Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
-
Aaron Hamilton said:
as owning something is obviously different from purchasing it
[^o)] Let me rethink that... Owning something is obviously different from renting it.
0 -
I was saving a few hundred dollars for Logos 11? Should I stop saving money for Logos 11 since it will be a monthly subscription?
0 -
Phil, thank you for bringing some clarity to this. For me, locking down the policies you articulate in numbers 1 and 3 would go a long way towards making me more comfortable.
Phil Gons (Logos) said:1. Software: Since most users are on the same version of the software and we regularly release bug fixes and maintenance improvements, everyone would continue to get those regardless of whether they're a free user, a subscriber, or a base package owner not on a subscription.
Phil Gons (Logos) said:3. Libraries: We plan to continue to offer libraries via our existing perpetual licensing model along with dynamic pricing. We haven't yet decided if we'll refresh them every two years, move to an annual release, or something else.
While I have a strong preference for being able to purchase a perpetual license for future offline features, it's the policies around the software and the libraries that are potential deal-breakers for me.
0 -
Gordon Walker said:
Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
No, but rather they could be, if they chose to take the free update (or were on an operating system version that supported it).
Gordon Walker said:Do those who stayed on [the] Logos 9 [feature set] still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
That's correct. The license gating is at the feature and sub-feature level, such that new functionality simply won't be turned on without the new licenses.
Gordon Walker said:If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
That's correct. There are some basic updates that we choose not to gate, which everyone gets by updating to the latest software application, but >95% of the new value is gated and available only to paying customers.
Gordon Walker said:If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
That's correct.
0 -
Mark and Phil:
In the FAQ section of the early-access page, it says under "What is Logos Pro" ..
"... These subscriptions mean you don’t have to wait until the next major version of Logos to get new and improved features. ..."
The IMPLICATION is that the "new and improved features" (not including AI-cloud services of course) WILL be in the "next major version of Logos", and also implicitly states that there WILL BE ongoing major versions (ie L11, L12).
Are both of those implications true, or is decision-making still in flux about them?
Please clarify as much as possible. Thanks.
PS: I decided to sign up for the early $9.99, to give it a fair try, AFTER watching the video clips that Josh posted at MP Seminars. Y'all might want to borrow those to help people see the tools in action. It *appears* that the AI can be "directed/restricted" to create its various summaries based solely on the user's owned resources, or a subset of them, or just a section or chapter of a particular book, or a sermon that they've written. Thus the AI's "summaries" don't necessarily suck in wild stuff from random web articles. THAT's GOOD. I'll be testing the early-access to see if the "search sets" are more flexible than Josh shows ... ie, a filterable checkbox-list of Library resources as a search option, or portions of a chapter, or maybe a collection of chapters from various books, etc.
=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Sean said:
I have sometimes wondered to myself: are they running out of new features to add? It must be a challenge to continuously come up with new ideas for features to develop and implement every two years.
We're definitely not running out of ideas. We could easily fill up 10–20 years of roadmap work for the ~40 developers working on our core Logos product. You're right, though, that we're doing fewer brand-new feature additions and more focused on evolving the fundamental components of the application to ensure they're rock solid and ready for the next generation of global Bible students.
0 -
Mark / Phil:
I've checked ... of the 430+ books that Logos Pro is providing for $9/99/month, there is only ONE BOOK that is not marked as "Already in your library" for me (The Old Covenant, Commonly Called the Old Testament: Translated from the Septuagint)
So, it would seem reasonable to me that I should be paying a significantly lower monthly price than someone who has very few or none of those 430+ books in their library already.
Will that be true in the future? Will a $4.99/month option be available? I'll be happy to purchase that one book if necessary. [;)]
=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Phil Gons (Logos) said:Gordon Walker said:
Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
No, but rather they could be, if they chose to take the free update (or were on an operating system version that supported it).
Gordon Walker said:Do those who stayed on [the] Logos 9 [feature set] still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
That's correct. The license gating is at the feature and sub-feature level, such that new functionality simply won't be turned on without the new licenses.
Gordon Walker said:If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
That's correct. There are some basic updates that we choose not to gate, which everyone gets by updating to the latest software application, but >95% of the new value is gated and available only to paying customers.
Gordon Walker said:If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
That's correct.
Thank you Phil, that puts a significantly different spin on the situation so far as I can see. An ongoing availability of the latest enging together with a commitment to maintain all existing licences and feature sets takes away many of my concerns about buying into Logos.
0 -
Mark / Phil
What about the Mobile version? Since I'm paying the $9.99/month, can I get access to the AI from my iphone or ipad? After all, they already require access to the cloud for the Guide tools.
