Why I can no longer recommend Logos Bible Software.
Please select 1-3 relevant tags below once you're finished.
It was about 1991 when I bought my first Logos Bible Software. I had the old CDWORD bible program, which ran from a CD-ROM, which I purchased from Dallas Theological Seminary because it had helpful Greek tools. Logos took over the CDWORD system and offered a reasonable upgrade to the early Logos.
From that time until now, I have been a loyal Logos customer. I have recommended Logos to at least 20 other pastors each year of those decades, a number of whom became Logos customers. I still use Logos, but I have no intention of purchasing any subscription ever. Nor would I recommend Logos to others, as I once did habitually. I do still buy books, but I use them with the Logos program I now have.
The program has become blotted and slower than it used to be. It is more difficult to perform searches of books and resources. Some of the things Logos is now emphasizing hold no interest to me. Those who do not get in line with the subscription program are almost regarded of no value to the company. At least that is the way it appears to me.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
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I have actually increased the number of recommendations to Logos because the subscription allows them to try it out for a year or two at a reasonable cost. I have also taken a liking to the new ownership for understanding the need to work on the basic infrastructure of parts of the application to create a more common experience across platforms and support simpler interfaces and more generic implementation for less expansive maintenance. Unfortunately, my approval of the technical side of the application is offset by their blindness to the 3/4th of Christianity who study multiple passages simultaneously, use lectionaries, standardized lesson plans, have a broader toolset than grammatico-historical criticism, believe in constantly re-examining/testing their faith and adjusting their beliefs as necessary, prefer as little interpretation as possible in the tagging …
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I certainly don't recommend it. Buy a king's ransom of books, that need a substantial subscription for 'the power of Logos' … until … well 'forever'. Don't think so.
If someone wants to just subscribe to features, and then look at them each day, well ok. But it's not just 'features' that's in the financial equation. Most people buy books. And those will need …. features forever.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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So @Mike Childs, if you're not recommending Logos for original language study, what Bible software are you recommending?
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I am still not sold on the "reasonable cost" - I guess to test drive it for a couple months or two (or if needed for a semester, with no desire to do anything but rent) - otherwise, new users go back to the free engine, free books that may be included with it and whatever books they purchase, should they decide to purchase beyond the free and included subscription books…. When asked, I make that point very clear - coming in as a new user, there is nothing beyond the features that are available in the Free Engine if you decide to stop subscribing…. (I can't personally recommend something that I would avoid if it were my decision as a new user)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I'm curious what you would recommend if you didn't recommend Logos.
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It is okay that you no longer feel that you can recommend Logos to your friends. I personally like the new features and see many applications for them. They help now in the preparation of Bible Study Classes to teach.
Philippians 2:3Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
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It would depend on the person's goal(s) - for the typical layperson looking to just study and have a few additions to their study - I can see some of the "free" options or lower cost, no subscription commitment as enough for the need(s) - I have been checking out Olive Tree recently and think it could help a lot of people.
The free Logos engine can still be beneficial to many as well. As could the purchase of a license from a user willing to give up their "owned" licenses.
I tried Accordance a little - I think it has benefit for some OL aspects based on comments from users in the Forums (but I wouldn't recommend it, as I am not familiar enough with it to be fair on a recommendation one way or another.
If someone is willing to "subscribe" as is to Logos with no realized equity of ownership outside what is available in Free Engine - I will give my opinion on it, as well as my opinion of the company through the years - as well as letting them know that some of the leadership has no problem ignoring customers, unlike the way it used to be…
Though I won't recommend Logos - I would not tell someone who is looking for the type of plan they are now offering to avoid it - though it would include the "red flags" I believe have been becoming more evident - much the way you and others have done the same with Accordance.
For the record, I still have the two year LFL option sitting in my cart - and though I have made it clear what would push me to give it a chance - this long term customer isn't worth an email exchange for answers to a few questions that I am told only come from the one person…. We're getting closer to a year since my first request… Who knows….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Also think that Sword Searcher has a very good offering for a good price that would meet the needs of many as well
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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If free software meets the needs of a user, then there's certainly no reason to pay for anything. But that certainly wouldn't apply to pastors, seminary students working with original languages, or anyone working in the area of Biblical research. For the rest, Accordance may work now, but as a new user, I'd probably by an old copy of BibleWorks from someone before buying a new library in Accordance. Your investment will probably be safer.
