FEEDBACK WANTED: New Resource Toolbar on Desktop
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Ali Pope said:
We did remove HTML, L4, WIKI, RL from the new toolbar. We noticed that these were rarely used, so we removed them.
Removing features is not an upgrade or an improvement.
Is Logos really wanting feedback? Or will this be like the forced change for the web store where feedback was negative due to inaccurate search counts? Instead of listening to feedback to improve search, Logos just removed that feature users wanted and used.
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Ali Pope said:Graham Criddle said:
This seems quite a step backward as it was supported in the previous model for inline search
The intent/hope is that the Search panel would be used instead.
This is just extra work/steps. It's much easier to use the inline search within a resource than to open up a new search window and set it appropriately. I would greatly appreciate the old functionality.
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Ali Pope said:Graham Criddle said:
This seems quite a step backward as it was supported in the previous model for inline search
The intent/hope is that the Search panel would be used instead.
I think you mean "The intent is to force one to use the Search panel instead."
Although I use the inline search infrequently, I use it when I specifically don't want to mess with the open search panel(s) nor create (yet another) search panel. I would expect this change to be poorly received.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ali Pope said:
The tab key and CMD-G/CTRL-G shortcut will be a part of the polish work we do in the coming weeks.
That's great news!
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Ali Pope said:
We did remove HTML, L4, WIKI, RL from the new toolbar. We noticed that these were rarely used, so we removed them.
This appears to be a "didn't think it through" move - of source WIKI and RL are used rarely but do you really want to make it harder for the users creating the wiki for you to maintain the wiki? Do you really want to make it harder for teachers to build reading list? It is the wiki updaters, the teachers and professors, ... who introduce people to Logos and teach them to use it. And, yes, I would also suggest that HTML supports bloggers. Some "rarely used" features are critical as the basis for other uses and some are rarely used because of Logos lack of support for them (think case frames and semantic roles being removed from the context menu).
And yes, I do still hold a grudge over your removal of the sanctoral cycle support.
Ali Pope said:Show help card feature, along with the copy links, was intentionally left out since it gets such a low amount of usage.
This is partially because Logos did not revise the Help file to provide consistent information from the help file nor do a solid job of keeping the Help file up-to-date and accurate. I did not point others to the Help card because I could not consistently rely on it to give help. I do not think switching people over to the help center is a workable solution. I like the help center, especially for the definition of terms but I often find it unworkable for items where I really need it. Try using it to get information on "Factbook tags" ... because it doesn't recognize the relevant term as "Factbook tags" one gets so much "tags" and so much "Factbook" false positives as to make the Help Center unusable. I fear on providing Help, Logos is abandoning an excellent approach because they failed to re-edit the Help file in light of its new function; they are replacing it with a great idea that fails to work because it ignores the multi-word aspect of many interface element names.
Again, you should expect low usage - even lower if implemented correctly. It should be needed only 2-3 time per function per new user if it actually contains helpful information.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ali Pope said:
Ah, yes! This slipped my mind. Apologies! We did remove HTML, L4, WIKI, RL from the new toolbar. We noticed that these were rarely used, so we removed them.
Just to be clear, "rarely used" probably means "of great importance to some." This is not a step forward.
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Robert M. Warren said:
menu item, such as 'Resource', it could display all the allowable choices for the acrtve resource
Clarification: My suggestion is to repeat the choices in the Logos interface, not replace them.
Additional thought: The first choice in the 'Resource' mene could be a 'disabled' repetition of the resouce name to enable blind users to hear the selected resource's name. The 'disabled' text of the name would have no action associated with it, but the 'Speak item under poiunter' function would read it aloud.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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Ali Pope said:
The intent/hope is that the Search panel would be used instead.
The way it is currently configured, being able to move to the search panel from inline search, is the best of two worlds. I use the inline search with my Bible texts all the time... and in fact, more than the search panel. To be in the Bible text and interact with the text without having to open up another panel, is much faster. At least in my view, this is a HUGE step backwards, adding more friction to our workflows.
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Ali Pope said:
We did remove HTML, L4, WIKI, RL from the new toolbar. We noticed that these were rarely used, so we removed them.
Are you guys able to tell remotely how much I use L4 linking?
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MJ. Smith said:
This is partially because Logos did not revise the Help file to provide consistent information from the help file nor do a solid job of keeping the Help file up-to-date and accurate. I did not point others to the Help card because I could not consistently rely on it to give help. I do not think switching people over to the help center is a workable solution.
I would also suggest that L4 linking would be used more if it were bi-directional. There is currently no way for me to put a URI link in a Logos Note to another app. Some of us have been asking for some time for this to be considered, so for now, we have lived with partial implementation of system links.