=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Gordon Walker said:Phil Gons (Logos) said:Gordon Walker said:
Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
No, but rather they could be, if they chose to take the free update (or were on an operating system version that supported it).
Gordon Walker said:Do those who stayed on [the] Logos 9 [feature set] still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
That's correct. The license gating is at the feature and sub-feature level, such that new functionality simply won't be turned on without the new licenses.
Gordon Walker said:If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
That's correct. There are some basic updates that we choose not to gate, which everyone gets by updating to the latest software application, but >95% of the new value is gated and available only to paying customers.
Gordon Walker said:If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
That's correct.
Thank you Phil, that puts a significantly different spin on the situation so far as I can see. An ongoing availability of the latest enging together with a commitment to maintain all existing licences and feature sets takes away many of my concerns about buying into Logos.
I don't know how you could make it any clearer than that.
0 -
Jan Krohn said:
1Cor10 31">
Here is a potential solution...No need for subscription, No need for fixed $ amount to be paid by any Logos customers. Customers will be billed $X every time they run some AI feature. Logos can fix $X taking into account the following:
X = Cost paid by Logos to outside vendor to run AI search + Cost to Logos of providing this service by building AI tools + Profits to Logos
Logos can let customers know what $X is upfront.
Simple and perfect. No socialism, no unfairness. Everyone pays exactly for what they get.
Hi Phil and Mark and others!
Any comments on the above pricing scheme?
Let me add a few wrinkles to the above. I'd love your comments on wrinkles below.
First, As an organization, you might feel that if customers are going to be charged for each query (as per my suggestion above), then people may not even use that feature, in which case you won't get any revenue even though the features are valuable. Totally Valid concern. So how about tiered pricing with each tier allowing a certain number of queries. Let's say there are 3 tiers: $5, $10, $15/month. Let's say a customer chose the $10/month tier. You can start a counter with $10 at the beginning of the month. After each use of feature, that counter can keep dropping down. Once the counter hits $0, the customer has to buy more or else have to wait for the next month to use those features. (You can allow for carryover of leftover $ to the next month if you so desire, but you don't need to. It can be a use-it-or-lose-it feature.)
Second...I am not a tech guy, so pardon me. I am basing this wrinkle on one data point. Splunk, a data analytics firm, used to charge firm differential pricing based on how much data they wanted to be analyzed. I think this principle applies to the AI solutions you are offering. Since AI search cost increases in the size of our libraries, how about tiered pricing based on size of our libraries, with higher price being charged for bigger libraries. You can think of this as one type of dynamic pricing. So each person sees a different price depending on size of their library in terms of GB (not number of resources). You can still have 3 tiers as above, but the price of the 3 tiers will be based on size of libraries. So for one person, the 3 tiers offered could be $5, $10, $15. The same 3 tiers for a person with the double the library size would $10, $20, $30.
Would love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
0 -
Gordon Walker said:
This seems to be quite a critical point which has not been apparent to me up to now.
- Is it true to say that all users of Logos are running the same engine?
- Do those who stayed on Logos 9 still get the engine upgrade but with the newer features 'switched off'?
- If the engine is free, does that mean that an upgrade to Logos 10, for example, simply consist in a new set of content and feature licences?
If that is the case, and I purchase Logos 10 today, will I continue to get all the engine updates in the future but without new stuff 'turned on'? If so, that changes the landscape of the discussion quite significantly.
Yes.
Everybody is on Logos 32 or 33 (depending on if you have beta testing turned on), whether they are on the free version of Logos, Logos 4, Logos 9, Logos 10, whatever. The versions are when they release new collections of features and new books, but the software gets updated more or Iess like clockwork. For a while, early access to the next engine was a perk for purchasers, but after a few months, the new free features and the new engine have always been shipped to everyone. Logos 10 added new features above Logos 9 and gave me a chance to get new books at a discount. But if I had never upgraded, I could still use Logos 5 (my first version) on Windows 11 with the new engine and more features than when I bought it.
I think the reason that was not made more clear for you, as a new user, is because that has always been Logos's practice and this communication was targeted to existing customers. The engine is free, and updates are free. You get all of the features you have paid for. Major releases may add new features, some of which are free and some of which will be turned off unless you pay for them. You will be able to access your books in perpetuity, and the features you have paid for in perpetuity (as they mentioned, occasionally some features get killed because they don't work out and have very few users, but this is very rare and never anything at the core of the software).I'm not Logos staff or an MVP. I have just used it almost every day for almost 10 years as a pastor and writer, and would hate for you to miss out because of a misunderstanding.
