Official: Here's what's included/excluded from the Legacy Fallback License

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Comments

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 36,148

    Reposting from first page so more people can see.  This is also why there is still value inning the Logos 10 Full Feature Set.

    Yes, but the benefits are not restricted to owners of the L10 Full Feature set.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • WH Kim
    WH Kim Member Posts: 3 ✭✭

    I think this may be a stupid question, but will still ask. [:)]

    I'm currently a Pro subscriber. If I keep the subscription for two years, I'll get the LFL. Logos Pro includes the Logos Research Commentaries. Would this series be included in my LFL?

  • Yasmin Stephen
    Yasmin Stephen Member Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭

    WH Kim said:

    I think this may be a stupid question, but will still ask. Smile

    I'm currently a Pro subscriber. If I keep the subscription for two years, I'll get the LFL. Logos Pro includes the Logos Research Commentaries. Would this series be included in my LFL?

    Books which are part of the subscription are temporary licenses; you lose access to them when you unsubscribe. The fallback license is for features only; books are not included.

  • Anderson Abreu
    Anderson Abreu Member Posts: 564 ✭✭✭

    We do not have plans to make LFL a purchaseable product.

    Mark, although it's not in the plans now, at least consider selling the non-cloud features after a period in which the subscription has already benefited subscribers with new features, but now they are “old” features. The following example makes the idea more understandable:

    In 2026, when everyone who has subscribed receives the eligible LFL features, there could be a “feature pack” from the year 2025 for purchase by those who haven't subscribed at a prorated value that more or less corresponds to a subscription to those non-cloud features. These non-cloud features are no longer new and have already been paid for with the subscription.

    This would keep subscribers like me who like new features fresh, as well as allowing the less enthusiastic basic user (there are many) to add improvements to the software engine and features from time to time. There could be a lag of a year or two for these improvements to be purchased by non-subscribers.

    ____________

    "... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)

  • Anderson Abreu
    Anderson Abreu Member Posts: 564 ✭✭✭

    WH Kim said:

    I'm currently a Pro subscriber. If I keep the subscription for two years, I'll get the LFL. Logos Pro includes the Logos Research Commentaries. Would this series be included in my LFL?

    This was a question I had because of the following. In addition to the features, the Full Feature Set has some books/resources such as interlinears and dictionaries etc. Since it's a feature set and the subscriptions are also that, I wondered if I would receive some of these resources in LFL. But the answer I received by e-mail was no. This has also been answered by them on the forum. We won't be receiving any books or interlinears on LFL.

    ____________

    "... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)

  • Anderson Abreu
    Anderson Abreu Member Posts: 564 ✭✭✭

    I keep wondering how Logos will manage and differentiate all the various levels of functionality that users have with the new subscription model.

    I see that there is now an attempt to establish a common baseline for everyone with the Full Feature Set of Logos 10. But we know that not everyone will buy it. And many users in the future will come with zero features, paying the full subscription price. With the previous purchasing and dynamic pricing model, it was "easy" to calculate the differences and charge a fair price for each user. But how will this be handled with the subscription model?

    Every two years, new features will be added to the subscriptions so that subscribers receive all the features Logos has accumulated over the last 30 years and going forward. Today, the Max subscription includes the features of FFS-Logos 10 + LFL (v.1). In two years, the Max subscription will include the features of FFS-Logos 10 + LFL (v.1) + LFL (v.2), and so on.

    Imagine two years from now (2026), two users. Both have FFS-Logos10. But one did not subscribe and did not receive LFL-1 (2025-2026); the other subscribed for two years and received LFL-1 (2025-2026). Will both pay the same Max subscription price in 2027-2028?

    Multiply these differences over the next 30 years of Logos. How will these differences in the features of different user accounts be differentiated and compensated for in subscription prices?

    This seems like a huge complication to me! There are two possibilities: either subscriptions will become increasingly expensive for new and old users who didn’t receive successive LFLs, making subscriptions unviable over the years; or continuous subscribers will end up paying again for what they already received.

    I am just a mere Logos user, and there are certainly smarter minds than mine working at Faithlife, but I, a mere mortal, can only conceive of two possibilities: The first is that the subscription will have a dynamic pricing component based on the features inherited from Logos 1 to Logos 10 and the successive LFLs. The second is that an occasional cumulative package of old (non-cloud) features will be sold so that those who wish to subscribe will have a common initial baseline for subscription levels. Like an entry fee!