If you're the sort of person who plans on spending thousands of dollars for commentaries, monographs, and other resources over the course of your lifetime, Logos is the only Bible software application that makes any sense at all.0 -
As long as you understand that you are spending thousands for all those resources and the moment you stop subscribing you are stuck with the Free Engine features for all that investment…. (It is that point that is the biggest reason I will not push the product any longer - I cannot in good conscience get someone caught up in the trap….) Now if they add an LFL type ownership model at some point in the future - I may be able to go back to the way it was in promoting Logos…
I just can't stand to see someone pay a premium for resources, as others have been pointing out (which was always looked past because of the cost to tag the resources), but if someone pays the extra for the tagging and then has a change in budget that prevents them from subscribing…. It can be a bad investment for them and I want nothing to do with that…
Taking away ownership of Features was a decision that the company made, but will have to deal with (and should have known the backlash would come, if not, poor planning) the potential consequences….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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It’s all about perspective. As long as they stay around in business I’m good with the subscription model. Think BlockBuster when they turned down a partnership with Netflix. Who evolved and is still around? You guessed it correctly, Netflix!
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I believe that 'a' subscription model is an asset… I guess I just line up more with the post from Bob that I shared a while back with the chocolate and vanilla scenario…. Why settle for one, when you can offer both and have more customers??? But, again time will tell…
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Perspective, yes. Those that got the good deal (L10'ers) mooching off those that won't.
I'll be a moocher, of course. For the duration.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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When the topic of Original Languages comes up, it raises many questions in my mind. Logos is definitely the leader when it comes to quality and quantity of resources. But why are people now recommending it as the best software for original languages?
This was never the case until the demise of Bibleworks and now Accordance. Accordance is still in business and still selling books. But it appears that on the forums, users have been discovering lots of mistakes in OL databases. No reasonable person would expect those problems to get "fixed" anytime soon after seeing similar promises about other issues linger for months and even years.
But why were both of these programs considered superior to Logos just a few short years ago?
What can AI possibly add to what those programs did (and still do for some people)?
Which leads me to another question … What new AI features is Logos going to come up with to fulfill their vague promises about original language study on the MAX plan?
Seems to me what made BW and ACC good in the past was simply integration of the OL texts, the favorite OL resources, and a multilingual search capability that the majority of users considered good enough. Part of what made those programs more desirable to the majority was not only the ease at finding the information they wanted, but the precision. The search results were exact, not fuzzy.
What could AI possibly add to this? Everything about AI is fuzzy and uncertain. All of its conclusions must be verified before they can be relied upon. In my thinking, the greatest gains Logos could make with MAX would be to construct complex searches easier. But this would be better done with conventional programming. AI is not well suited for this task.
It is obvious that "free" is the new entry level for Bible software. I think Logos gives a decent experience for a FREE tryout … last time I checked. Someone mentioned Olive Tree … which also has free apps for multiple platforms. Limited in resources compared to Logos … but a huge amount of free material. I heard a professor of Greek speaking highly of the Olive Tree mobile app recently. Was kinda surprising, he had formerly promoted Accordance. He specifically said he does not like Logos interface. Not sure if that was desktop or mobile. Last time I checked though, I thought OL in Olive Tree was limited to strongs number searches. Maybe that has changed?
What this shows me is that the future requires a good mobile app to complement a good desktop program. For some users the mobile app may even be all they ever want to use. I'm too old school to imagine that, although the mobile app is nice to have.
I personally think the Logos iOS app is really good. But they did not quite finish it before the end of L10. But still way ahead of the competition. Most of the free competition do not do OL well, and also do not have good mobile apps that synchronize. Even Accordance cannot claim the latter. But Olive tree can.
In response to the OP, I still recommend Logos as a free option to "try out", but always with a disclaimer. I always explain that "buying into" Logos long term now means perpetual payments.
Logos could have charged a subscription just for AI and "features" which required online services. I would like the company a lot more if they had done it that way.
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@John (like DMBs, there's more than one John), your post was quite good. And also Mark's question as to, absent Logos, who (presuming the demise of Accordance)?
The only point I'd make (no offense) is that the Bible apps are stuck in the land of late 1800s Biblical analysis, with the addition of better mathematics and some theoretical techniques. They've barely gotten past counts of this and that, submitted to various statistical metrics.
'AI', for at least 25 years (that I've been involved) has gone well past the count approaches, looking for influences, patterns, dependencies, and so forth. They're excellent for gradient visualizations, But you're right, they don't deliver hard stats. And they need supervision. But, they deliver clues as to where to look (referring to OL, not books). But absent some sort of AI>OL, the Bible apps just perpetuate a century of counting this and counting that.
So, I'd be happy to just see where the Logos crew ends up on AI/Bible. Will it be faster same-old-same-old. Or will they ….