Edit: Somehow I missed the last page of this discussion and didn't see that you had already been given an authoritative answer.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
0 -
Smart Search is working for me in Android. Since mobile doesn't support the sermon editor obviously you won't get those features. Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
0 -
Phil Gons (Logos) said:
There's important nuance to what books we're including in our software subscriptions. You can think of these subscriptions as the evolution of our existing feature sets. Increasingly over the last several major releases, we've been putting books in the feature sets, because those books are essential for enabling features to work. Features are powered by a combination of data (and media) sets and books.
Phil Gons (Logos) said:I hope this helps to clarify a bit why there are more books in our feature sets than we've included in the past.
This does help, thanks, and i am perfectly comfortable with resources included for features. Looking forward to seeing what this offers us in the future.
0 -
Jim Dean said:
It *appears* that the AI can be "directed/restricted" to create its various summaries based solely on the user's owned resources, or a subset of them, or just a section or chapter of a particular book, or a sermon that they've written. Thus the AI's "summaries" don't necessarily suck in wild stuff from random web articles. THAT's GOOD.
I too agree — THAT's GOOD. If this were not the case, it is likely that I would not have signed up for the early $9.99. The ability to search for information from my own library as I deem fit, as opposed to “wild stuff from random web articles” is very important to me.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
0 -
Justin Gatlin ...
I just tried your query and got a different collection of answers, because I have a different library, which makes sense.
However, when I tried a more focused query, attempting to limit the scope of the search to just those authors or books that identify as being in support of "young-earth" ...
"how old was noah when the flood took place, according to young-earth creationists?"
... all it gave me was a bunch of hits that seemed like an answer to a question about old-earth vs young-earth creationists. I tried rephrasing twice and with that "two level" query, the Logos "smart" AI seemed to be unable to answer the question.
=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Is it permissible to upload a "First Impressions" video? I made one today but want to ensure I'm not breaking any rules as an early access user of Logos Pro.
0 -
Jim Dean said:
... all it gave me was a bunch of hits that seemed like an answer to a question about old-earth vs young-earth creationists. I tried rephrasing twice and with that "two level" query, the Logos "smart" AI seemed to be unable to answer the question.
I think we are getting a little out of scope, so I made a separate thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221665/1290186.aspx#1290186
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
0 -
One good thing this thread did for me. I didn't have to watch the SOTU speech this week, as I spent that time reading this instead. :-)
So at least it's reduced my news consumption. :-)
Dr. Nathan Parker
0 -
Jim Dean said:
Mark / Phil
What about the Mobile version? Since I'm paying the $9.99/month, can I get access to the AI from my iphone or ipad? After all, they already require access to the cloud for the Guide tools.
Yes - with some features available today and some arriving in April.
Article summarisation and sermon assistant (iPad) are available today
Smart searching and search results summarisation are due in April
This is outlined in more detail at https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/21081346488205-What-s-included-with-early-access-to-Logos-Pro
0 -
There was a speech ? 😃
0 -
Elliott Faure said:
Hello everyone, Question: What will happen to our $9.99 price after the launch? Will we continue to be billed the $9.99 if we choose to stay, or will we have to pay more for what we have now? Is there a benefit to subscribing now versus when it is FULLY released?
Subscribe now to retain the Early Access discount
"When Logos Pro launches in the fall with the other tiers of subscription, you’ll have the option to maintain your subscription to Logos Pro or switch to one of the other subscription tiers at a continued large discount." Mark Barnes:from the first article of this thread.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Rick Ross said:
$10 a month to basically take a test drive of Ai Bible Software...maybe. AI Credits and when you run out? The Home User is not going to need this.
I think you will be surprised about what the Home User wants, especially when it comes to Searching. AI credits renew each month.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
James C. said:
Is it permissible to upload a "First Impressions" video? I made one today but want to ensure I'm not breaking any rules as an early access user of Logos Pro.
Absolutely. We'd love to see it, and I'm sure the community would appreciate it, too. Thanks for checking!
0 -
Ronald Quick said:
I already have the full feature set, so this question wouldn't specifically apply to me, but if someone wants to own all the features should they buy them now?
If they want all the L10 Features and no subscription in the future then they could wait a few months (and still be eligible for an Early Access subscription!).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Jim Dean said:
Mark / Phil:
I've checked ... of the 430+ books that Logos Pro is providing for $9/99/month, there is only ONE BOOK that is not marked as "Already in your library" for me (The Old Covenant, Commonly Called the Old Testament: Translated from the Septuagint)
So, it would seem reasonable to me that I should be paying a significantly lower monthly price than someone who has very few or none of those 430+ books in their library already.