    ____________

    "... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,946

    I've not been paying attention but I thought the LFL was a one time deal.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Nathan Parker
    Nathan Parker Member Posts: 814 ✭✭✭

    Quick Question: Is there a deadline that L10 users need to sign up for the new subscriptions to lock in a LFL? Thanks!

    Dr. Nathan Parker

  • Mark Barnes (Logos)
    Mark Barnes (Logos) Administrator, Logos Employee Posts: 2,004

    Quick Question: Is there a deadline that L10 users need to sign up for the new subscriptions to lock in a LFL? Thanks!

    Not yet. We might impose one in the future, but we'll give plenty of notice if we do.

  • Nathan Parker
    Nathan Parker Member Posts: 814 ✭✭✭

    Quick Question: Is there a deadline that L10 users need to sign up for the new subscriptions to lock in a LFL? Thanks!

    Not yet. We might impose one in the future, but we'll give plenty of notice if we do.

    Perfect. Thanks!

    Dr. Nathan Parker

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 36,148

    Every two years, new features will be added to the subscriptions so that subscribers receive all the features Logos has accumulated over the last 30 years and going forward. Today, the Max subscription includes the features of FFS-Logos 10 + LFL (v.1). In two years, the Max subscription will include the features of FFS-Logos 10 + LFL (v.1) + LFL (v.2), and so on.

    Imagine two years from now (2026), two users. Both have FFS-Logos10. But one did not subscribe and did not receive LFL-1 (2025-2026); the other subscribed for two years and received LFL-1 (2025-2026). Will both pay the same Max subscription price in 2027-2028?

    Multiply these differences over the next 30 years of Logos. How will these differences in the features of different user accounts be differentiated and compensated for in subscription prices?

    1. LFL is available to L10 owners, not just FFS owners (as per Mark's original post), but I understand that your example is for the Max level.
    2. LFL will not be available forever, let alone 30 years! (see Mark's comment after your query)
    3. Both will pay the same subscription if the discount is still applicable to the one joining later,
      1. new users who join will pay the applicable price, higher than the discounted one (the difference may disappear over time).
    4. Both will have the same Fallback features in 2028 (if the other joined in 2026).
      1. new users will have use of the same features as those who joined earlier.
    5. The subscription prices will be affected by the take up of the subscription and it will affect all users.
    6. New users who opt out will fallback to a Free version of Logos, but who is to say that the free version will stay at the 2024 level...
    7. At some point the features will have been paid for, say after 2 years....(now go back to points 5 and 6).

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • Jim Dean
    Jim Dean Member Posts: 315 ✭✭✭

    As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.

    If you already own any of these features, their presence on this list does NOT mean they will be taken away from you. It just means that people without these features will likely not have them granted to them via LFL.

    Mark ... 

    Thank you.

    I was one of the moderately vocal "concerned citizens" when subscriptions were first announced ... I've been with y'all 30+ years and $32k+ with 16k+ books later, I was concerned about perpetual features, and a bit about AI.

    I just want to let you know that now all the decisions have been made and info is out there with pricing, I am *VERY SATISFIED* with the solution.  I'm upgrading my Max from 1 year to 2 as soon as the sales dept gets that order code sorted out.

    THANK YOU for dealing with the worried grumblers like me.  You dun gud!

    =============
    Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
    Jim Dean

  • Doug Yates
    Doug Yates Member Posts: 37

    I agree!

    Jim Dean said:

    As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.

    If you already own any of these features, their presence on this list does NOT mean they will be taken away from you. It just means that people without these features will likely not have them granted to them via LFL.

    Mark ... 

    Thank you.

    I was one of the moderately vocal "concerned citizens" when subscriptions were first announced ... I've been with y'all 30+ years and $32k+ with 16k+ books later, I was concerned about perpetual features, and a bit about AI.

    I just want to let you know that now all the decisions have been made and info is out there with pricing, I am *VERY SATISFIED* with the solution.  I'm upgrading my Max from 1 year to 2 as soon as the sales dept gets that order code sorted out.

    THANK YOU for dealing with the worried grumblers like me.  You dun gud!

  • Peter_G
    Peter_G Member Posts: 102 ✭✭

    On Sept.11, 2024, Mark Barnes wrote:

    After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.

    As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.

    Mark went on to write:

    The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026, and many more features will be added between now and then. This list only deals with current features (including early access features). If possible, we'll try to identify whether future features will likely be eligible for the LFL when they are released.

    In my case, I became an "Early Access" subscriber on April 14, 2024. So two years would take me to April 13, 2026.

    But then Mark says that "The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026." In my case, 6 months later.

    So which is it? After two years of continual subscription, or after two years from October 2024?