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The only point I'd make (no offense) is that the Bible apps are stuck in the land of late 1800s Biblical analysis, with the addition of better mathematics and some theoretical techniques. They've barely gotten past counts of this and that, submitted to various statistical metrics.
I agree whole heartedly and keep foolish hoping management and designers will "see the light"
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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(presuming the demise of Accordance)?
I do hope they stay afloat. I have nothing to gain if they went under … or Logos were to purchase them. I have almost everything duplicated in Logos.
Apparently integrating synchronization was a task too hard for whoever is doing the development now. But I personally never cared that much about synchronization. It did make me mad after they messed up version v13, I wanted to downgrade back to v12 which had been stable and reliable. But they had redone things on their server and made it impossible to install older versions. That was my first big clue there was a lack of intelligence somewhere.
The desktop program (v14) is supposed to be stable now. Mine crashes every time I open it, but I think that could be solved if I really spent some time with it.
But … similar issues with original languages? Its past reputation for strength in that area is the only thing it still has going for it. They need to get on top of this quickly and prove they are still capable.
This is one area where I have more confidence in Logos. They do make mistakes at times, but they usually get fixed …
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Accordance no longer has any full-time programmers and they laid off almost all their content developers years ago. They released version 14 long before it was ready, to the consternation of everyone involved except the owner. It's still not "ready." They've recently advertised for a web developer, which tells me that's the direction they're headed. So don't be looking for any new search features from them any time soon.
The Accordance desktop version still crashes, they let go of their only Android developer years ago, and their iOS and iPadOS apps are barely in maintenance mode. Still, I imagine they can make enough through sales to keep going for quite a while. There are almost no updates coming out for any resources, which is the sign of a very unhealthy company. Updating resources becomes a very low priority when you're struggling financially since it doesn't bring in any short-term revenue.
Accordance would LOVE to move to a subscription model. They've wanted to do it for years but they don't have the ability to do it.
Finally, there is absolutely no incentive for Logos to buy Accordance (I wish this wasn't true!). The Accordance code base is ancient and Logos doesn't need Accordance's customers (they're all moving to Logos anyway).
All of this makes me very sad, because healthy competition is good for any industry.3 -
So far Accordance has not crashed on my M2 MacBook Pro and it seem to run well on Sequoia 15.3 Beta.
However, having said that I have no idea about how it runs on Windows and on Macbook's with intel processors.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I've had it crash a few times on my M2 MacBook Air.
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I’m glad I didn’t invest that much in Accordance! The graphics and their Paper/sermon builder were the only things that I really liked, since I present from my screen. Other than that, I will not miss Accordance if it ever goes out of business! The founders milked their cow and then sold the leftovers to the new guy who has no idea what he’s doing!
Anyway, hopefully Logos can stay afloat for more decades to come 👍😁👌
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This is interesting as I do not think there is that much of a difference in performance between the M2 Macbook Air and the M2 MacBook Pro. I am usually do the same type of task over and over in both A and L so I am not doing anything to crazy that push these programs to their limits.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Well, then I glad to hear that Logos meets you needs.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I'd hate for Accordance to go bellyup. I like all my Accordance books. I think picky customers are not so impacted by Accordance's dalliance with feet-in-the-air. I love the graphics and timeline features (and wish Logos would start over on theirs). I have quite a few books that Logos has no equivalent. So, even daily, it continues to be a happy experience.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The Accordance Atlas was amazing in the 1990s, and there's still nothing like it.
Also, I didn't realize the New Jerusalem Bible had notes.1 -
I corrected my comment! NJB does have notes … Logos presents them by chapter (uselessly). I thought Accordance went by verse (Genesis) but actually samples.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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First I agree! I really like having options and I would very much dislike it if there were some sort of monopoly over the commerical Bible Software market and if there were only one viable program.
Second, I love the graphics, timeline features, and having photo facsimile of ancient manuscripts in Accordance (like the Leningrad Codex). Now, of course Logos/faithlife could also acquire the same or similar reasources if they wanted to, but so far they have not for whatever reasons.
Thrid, like you I also have a number of books/resources in Accordance that Logos currently does not have. Again if the logos team wanted to they could also acquire the same reasources.
Fourth, I am happy to have both Accordance and Logos.
Fifth, I think there are still alot of people out there that have no idea what has been said or happening on either the accordance forums/logos forums but are still happily using Accordance and Logos. The vast majority of users are probably not and have never been on the either of the forums as in general it seems to me that the same group of regural posters regurally post.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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@BKMitchell Logos does the manuscript thing, by pointing to the web. And 'technically' that's better than user-owned imagery. The web continually expands the mss inventory, metadata, and quality. Available for searches.