Will that be true in the future? Will a $4.99/month option be available? I'll be happy to purchase that one book if necessary.
Three comments:
- There's a good chance that the content will change before we move out of early release in the fall. We're working on rights arrangements to be able to use a bunch of really great Lexham content. So I wouldn't form any conclusions based on the content that's presently included.
- I commented in an earlier reply that we're not really baking this content into the price of the subscription. Rather, we're considering this expansion in keeping with the principle of our feature sets, where we include content necessary to ensure features aren't empty in order to give you a good sense of what Logos could do for your with a full library on top of the software subscription.
- We'll almost certainly have different pricing for our subscriptions for new customers vs. existing customers who've already invested significantly in one or more base packages. We're still working out the details, but we don't expect to charge the same price for these two very different scenarios. In the past, we solved this with two different products (Logos Now for existing customers and Logos Cloud for new customers). To keep things simpler, we're more likely to solve it with different pricing or discounts for the same set of software subscriptions. So, your principle is right, but you've gone in the wrong direction (i.e., $9.99/mo. is likely to be the existing customer price, where new customers will pay a higher price).
0 -
Phil - How have I “gone in the wrong direction”?
Do you mean that an existing customer of 25+ months years, 14k+ titles, $28k+ investment would pay MORE for the subscription than a brand new customer, or a different existing customer with 1/20th of that investment and library?=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Jim Dean said:
Phil - How have I “gone in the wrong direction”?
Do you mean that an existing customer of 25+ months years, 14k+ titles, $28k+ investment would pay MORE for the subscription than a brand new customer, or a different existing customer with 1/20th of that investment and library?
He said precisely the opposite of that.
0 -
Jim Dean said:
In the FAQ section of the early-access page, it says under "What is Logos Pro" ..
"... These subscriptions mean you don’t have to wait until the next major version of Logos to get new and improved features. ..."
The IMPLICATION is that the "new and improved features" (not including AI-cloud services of course) WILL be in the "next major version of Logos", and also implicitly states that there WILL BE ongoing major versions (ie L11, L12).
Are both of those implications true, or is decision-making still in flux about them?
Please clarify as much as possible. Thanks.
The next major version will primarily be a software subscription (likely in four tiers—much like our feature sets) + a variety of optional but highly encouraged perpetually licensed content libraries.
There might be an option to purchase a feature set according to our traditional model, but we're not sure yet. If we offer such an option, it'll likely include only 1/4 to 1/3 of the all the new features that will be available in our subscriptions, due to the unsuitability of licensing AI and other cloud-backed features perpetually. We're not sure if we'll offer it standalone or as an optional or included component of a subscription, which improves your fallback position in the event that you stop subscribing. We appreciate the feedback we've received so far, and we'd invite others to share their feedback, too.We're also not sure what role such a perpetually licensed feature set would play for new customers. We've discussed limiting such a perpetual feature set only to existing base package owners, but that may limit our ability to serve customers in areas with limited internet access, where extended offline support is more critical. As an aside, the majority of Logos desktop works offline, and this is true whether your license is perpetual or subscription. But the license checking and time-bombing behaviors differ by license type, which makes a perpetual license more suitable for extended offline use.
For our base package libraries, little will change. We may change how we organize and expose our various tracks of libraries (e.g., general vs. specialized), which may get refreshed at different intervals (e.g., general annually and specialized as needed).
0 -
Jim Dean said:
Phil - How have I “gone in the wrong direction”?
Do you mean that an existing customer of 25+ months years, 14k+ titles, $28k+ investment would pay MORE for the subscription than a brand new customer, or a different existing customer with 1/20th of that investment and library?
I'm sorry for not being clearer. You were going in the right direction in terms of who would pay more and who would pay less, but you were starting with the wrong price when calculating what the price would likely be for existing base package owners.
You suggested it might look something like this:
- New: $10/mo.
- Existing: $5/mo.
Instead, it will likely look more like this:
- New: ~$20–25/mo.
- Existing: ~$10/mo.
I'll qualify, though, that we're still doing pricing research and testing, and we're still working through our pricing/discounting plans, the role of grandfathering, how long we'll grandfather, what the ongoing prices/discounts will be, etc. So don't quote me on those exact numbers.
My point is that the principle you articulated is informing our approach to pricing/discounting.
