There are a lot of free education opportunities on the internet but it is hard to distinguish between good and bad programs This is why we have accreditation agencies. I am really excited about Logos Mobile Education from what I have heard so far. However, if anyone is looking to be employed in any type of ministry from teaching to pastoring, most opportunities are going to require an accredited degree. I totally understand the concept of learning for the sake or learning, or learning for the sake of better ministry. However, when I was considering options for doctoral work years ago, I considered a distance school because it was cheap and I could stay in my place of ministry. It was also very credible, but not accredited by ATS or SACS. One of my M.Div. professors gave me great advice: "If you are going to do the work, you need to get credit for it." I read Dale's earlier statement that schools were asking about partnering with Logos to offer credit for these courses. I really hope this happens and quickly. If these classes truly are Master's level courses, then people need to get Master's credit for them. Credit they can use toward degrees that will give them credentials to take advantage of ministry opportunities. For those individuals not seeking an type of vocational service this is not an issue, but for everyone else I would urge you to think about building up credentials that will be recognized by your future employers. This is really exciting and I am looking forward to seeing it come to fruition!
There are a lot of free education opportunities on the internet but it is hard to distinguish between good and bad programs
This is why we have accreditation agencies. I am really excited about Logos Mobile Education from what I have heard so far. However, if anyone is looking to be employed in any type of ministry from teaching to pastoring, most opportunities are going to require an accredited degree. I totally understand the concept of learning for the sake or learning, or learning for the sake of better ministry. However, when I was considering options for doctoral work years ago, I considered a distance school because it was cheap and I could stay in my place of ministry. It was also very credible, but not accredited by ATS or SACS. One of my M.Div. professors gave me great advice: "If you are going to do the work, you need to get credit for it."
I read Dale's earlier statement that schools were asking about partnering with Logos to offer credit for these courses. I really hope this happens and quickly. If these classes truly are Master's level courses, then people need to get Master's credit for them. Credit they can use toward degrees that will give them credentials to take advantage of ministry opportunities. For those individuals not seeking an type of vocational service this is not an issue, but for everyone else I would urge you to think about building up credentials that will be recognized by your future employers.
This is really exciting and I am looking forward to seeing it come to fruition!
True. If there was an option where we could apply these courses to college credits, I'd be very interested. Being able to perform my coursework directly inside Logos and get credit for it in seminary would be excellent. I've dreamed of doing this for a very long time.
I read Dale's earlier statement that schools were asking about partnering with Logos to offer credit for these courses. I really hope this happens and quickly.I am 100% for this type of partnership. However, I have never seen an accredited school grant credit for external programs without gouging the student with unearned fees. It seems common to charge $100 per credit hour entered on a transcript. The granting school is selling their name at a great profit. If you must deal with the profiteers in the temple courts I guess it has to be. But I just want the option to learn the material without the high fees. Many churches would rather have the education than the degree. "No credit" should be an option at a lower fee.
I read Dale's earlier statement that schools were asking about partnering with Logos to offer credit for these courses. I really hope this happens and quickly.
Another good option as well. For those that want the credits, pay extra for them, but for those that want an iTunes-U like audit approach, offer it for less. Good discussion so far on both sides.
May I recommend a foundational course (maybe two) on What Does the Bible say about Heaven and Hell? Or Perhaps something more selective What did Jesus about Heaven? What did Jesus about Hell?
May I recommend a foundational course (maybe two) on
What Does the Bible say about Heaven and Hell?
Or Perhaps something more selective
What did Jesus about Heaven?
What did Jesus about Hell?
Charles Stanley also still has a lot of his course material from the former Charles Stanley Institute for Christian Living. A lot of his videos and coursework is already in electronic format, so it wouldn't take much to convert it to Logos format. It'd be great to revive this into Logos format. I'd sure pay to have it!