Logos was ahead of its time providing the L4 link facility as it currently is. Now that we have other mainstream apps that can interact this way, it would be a shame to lose this functionality.
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A quick note on the missing L4 copy option:
- Within Logos (e.g. Notes) both formats (URL and L4) work in exactly the same way.
- In other apps, he advantage of the L4 option (compared to Copy as URL) is that you can click on the link and Logos opens straightaway without first opening a browser.
- The disadvantage is that most apps don’t recognise it as a link, and even if you tell the other app that it is a valid link, some apps block clicking on it because they think it’s a security risk. This is especially a problem on Mac.
The solution to this is to register the bit.ly domain with Windows and MacOS, so that the URL link will function in exactly the same way as the L4 link – that is, it will open Logos without first having to open a browser. We’re hoping to do this work relatively soon, which should mean that the inconvenience of opening the web browser when you click on a link doesn’t last for too long.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
The disadvantage is that most apps don’t recognise it as a link, and even if you tell the other app that it is a valid link, some apps block clicking on it because they think it’s a security risk. This is especially a problem on Mac.
Mark, I use a whack of apps this way... and I am using a Mac.
This list has a bunch of them...
https://hookproductivity.com/what-mac-apps-are-compatible-with-hook-app
Regardless, if you force me to use a browser, then I have to be an on active internet connection. Currently none of my other apps work this way and this would limit me when I travel and do research.
I guess my point is, we have had the L4 linking for many years, can we work together to find solutions? My feedback is that this is way too short of notice.
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Ali Pope said:Graham Criddle said:
This seems quite a step backward as it was supported in the previous model for inline search
The intent/hope is that the Search panel would be used instead.
As others have commented this is not ideal for those who much prefer to do as much searching as possible within the actual text itself.
I admit it is not something I tend to do but I have seen, particularly over the last few weeks, in a range of forum discussions that a number of people really value this capability.
One thing I would use Search Fields for was to filter the text to show where particular words appear in different highlights. With Search Field support this was fairly easy - without it I need to know to use syntax such as searchterm IN highlight:"Highlighter Pens/Green Highlighter"
This is, in my view, taking away useful functionality.
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I was experimenting with using morph searches in the new inline search and noted that the picker doesn't update the search string as you choose morph options
It does update the search string, and run the search correctly, when the Search button is clicked - but it should update the string as options are selected.
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Graham Criddle said:
As others have commented this is not ideal for those who much prefer to do as much searching as possible within the actual text itself.
And some of those users are Accordance users, who value working in the text as much as possible. (and I would argue to a degree BibleWorks) If we remove this, it makes the transition to Logos that much more foreign to them.
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Ali Pope said:Graham Criddle said:
2) I'm not getting any Visual Filters shown for the ESV - and I do have some Visual Filters that apply to this translation (is it possible that some background information is being built and this will appear in time?)
I'm unable to reproduce this. The VF documents are showing up as expected for me. I'll have our QA team take a look.
Thanks Ali
It is quite strange.
I can't reproduce it on my MacBook Pro but I do see it - but not consistently - on my Windows 11 system.
When I am seeing the problem on Windows 11, after I have turned the visual filters on they are activated (in that the results of them show in the text) but in the dropdown I am still told that I don't have any VFs defined for the book I am in. And then, after toggling them off / on a few times it all starts working properly.
One detail - when I am experiencing this problem on Windows, the Previous / Next buttons do not show on the toolbar. When everything is working properly, they do appear
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Apologies! I misspoke in my previous reply. The HTML, WIKI and RL were removed from the toolbar because of the low amount of usage. L4 was removed because of other plans we tentatively have for future development. Even though they are removed, any existing L4 links will still continue to work. That being said, we hear you all on the L4 links and are having discussions around this.
Ali Pope | Logos Desktop and Mobile Program Manager
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
The solution to this is to register the bit.ly domain with Windows and MacOS, so that the URL link will function in exactly the same way as the L4 link – that is, it will open Logos without first having to open a browser. We’re hoping to do this work relatively soon, which should mean that the inconvenience of opening the web browser when you click on a link doesn’t last for too long.
What Mark didn't mention is that this work is already done and shipped on macOS. If I turn off my internet connection, and paste a ref.ly link to say, Books search in the Search panel into the macOS Notes app, I can click on that link and it will open Logos at the correct location without opening a browser or requiring an internet connection.
Making this work on Windows requires a more sophisticated solution that we haven't implemented yet, but we are eager to complete.
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Ali Pope said:
That being said, we hear you all on the L4 links and are having discussions around this.