0 -
May I ask that whatever you do, you pick a terminology including the names of the features and STICK TO IT!! The constant renaming of packages and their elements only add to the confusion of the casual user.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Jim Dean said:
Phil - How have I “gone in the wrong direction”?
Do you mean that an existing customer of 25+ months years, 14k+ titles, $28k+ investment would pay MORE for the subscription than a brand new customer, or a different existing customer with 1/20th of that investment and library?
No, you've misunderstood him here. He meant that instead of you paying less, new customers will pay more. What they're proposing isn't unreasonable. One, albeit very oversimplified, way I like to look at it is that I will be paying for the new feature set included in Logos 11, except rather than buying the package in one bulk payment, Logos is asking me to pay in $10 increments throughout the next two years. This is because one cannot "own" the cloud-based features they are including in "Logos 11" in the same way that it was possible to "own" previous feature sets. The main way this thought breaks down is that one will never "own" the feature sets in this way. Thus, if I ever stop paying the subscription fee, I lose the features. Nonetheless, the bottom line is that this whole subscription thing is more reasonable than a lot of people believe. That said, they will have to be careful about how they implement these changes, being careful to respect the wishes of their client base in the little things, or there will be significant pushback in the Fall. Also, great marketing will go a long way in helping people understand that they're not getting a terrible deal.
0 -
1Cor10 31 said:
So how about tiered pricing with each tier allowing a certain number of queries. Let's say there are 3 tiers: $5, $10, $15/month. Let's say a customer chose the $10/month tier. You can start a counter with $10 at the beginning of the month. After each use of feature, that counter can keep dropping down. Once the counter hits $0, the customer has to buy more or else have to wait for the next month to use those features. (You can allow for carryover of leftover $ to the next month if you so desire, but you don't need to. It can be a use-it-or-lose-it feature.)
That's pretty close to what we're planning (without the carry forward).
1Cor10 31 said:Splunk, a data analytics firm, used to charge firm differential pricing based on how much data they wanted to be analyzed. I think this principle applies to the AI solutions you are offering. Since AI search cost increases in the size of our libraries, how about tiered pricing based on size of our libraries, with higher price being charged for bigger libraries. You can think of this as one type of dynamic pricing. So each person sees a different price depending on size of their library in terms of GB (not number of resources). You can still have 3 tiers as above, but the price of the 3 tiers will be based on size of libraries. So for one person, the 3 tiers offered could be $5, $10, $15. The same 3 tiers for a person with the double the library size would $10, $20, $30.
We've discussed something like this for a future v2 of our print library features, where different tiers would allow a different number of print books to be added to your library. A while back someone suggested pricing the software based on the number of books in your Logos (not print) library, but we've not explored that further. We don't want to create a negative incentive to growing your library. The credits for cloud/AI features will likely give us what we need to tier the value delivery in a way that corresponds to the subscription price.
Thanks for the suggestions!
0 -
Phil, Mark
You have done a fairly good job in responding to everyone and relieving concerns. But not all have seen those responses.
This thread is now very long. You have received it seems, very valuable feedback. It may be helpful for your team to compile all the concerns with responses into a new thread so people who are not able to wade through the many posts can be brought up to speed, not just on the planned ideas Logos has, but also addressing the many concerns in one post. This helps in communication and relieve fears.
Bob was a master at communicating with his customers. A summarized thread might help, even if it is mainly re explaining what you have already originally explained.
0 -
Mattillo said:
Another thing I hope logos considers, is finishing projects that are still out there that people have paid for such as the Lexham context commentary. I’m sure there are others, but logos should really focus on finishing what people have ready paid for before jumping to models need significant resources.
I can't even use the program anymore. Every single time I try to do anything productive with Logos, within the first 5 minutes I encounter a roadblock that is either impenetrable or requires so much time to circumvent I can't even remember what I was wanting to do in the first place. I can't even copy a block of text that is ALREADY in a note and repaste it back into the same note without losing the formatting. And when I asked a CS person if the company would fix this obvious bug, he said I should submit a "feature request" on Feedbear...because customers should have to plead with other customers to agree in large numbers that bugs should be fixed.
I have notes with Bible passages included, and it is currently IMPOSSIBLE for me to add a new passage to those notes and have the new passage take on the formatting that the already included passages have. And FL doesn't give a damn.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
0 -
I think I'm 100% out when Logos goes all out subscription and taking hostage of features as subscription. It's hard enough to recommend Logos nowdays with the pricing, now with this? I wouldn't recommend my friends & students to go into system.
And I don't believe AI is the future spiritual discipline I want the next generation to be.
