd know 10% of what I know now before buying in to Logos, I'd never have bought it.
If I could get even a reasonable refund on what I've spent, I'd take it and walk away in a heartbeat. (But I can't, because I took an academic discount, not knowing the 'fine print' about that either.)
Unless and until they fix the training/documentation issues, I'll do my best to make sure no one else makes the same mistakes I did.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Michael Childs said:
Logos is a great product and a great company, but sometimes they seem to lack common sense. The Forums are great, of course, but there are a lot of people who would never use them. For one thing the Forums can be intimidating to the uninitiated or the shy. They wouldn't use them because of threads like this one, for example.
Well said. Some of the personal attacks by fanboys (and girls) when someone dares criticize Logos used to appall me, but not any more. I'm sure for new users, some of these threads are shocking and would keep them away. (When I was still relatively new to Logos, I had to take a six-month hiatus from the forums for this very reason...some of those people made me angry enough that I responded in kind, and my responses embarrassed me.)
Now I'm cynical enough that's no longer necessary. I'm sure I'm part of the problem now. That's an unfortunate necessity. I still try to help people with questions when I can (and I could help more if I had a stinkin' manual!), but I'll no longer keep my criticism of Logos quiet to appease idolatrous fanboys for whom Faithlife can do no wrong. Now it is *their* responses that embarrass me, and I do not shy away from pointing those out. And that's why I jumped into this fray on Bryan's behalf in the first place!
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Super.Tramp said:
Thank you for identifying yourself as one of the primary forum (expletive deleted) for me! Your timing could not have been any better!
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
The more I stew over it, the madder I get.
If I'd know 10% of what I know now before buying in to Logos, I'd never have bought it.
If I could get even a reasonable refund on what I've spent, I'd take it and walk away in a heartbeat. (But I can't, because I took an academic discount, not knowing the 'fine print' about that either.)
Unless and until they fix the training/documentation issues, I'll do my best to make sure no one else makes the same mistakes I did.
I think you've finally hit on the core of the problem. You are a person who stews; Logos, like any software, has flaws that will drive a user nuts if that user cannot easily adjust to the way Logos works and the way it is documented. I am a person who pushes the boundaries of the software and then get annoyed that I've lost functionality ... not knowing Logos never thought I had it (e.g. ability to create one's own timelines in L3). You took an academic discount without reading the fine print and it sounds as if you now feel trapped. When I have fine print come back and bite me, I laugh at myself for not being more cautious. You want to insure no one makes the same mistake you did - a worthwhile goal we share. However, I would ask that you do so not by universally panning Logos but by recognizing that the software and the user must be compatible. There are other Logos users who, like you, feel trapped and are unhappy with the software; there are other Logos users who, like me, take a relaxed "it is what it is and it was/is my first choice" attitude. And there are those who find a way to do what they need to do with Logos, rarely explore further or consider new options, who are very comfortable with their choice and recommend Logos highly to their friends. Please don't project your misery on them - you and Logos are a bad fit. Think of it as parallel to some of the software horror stories you read in the paper where a well-known software vendor fails spectacularly because their product was a misfit for the company/problem at hand. (My personal experience was with a time collection product that could not handle hospital requirements).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Doc B said:
Some of the personal attacks by fanboys (and girls) when someone dares criticize Logos used to appall me, but not any more.
Me Neither,
Doc B said:Now it is *their* responses that embarrass me, and I do not shy away from pointing those out. And that's why I jumped into this fray on Bryan's behalf in the first place!
Thanks for the support Doc B
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Bryan S. said:Doc B said:
Some of the personal attacks by fanboys (and girls) when someone dares criticize Logos used to appall me, but not any more.
Me Neither,
All attacks appall me but I am often amused at how "fanboy" is tossed about. It is clearly used in a subjective and pejorative manner. I prefer terms to be more objective and neutral which improves clear thinking and deescalates friction in an environment that lacks the visual and aural components of interpersonal communication. BTW some of the people most often labeled "fanboys" are the same people who push effectively for the changes that improve Logos.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well, I'm a fangirl, and I'm proud to say that. That'd be a fangirl of Libronix, of course. Which has a manual, by the way. Quite a few, due to 3rd party resource creation.
For me, the issue is a conscious decision by the Logos leadership. And if it were just some sort of 'software', whatever. But the 'leadership' portrays the software as specifically intended for spiritual development (their blog/advertising).
Thus I agree with Doc. And Bryan. And I don't agree with Bob wishing to 'de-spiritualize' the conversation, when he makes money off doing just that.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Super.Tramp said:
I am so thankful we have identified the problem. Now, if we can get Doc to stop stewing, the whole issue will be resolved.[:P]MJ. Smith said:Doc B said:The more I stew over it, the madder I get.
If I'd know 10% of what I know now before buying in to Logos, I'd never have bought it.
If I could get even a reasonable refund on what I've spent, I'd take it and walk away in a heartbeat. (But I can't, because I took an academic discount, not knowing the 'fine print' about that either.)
Unless and until they fix the training/documentation issues, I'll do my best to make sure no one else makes the same mistakes I did.
I think you've finally hit on the core of the problem. You are a person who stews;
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Denise said:
Well, I'm a fangirl, and I'm proud to say that. That'd be a fangirl of Libronix, of course. Which has a manual, by the way. Quite a few, due to 3rd party resource creation.
Despite defending the point that the help system is a good start on a manual and my heated defence of Logos with it's outage earlier this fall I in no way consider myself a Logos fanboy. Indeed many people might have accused me of being an Accordance fanboy, which i will not deny. I will not call either Logos or Accordance perfect programs. Both programs have strengths and weaknesses. I do hope Faithlife can upgrade the help system. I dare say some people (not saying anyone in this discussion) would not be happy with any results.
-Dan
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For Doc and Bryan:
Logos is in the process of digitizing Morris Proctor's "What's New in 6 Manual" as an eBook in your library:
https://www.logos.com/product/48987/logos-6-whats-new
If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.
If I did that, would you feel a little "better" about using Logos and be willing to read it and invest the time to learn the software? Additionally, if there's any questions you didn't know how to do something with Logos, I'd be willing to allow you to personally email me and I'd be happy to do my best to explain it.
If you'd rather have the hard copy instead of the eBook, that can be arranged as well.
Would you have more confidence in the software if a fellow brother in Christ paid to give you the training/manual you need?
Once you dive into the software and have a chance to truly learn it, you will see just how much it will revolutionize your Bible study. I couldn't be surviving seminary without it. If it means paying out of my own pocket to give you more confidence in Logos, I'm willing to do it. That's how much I believe it'll deepen your Bible study.
And no, I am not on Faithlife's payroll or represent the company in any way. I'm just a fellow user willing to do what it takes to see another couple fellow users satisfied.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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