Just wanted to say that it's refreshing to hear developers asking for feedback and taking it into account. Thank you.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Are you guys able to tell remotely how much I use L4 linking?
If you mean "clicking on a logos4:XYZ URL in some other app", then no; that all happens offline on your computer.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I am using a Mac. ... if you force me to use a browser, then I have to be an on active internet connection
Based on what Nick wrote, you won't need to use a browser or be online:
Nick Mueller said:What Mark didn't mention is that this work is already done and shipped on macOS. If I turn off my internet connection, and paste a ref.ly link to say, Books search in the Search panel into the macOS Notes app, I can click on that link and it will open Logos at the correct location without opening a browser or requiring an internet connection.
Can you confirm that that works for you?
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Was equivalent resources simply removed or where the defined relationships folded into parallel resources?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ali Pope said:Frank Sauer said:
I had submitted the question of whether there would be an option to keep the traditional toolbar via Settings
We noted your suggestion back in the web app thread and appreciate your feedback. Unfortunately, we won't be able to implement this in the foreseeable future given the massive amount of work/time it would take to build and maintain.
Hopefully that changes - a question in relation to this answer arises... If I don't subscribe, will I be able to keep the traditional toolbar or is this change going to be forced on all users?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Dave Hooton said:
Seeing that functionality was not removed, I think this should be restored
In fact, if one is doing an object-oriented design, it should be easier to leave it in than to remove it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Donovan R. Palmer said:Ali Pope said:
We did remove HTML, L4, WIKI, RL from the new toolbar. We noticed that these were rarely used, so we removed them.
Are you guys able to tell remotely how much I use L4 linking?
I used L4 today as well as earlier this week. I am a bit shocked at this news. I use it in the program, not the desktop app. I surely hope you have NO plans to remove it from the program.
When I create a sermon or Bible study notes using personal book building, I use L4 to link to resources I have in logos for refererence if I need the reference in the future. I don't use L4 often. But I use it and it would be a HUGE step backwards if you got rid of this option.
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Mark said:
I don't use L4 often. But I use it and it would be a HUGE step backwards if you got rid of this option.
Especially when the replacement functionality is not ready.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Mark said:
When I create a sermon or Bible study notes using personal book building, I use L4 to link to resources I have in logos for refererence if I need the reference in the future. I don't use L4 often. But I use it and it would be a HUGE step backwards if you got rid of this option.
Use the "Copy link" button on the Share toolbar to copy a link that can be used in personal book building or other applications. It will link to exactly the same place as a L4 link.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Use the "Copy link" button on the Share toolbar to copy a link that can be used in personal book building or other applications. It will link to exactly the same place as a L4 link.
It is helpful to see that there will be some linking facility going forward and it will work offline.
However, at least from a MacOS worldview, the questions I am raising is in regard to parity with standard MacOS deep linking functionality. My hope was to see the capability of L4 links developed and enhanced, and I am not sure that Ref.ly is really that. (though I am grateful for any kind of retention of linking)
In order to not repeat a post, here's a link to the post that I just made some of these points: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/224536/1309975.aspx#1309975
Look, I am not an expert in this area. I only stepped up my input because this is a golden opportunity for Logos to review it's position on this. Thank you in advance for listening and for considering our points of view on this feature.
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So great! I love having it all on the bar. I was comfortable with it on the three dots at the end, but this is a great enhancement of something I did not know would help. Way to go!
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Jonathan Huber said:
Just wanted to say that it's refreshing to hear developers asking for feedback and taking it into account. Thank you.
Good on ya for asking; please act on what you hear.
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Please add shortcuts. As a non-English speaking user, the translation panel is my daily (!) companion and it would be nice to be able to open and close it as quickly as possible.
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Frank Sauer said:
If I don't subscribe, will I be able to keep the traditional toolbar or is this change going to be forced on all users?
Yes, the traditional toolbar will be available for non-subscribers on the desktop app.
Ali Pope | Logos Desktop and Mobile Program Manager
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Use the "Copy link" button on the Share toolbar to copy a link that can be used in personal book building or other applications. It will link to exactly the same place as a L4 link.
I just opened a book on the web app. Under Share, there are only two options (copy and create slides). The copy link shows for Bibles, but not for resources. Are you going to make this available for resources as well?
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MJ. Smith said:
Was equivalent resources simply removed or where the defined relationships folded into parallel resources?
Yes, we've removed equivalent resources as Mark alluded to in an older forum post.
Ali Pope | Logos Desktop and Mobile Program Manager
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Favorites added on Mobile aren't showing up on Desktop beta (mac version). Is that expected or a bug? Mobile favorites set on one mobile device (iPhone) are showing on another mobile device (iPad).