That said, I do love to pull up my Accordance mss imagery and zoom in. There's something to the disciplined stylus-strokes and ink, that go beyond the coldness of lemmas, morphs, and syntax.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Best of all were the tagged mss images in BibleWorks!
Sadly, Michael Bushell refused to sell them to anyone, even though they were developed through contributions from the BibleWorks community.1 -
Yep, that was pretty amazing. I felt totally guilty using the versified mss's! Real hebrew-ists don't. Early on, with my neural-net analytics, I fed them only strict hebrew/aramaic. None of this mamby-pamby chapters, verses and 'vowels'/accents etc. Forced the net to figure it out.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I like being to pull up the images on my phone or laptop without having to be connected to the web. And, the sure web continually expands but at the same time things can also be taken off the net and not everyone in the world has great access to the internet or wifi all the time.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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One observation about numerous search options in Logos & Verbum is the absence/lack of searching for Hebrew vowel point patterns: find similar sounding words with different consonant letter(s), especially consonants that sound similar: e.g. "h"
Keep Smiling 😍
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Durning the Libronix (before Logos 4) Logos was able to regular expression searches, vowel point, and accent searches without the need for a tagged text. However, somehow when Logos changed over to a new software engine a lot of those features were lost.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I don't think a search for any of those things would require a grammatically tagged text, would they?
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You are correct they don't require tagging, all they require is the ability to do regular expression searches which Logos 3 used to have! Today Logos does allow for searching on words with specific accents or vowels, but not on vowels with wildcards. And, Logos new cantillation searches actually preform searches on cantillations tags not on the accents themselves as one would be able to do with regular expression searches.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I'm hoping that Logos can use AI to power searches for any part of the Hebrew or Greek text.
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They were simply an implementation of regular expressions i.e. an arcane search. For many years, even though they were not supported they would still work in Logos
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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If anyone is interested I have created a new feature request for Regular expressions:
https://community.logos.com/discussion/244778/request-for-regex-regular-expression-searches#latest
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Oh yeah…. One of those missing features from Libronix days that never was implemented again…. If they add it back - probably be a Max only feature LOL
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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That is sadly most likely what will happen!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I was asked, "If I no longer recommend Logos, what Bible software do I recommend?" I feel no obligation to recommend a particular Bible software. I would recommend any Bible software that includes scholarly study aids such a good commentaries (such as NIC Old Testament and New Testament, Tyndale Commentaries, and many other solid books for study. And with the standard languare tools. With over 9,000 books in my Logos Library, I intend to use it and buy books from time to time. I primarily recommend NEVER BUY A SUBSCRIPTION.
But I am no longer an evangelist for Logos. The company has changed. I do not want to influence anyone to subscribe. Nor does Logos any more seem interested in providing the best resources. Just one person's opinion. I respect those who disagree. They are certainly entitled to their opinion.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley3 -
Mike Childs thanks for sharing your opinions and the explanation.
I am also a non subscriber, and I prefer the way Logos did things before. Those who wanted to subscribe were free to do so, and those who did not want to subscribe were sill able to purchase one of the various feature upgrades.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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What you've described leaves only Logos and Accordance. And you might have noticed all the new Logos users on these forums moving from Accordance. There's a reason for that.
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As discussed earlier (this phrase covers 'you already said that!'), their previous subscriptions with a choice of buy, weren't as profitable (if that). And the PE, at some juncture, needs to sell an attractively profitable company. Folks say, 'subscriptions are needed to survive' … as if the earlier money to buy all the later-unloaded companies came out of nowhere.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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So, do you think the PE will sell Logos/Faithlife sometime in the future?
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I trust our resident financial Logosian … ICo. They didn't buy it to keep it.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I still see e-sword as the premier free Bible Software in the planet. I recommend it to people who can’t afford premium Bible software or subscriptions. Olive Tree is the second I recommend after e-sword, but Logos will always be number one. Accordance not so much but for obvious reasons. I couldn’t even download a free book to the desktop app the other day so I use it every now and then when I need separate outlines for the POSB.
DAL
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I too am on the same page with Mike Childs regarding Faithlife and the Logos software. Having been using it since 1998, and having obtained over 6,000 resources for it, to try to be nudged toward a subscription in order to obtain new keepable features under a license (all features of which aren't even known right now) as well as to be required to subscribe in order to purchase new available libraries, all of that left a very bad impression on me regarding Faithlife.
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Subscriptions cover the cost of AI integration. Without subscription fees, there would be no AI. If you don't see the need for AI features, then don't subscribe. Logos already has more features (by far) than any other Bible software app available. Be happy with all the money you've saved, knowing you have the best there is both now, and going forward into the foreseeable future.
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