0 -
Phil Gons (Logos) said:
There might be an option to purchase a feature set according to our traditional model, but we're not sure yet. If we offer such an option, it'll likely include only 1/4 to 1/3 of the all the new features that will be available in our subscriptions
That 1/4 to 1/3 would go a LONG way in keeping your client base happy. And it would ensure that if people need to/want to unsubscribe for a time, they will not lose all of their features during this time. If no feature sets are sold in the future, 10 years from now a pastor who unsubscribes for a year will find himself with a version of Logos that functions very differently.
0 -
Mark said:
Phil, Mark
You have done a fairly good job in responding to everyone and relieving concerns. But not all have seen those responses.
This thread is now very long. You have received it seems, very valuable feedback. It may be helpful for your team to compile all the concerns with responses into a new thread so people who are not able to wade through the many posts can be brought up to speed, not just on the planned ideas Logos has, but also addressing the many concerns in one post. This helps in communication and relieve fears.
Bob was a master at communicating with his customers. A summarized thread might help, even if it is mainly re explaining what you have already originally explained.
Thanks for the suggestion, Mark. We discussed doing something like this in a call earlier today. I agree pulling some of the specifics from the discussion that were light in the original message and the FAQs would likely be helpful for many.
Much of the thread has been answering questions addressed in the original communication, but I understand how it's a lot to process, given how nuanced many of these topics are, and it's tempting to jump into the discussion before fully digesting the announcement and FAQs.
Thanks to those of you who have helped us surface answers to the questions people are asking.
0 -
David Paul said:Mattillo said:
Another thing I hope logos considers, is finishing projects that are still out there that people have paid for such as the Lexham context commentary. I’m sure there are others, but logos should really focus on finishing what people have ready paid for before jumping to models need significant resources.
I can't even use the program anymore. Every single time I try to do anything productive with Logos, within the first 5 minutes I encounter a roadblock that is either impenetrable or requires so much time to circumvent I can't even remember what I was wanting to do in the first place. I can't even copy a block of text that is ALREADY in a note and repaste it back into the same note without losing the formatting. And when I asked a CS person if the company would fix this obvious bug, he said I should submit a "feature request" on Feedbear...because customers should have to plead with other customers to agree in large numbers that bugs should be fixed.
I have notes with Bible passages included, and it is currently IMPOSSIBLE for me to add a new passage to those notes and have the new passage take on the formatting that the already included passages have. And FL doesn't give a damn.
I feel your pain, and I'm sorry. I'm a regular user of our product, too, and I regularly submit bug reports and feedback to the team to try to help make it a better experience for all our users. We all care deeply about providing an amazing tool and experience that's truly delightful to use, and we all agree that there's still plenty of work to do.
Notes is example of a feature that has suffered from our current business model. Workflows and Layouts come to mind, too.
If subscription is successful, it should enable us to focus even more on these core parts of the application that haven't received meaningful updates in years. Without repeating much of what I said earlier, we do think subscription is key to enabling us to continue to raise the bar in terms of quality and utility of more of our existing features.
In this new world, success will look like making all the core features of the software feel intuitive and enjoyable to use.
0 -
mike said:
It's hard enough to recommend Logos nowdays with the pricing, now with this?
That's actually part of what we're trying to solve: putting Logos within reach of more people who don't have the money to make a big upfront purchase.
There's also the free version + content (a la carte and/or collections, bundles, and libraries) route, which may be suitable for many.
We're also very eager to explore more group licensing of Logos to churches and parachurch organizations (beyond Christian higher-ed), where Logos is made available at a compelling price point to equip pastoral teams, lay leaders/teachers, and even entire churches. This could be part of the solution for getting the power of Logos into the hands of even more people at more affordable prices.
0 -
I am signed up for Early Access. I have lightly tested out the various features except for the “Book Search” AI. Now I am getting a message:
“Monthly Limits Reached”
A few questions regarding this…
1. Will the monthly limits apply if I were to sign up to Logos Pro?
If so it would seem like the subscription would not be worth the money if it will only be good for a few days a month.
2. Will I have to wait until April to continue testing the AI features?
3. Are the monthly limits the same for each level of subscription or will the price increase based on how much the AI features are used?
Thanks,
0 -
MWW said:
I am signed up for Early Access. I have lightly tested out the various features except for the “Book Search” AI. Now I am getting a message:
“Monthly Limits Reached”
A few questions regarding this…
1. Will the monthly limits apply if I were to sign up to Logos Pro?
If so it would seem like the subscription would not be worth the money if it will only be good for a few days a month.