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Mobile usually gets updated after the Beta is over and a stable version is released, so I would expect to see mobile to lag behind a little bit.
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Ali, I generally like the new look and feel. The categories seem intuitive and it feels "right" in a general sense. I would make a couple of suggestions:
- Others have suggested a collapsible toolbar. I agree. The toolbar is extra screen space taken that may not always be useful. In addition, some of the options are not as commonly used while others might be more beneficial. Could we make the toolbar more customizable so power users can make this toolbar match their needs, while giving the most commonly-used options as default for those users who are less experienced with Logos?
- I would like to see integrations with other Logos tools via the toolbar. Some of these, such as notes and canvas, are already present. Why not have a "documents" tab that functions for any document type? Or a "guides" tab that can be used to start a workflow or open a guide?
Overall, I think this is a great start and look forward to using the toolbar. Keep up the good work, Faithlife!
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For those who want to hide the resource toolbar - vote Resource View: Add setting to deactivate auto hide main navigation bar | Logos
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It reminds me a little bit of the Ribbon toolbar in Microsoft Office. And that is a very good design. Everything you need to access is there (In Office apps), but you can also minimize or hide it to reclaim screen space.
Ali Pope said:This feature requires a license.
Am I understanding this correctly? Changes to the program interface for some users, but not others? Or is this limited access only for the beta testing period?
If the former, I think this is a VERY BAD idea!
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John said:
Am I understanding this correctly? Changes to the program interface for some users, but not others? Or is this limited access only for the beta testing period?
If the former, I think this is a VERY BAD idea!
I was thinking about this the other day. If the community is discussing a workflow or trying to help someone learn how to do something, it will be interesting to see how much confusion there is if there are variations of the basic UI. I get it if a whole tool, resource or database is not present due to a subscription or resource package, but the trying to remember how to do something in two variations of the UI might get interesting over time. Toolbars are a very fundamental reference point in software interaction.
For example, take the inline search discussion. If you have two different approaches to this feature, one in the new UI and another in the old, I can imagine the confusion it will create. Same with links. That is of course unless you keep functional parity between the old UI and the new, and the main benefit of the new UI is the way the user interacts with the software. If this is all that is left, is the differentiation better than the benefit of simplicity in a common UI. The complexity of Logos is something which new users often struggle with when they first come to the programme. Or does the onboarding of new users assumes they will subscribe and therefore not use the free base version of the software with the old UI? What happens when they unsubscribe, but keep their forever access to books and therefore transition to the old UI?
I am sure this has been thought through, but would suggest that however Logos manages this fork in the UI, communication will need to be comprehensive and clear. Common terminology, help documentation and training resources will need to be accurately defined, segmented and kept up to date.
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Jonathan Huber said:
Favorites added on Mobile aren't showing up on Desktop beta (mac version). Is that expected or a bug? Mobile favorites set on one mobile device (iPhone) are showing on another mobile device (iPad).
I can't edit this post, but ignore it. Figured it out, my bad. Favorites in the resource toolbar were only shown if they applied to that resource, of course. Ive added favorites to the sidebar and that shows everything. That makes sense now.
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For what it's worth, clicking on the categories to the right of the Reference Box (Home, for instance) collapses the bar beneath it.
Now you see it . . .
Now you don't.
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John said:
Changes to the program interface for some users, but not others? Or is this limited access only for the beta testing period?
As of right now, subscribers will see the new Dynamic Toolbar and non-subscribers will see the traditional toolbar. We may make changes to this in the future, but we don’t have concrete information yet.
Ali Pope | Logos Desktop and Mobile Program Manager
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Ali Pope said:
The new resource toolbar has made it to the desktop app and is now available for beta testing in version 36 Beta 3!
Generally, ( like the new toolbar. Realizing that it is still a work in progress, I am trying to be patient. However, it has caused a major obstacle to my normal workflow, I have been accustomed to hitting the Tab key and typing number to navigate to a different verse in a Bible text. However, with the new toolbar, this operation has become hit-or-miss. Most often, nothing happens. Sometimes a box appears around the Home button. Then, shift-tab will produce the desired result. Other times…
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Jack Caviness said:
I have been accustomed to hitting the Tab key
We have a case created to add this functionality back into the new toolbar. Thank you!
Ali Pope | Logos Desktop and Mobile Program Manager
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Ali Pope said:
As of right now, subscribers will see the new Dynamic Toolbar and non-subscribers will see the traditional toolbar. We may make changes to this in the future, but we don’t have concrete information yet.
And subscribers will have the option to choose to continue using the old one if they prefer?
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