  • Steven MacDonald
    Steven MacDonald Member Posts: 285 ✭✭✭

    Peter_G said:

    On Sept.11, 2024, Mark Barnes wrote:

    After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.

    As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.

    Mark went on to write:

    The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026, and many more features will be added between now and then. This list only deals with current features (including early access features). If possible, we'll try to identify whether future features will likely be eligible for the LFL when they are released.

    In my case, I became an "Early Access" subscriber on April 14, 2024. So two years would take me to April 13, 2026.

    But then Mark says that "The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026." In my case, 6 months later.

    So which is it? After two years of continual subscription, or after two years from October 2024?

    Here is Mark's answer from a former post.  I too subscribed early.  So basically you will "qualify" for the LFL after your two years of subscription but won't get it until it is actually released.  Hope this helps.

  • Jim Dean
    Jim Dean Member Posts: 315 ✭✭✭

    Peter G

    I’ve asked about this too. 
    my understanding is that since the subscriptions weren’t “official” nor at their final price levels and categories until Aug-Oct-ish, Octover is being used for that fallback determination date - keep in mind that what one falls back TO is based on what level of subscription one has maintained - and there were no “levels” in early access initially. 

    The ADVANTAGE of having maintained a continuous subscription from the early days is that any PURCHASES during that time “count towards” the initial 5% off certificate they will be first issuing next Feb-Mar(?). 

    =============
    Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
    Jim Dean

  • Peter_G
    Peter_G Member Posts: 102 ✭✭

    Jim Dean said:

    my understanding is that since the subscriptions weren’t “official” nor at their final price levels and categories until Aug-Oct-ish, October is being used for that fallback determination date - keep in mind that what one falls back TO is based on what level of subscription one has maintained - and there were no “levels” in early access initially.

    Thanks for sharing that, Jim. It sounds like an "after the event" explanation. I don't recall any caveats or limitations being announced with regard to early-adopter subscriptions. Given that nice words were spoken about those who paid for Early Access, I would expect that Logos would reward our commitment to the platform and to the subscription model by bringing forward the two-year deadline. Rather than mealy-mouthed "explanations" that, after all, those Early Access subscriptions "weren't official."

    (BTW, I was an Early Access subscriber to Pro, and have continued with an unbroken Pro subscription since mid April.)

    Any comment from Mark Barnes, or other officials?

  • Peter_G
    Peter_G Member Posts: 102 ✭✭

    Update:


    I emailed Logos Customer Support with the following questions. Their reply follows below.

    I asked:

    1. My subscription, starting on 14 April 2024, continues unbroken to this day.
    2. What happens, if, on 15 April 2026, I cancel my subscription? (That would be over two years continuous subscription, as required.)
    3. Would my installation revert to a bare-metal Logos install on that day?
      1. If so, what would happen in October 2026 when FallBack Licenses are issued? Would my eligible features then be restored?
      2. What will happen to my installation during the 6 months (April-October 2026) in that situation?

    Logos Customer Support replied:

    1 - The software would revert back to what has been paid for on the account. 

     2- A fallback license would be applied to the account with the qualifying features at that time. We do not have a list of features that will be available at that time. 

     3 - Same answer to #1. 

     

    So now we know?? WHEN WOULD THE FALLBACK LICENSE be applied? April or October? What happens between times?

  • Fabian
    Fabian Member Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭

    I asked in another thread, and there they couldn't give an answer as they even don't know. 

    My question was: Does the LFL only works once or every 2 years. And what's with new users?

    Thanks for your competent replay.

    Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης· 

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 36,148

    Peter_G said:

    I asked:

    1. My subscription, starting on 14 April 2024, continues unbroken to this day.
    2. What happens, if, on 15 April 2026, I cancel my subscription? (That would be over two years continuous subscription, as required.)
    3. Would my installation revert to a bare-metal Logos install on that day?
      1. If so, what would happen in October 2026 when FallBack Licenses are issued? Would my eligible features then be restored?
      2. What will happen to my installation during the 6 months (April-October 2026) in that situation?

    The Legacy Fallback License will become available in the fall of 2026 and will include features from your subscription tier that were available at that time but that don't rely on the cloud or AI.

    1. You are eligible in April 2026 but won't receive the benefits until October 2026. But, it appears that you will only receive the features available to you in April 2026 (when you cancelled).

    2. When you cancel you retain features that you own, that made you eligible for Early Access, plus books that you own. So you could fall into a feature void between those dates, and I doubt that FL has thought about that scenario as cancelling in October would be easier to handle.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13