2. Will I have to wait until April to continue testing the AI features?
3. Are the monthly limits the same for each level of subscription or will the price increase based on how much AI features are used?
Thanks,
Hmm. That doesn't seem right. It should be very unusual to hit the limits in 30 days, let alone in a few days. I'll flag this with the team.
Can you quantify "lightly tested"?
0 -
I would say 1/2 a dozen searches in the all search and 2 or 3 summaries and may be another 6-8 sermon maker illustrations and questions. I am wondering if the error could be related to the test period coming to an end?
0 -
This would be a great middle ground. I am concerned that as features are added (and taken away) I will lose access to software that I've invested in. The AI pricing makes sense (matches what I've been comparing to). This fallback license of a particular term would assuage many of us that we will not lose access to the content we've purchased because the platform moved on.Kevin said:Subscriptions make me feel dirty, so I will unlikely subscribe for long unless there is a similar fallback license to the Jetbrains model. (https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What-is-a-perpetual-fallback-license).
I would probably be happy with $20 a month for such a license, although I appreciate a considerable portion of the subscription fee would be towards the LLM APIs, so one would not be able to fallback with those features, but definitely new regular features and fixes that do not use them I would like to be able to 'purchase' in some capacity.
I am mostly happy with Logos as it is, but would definitely like to see improvements such as link-tab leader/follower that we now have in mobile. I would be quite upset if this is introduced in desktop but the only way I can access it is to pay forever a monthly fee that incorporates a load of other features I would little use.
I would also hope bugs in current features are fixed whether or not you subscribe.
0 -
For anyone interested, here is my first look/impression video.
This is not a tutorial, just me opening up the software for the first time after the Logos Pro updates.
0 -
Phil Gons (Logos) said:
There might be an option to purchase a feature set according to our traditional model, but we're not sure yet. If we offer such an option, it'll likely include only 1/4 to 1/3 of the all the new features that will be available in our subscriptions, due to the unsuitability of licensing AI and other cloud-backed features perpetually. We're not sure if we'll offer it standalone or as an optional or included component of a subscription, which improves your fallback position in the event that you stop subscribing. We appreciate the feedback we've received so far, and we'd invite others to share their feedback, too.
I am concerned to hear that only 1/4 of the new features will be available for purchase. By features, I mean datasets like those that can be bought in the Logos Feature Upgrades. Let's imagine a Logos Library without a subscription. Without these datasets, the value of the Logos library is reduced considerably. Even interlinears are considered features by Logos. Is the Factbook also a feature? It has been repeatedly said that we don't have to worry because we will not lose our purchased books. But I bought my books digitally from Logos, knowing that despite the downside of them having no resale value and not being able to lend them, etc., I could still access them anytime, and their value would not diminish over time, rather become more accessible with newer computers and software.
I purchased Logos books (Logos editions) and didn't mind the sometimes higher cost (compared to other platforms like Accordance, Olive Tree, Kindle) because of the datasets, tagging, and fantastic functionality of Logos. I have read over and over again in your promotional posts that our library resources determine the power of the software. But now, if I want to fully use the valuable functionality that comes along with my Logos books, such as the interconnectedness of all resources and the search engines, I must subscribe and pay a monthly fee. This means that in order to get the most out of my investment, I am forced to pay on a regular basis.
I cannot decide anymore when I am ready to purchase some or all of the new available features. What if Logos deems the "notes" feature to be subscription-based? I have thousands of notes, and then they are all gone, suddenly – what a nightmare! Or what if my Logos 10 Features (Clause Search, Collections, Factbook, Passage Guide, etc.) don't work in ten years? I cannot then decide to purchase the new features that will last for the next 10 years. I may have my books to read (which you have promised in this thread), but I have downgraded from an amazing functionality in 2024 to printing and copy-pasting the pages of my Logos books to manually highlight my "purchased" resources on some printed paper because I didn't pay monthly for some highlighting feature (but maybe the printing feature will also be subscription based, then I cannot even print pages).
I spent a fortune on Logos and thought I made a lasting and valuable investment. But now, I feel trapped. I felt forced to sign up for the $10 monthly plan because of the prospect of paying $25 for actually using my hard-earned books with all the features I now cherish in the future (the kind of usage that was advertised for with those books by you and that I explicitly bought thinking they would come along with an amazing app and its features, especially with the levels Gold and above).
I sincerely hope that the AI search functions evolve quickly. In biblical studies, whenever you search for more specialized information and don't need sermon illustrations, the AI doesn't solve but creates confusion. I'm so sorry for my negativity. I'm not too fond of subscriptions in general, and maybe I overreact since Logos is so precious to me. Thank you for all your time and patience!0 -
Phil Gons (Logos) said:
There might be an option to purchase a feature set according to our traditional model, but we're not sure yet. If we offer such an option, it'll likely include only 1/4 to 1/3 of the all the new features that will be available in our subscriptions, due to the unsuitability of licensing AI and other cloud-backed features perpetually. We're not sure if we'll offer it standalone or as an optional or included component of a subscription, which improves your fallback position in the event that you stop subscribing. We appreciate the feedback we've received so far, and we'd invite others to share their feedback, too.
Jonas Weisse said:I am concerned to hear that only 1/4 of the new features will be available for purchase. By features, I mean datasets like those that can be bought in the Logos Feature Upgrades. Let's imagine a Logos Library without a subscription. Without these datasets, the value of the Logos library is reduced considerably. Even interlinears are considered features by Logos. Is the Factbook also a feature?.....
I cannot decide anymore when I am ready to purchase some or all of the new available features. What if Logos deems the "notes" feature to be subscription-based? I have thousands of notes, and then they are all gone, suddenly – what a nightmare! Or what if my Logos 10 Features (Clause Search, Collections, Factbook, Passage Guide, etc.) don't work in ten years?
The caveat is functionality/features that rely on AI. You do not lose access to your owned content like datasets, interlinears, Factbook, Notes tool. Nor will they cease to work as long as you update to the latest Logos software version (free). Ten years cannot be guaranteed, but Logos are committed to maintaining your current perpetual license.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
So, if I understand correctly, it sounds like if you stop investing in Logos today, your licenses will be honoured and they will continue to give you free updates to the software. The base software as it currently is, is a zillion times more capable that what we started with years ago and can provide a life time of study opportunities. You can now access it on windows, Mac, web and handheld devices .
You will be able to continue to buy books in packages on a perpetual license, maybe at a different cadence. There will also be subscriptions for those who do not want to invest thousands to build up their libraries. It sounds like there will continue to be a sensitivity in keeping offline access in the picture for those who need and want it.
To develop the platform further, subscriptions for value added, premium and power features will be added to the equation. There may be a way where when you stop your subscription that there will be some residual takeaway.
This sounds completely reasonable to me. In Phil’s earlier post about leveraging the current feature sets and adding more innovation, I became very excited. I don’t think selling a major set of new base packages every two years and other books along the way will fund what the platform needs going forward. The good news is that if a student is already happy with what is currently on offer with some additional base enhancements going forward, you don’t have to sign up to the premium features and you still have a very, very capable programme.
There has rightfully been concerns about the future viability of Logos. I would be more concerned if they were not trying to figure out how to put the platform back into an innovation mode. Innovation, let alone maintenance, requires investment. I am still stunned Logos does not charge for its apps or web service. They have kept it free while dramatically improving the speed and reliability of the software. If they can build a good subscription model, my guess is that the rising tide will lift all boats and even those who use the base software and packages will benefit. Win/win. I say bravo and I wish Logos well.
I also say bravo to Logos management for this type of user engagement and sensitivity to new users and old timers alike. This is not always common and it is how we future proof this cool tool.
0 -
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
Although online features in general give a twinkle in the eye, it's not the path I'll be investing in. I mostly upgrade because of an offline feature that impressed me.
It's a great concern to me, as more and more features get online and more time is invested to develop online features, regular offline features will start to get maintained on the back burner. Maybe there will also be less or no new offline features. Some customers need features they can work with living in places that would look like the end of the world to others. I just hope that the next Logos will be worth the effort and money.
There is still a lot that could be done in Logos concerning new features that don't need to be online. What those features are will determine the future of mostly offline customers.
0 -
Phil Gons (Logos) said:
There might be an option to purchase a feature set according to our traditional model, but we're not sure yet. If we offer such an option, it'll likely include only 1/4 to 1/3 of the all the new features that will be available in our subscriptions, due to the unsuitability of licensing AI and other cloud-backed features perpetually. We're not sure if we'll offer it standalone or as an optional or included component of a subscription, which improves your fallback position in the event that you stop subscribing. We appreciate the feedback we've received so far, and we'd invite others to share their feedback, too.
I would certainly like the option to purchase new features that aren't cloud-based or AI-based. For example, I put a request for reverse interlinears for Anglicised NIV2011 and Anglicized ESV on the feedback site. It would be infuriating for those wishes to be granted only to find that they are only available to subscribers.
0