I completely agree. This is a great idea for a resource, but it is not a substitute for a course for which one would receive credit; therefore, it should not be priced as such. If the price is right (I have no idea what the right price should be), then I will certainly take advantage of some of these unique resources!
Hi Joshua,
This might be what you are looking for:
http://www.learnlogos.com/Heaven_What_the_Bible_Teaches_Series_p/heaven.htm
http://www.learnlogos.com/Hell_What_the_Bible_Teaches_Series_p/hell.htm
Enjoy!
Me too. (boldface in quote mine)
I am excited to see what courses will be offered. I will complete my BS in Religion in April 2014 and would love to use the classes to supplement my current education. So will it be general courses, prescribe courses around a topic, or classes for credit? Many questions, will you provide more answers? Please!
This is truly exciting news! How does this integrate with your Knox Theological Seminary (KTS) relationship? IS KTS the feeder group for instructors? What is the vetting process for your potential instructors?
Very good poijt. Sort of a "cart before the horse" problem.
Thanks, Dale, for the larger scope of information. I am getting excited and looking forward to what will be offered at the end of the summer. I have completed my Certificate of Graduate Studies at Dallas Theological and have been trying to decide what to do next. I will never likely ever work fulltime in ministry. I am still practicing law and have just taken on a protege to whom I have committed at least 2 or more years. Then there is the cost of courses at DTS; $1500+ per course. It gets expensive. You may be offering the level of courses I want at a more affordable price. At least that is my hope. The concept of being a part of a community of like-minded "study partners" is very exciting, too.
Just one question. Will potential students be able to identify the particular "bent" of the lecturer/professor from his/her bio? I tend to be very conservative and have thoroughly enjoyed the wonderful professors at DTS who are all very conservative and subscribe to the theological statement of the institution.
Just one question. Will potential students be able to identify the particular "bent" of the lecturer/professor from his/her bio?
We do NOT want to have to try to GUESS the ""BENT"" we want it in cold clear black and white LARGE PRINT BOLD (and maybe underlined).
And will there be classes for all ""BENT""s?
We do NOT want to have to try to GUESS the ""BENT"" we want it in cold clear black and white LARGE PRINT BOLD (and maybe underlined). And will there be classes for all ""BENT""s?
i agree, but the professor and his place of teaching will tell you volumes about the "bent"
Interesting comments. Thanks! I will try to address a couple of issues raised and share more of our philosophy.
Logos Moble Ed is designed to offer an efficient way to learn academic and vocational skills in an environment which will be used every day in ministry. It is an ambitious project because it assumes a new "normal" ministry working environment that is digital dependent, or better stated, digitally enhanced. This is a biblical studies program that assumes that the student will own a large Logos digital library, be competent in using Logos Bible Software and will continue to use the software everyday in ministry as part of a "normal" working environment. It represents a departure from the segmented life of "living and studying at school" and then "working in real life ministry." In many cases these two life segments are so disconnected that it is hard to believe the first has anything to do with the second. School is very different than ministry. This is also true of the environment of ministry. If you use Logos every day, you know that school did not really prepare you for this digital working environment.
So our concept once again is to study in the same environment in which you will work, so that you are not only permanently connected to your education, but you are also continuing to learn both content and independent study skills every day as you apply what you learn. Our focus is not on attaining credential or degrees. That is the role of institutions. Our goal is to build confidence in exegesis and develop skill and comfort with digital resources.
The Knox program is unrelated to Logos Mobile Ed, but as someone suggested, Knox professors could find their way into our Mobile Ed courses and there is nothing to prevent Knox from using Mobile Ed courses as part of their program, but there is no contractual obligation to connect the two programs.
As to the bent of professors you really need to do your own assessment. If I described any professor's bent my assessment would itself be colored by my own perspective. I like the suggestion of examining the doctrinal position of the school. While not a perfect reflection of any individual's position it at least demonstrates some common ground held by faculty. Our goal is to present a broad range of faculty. Why? We want to accommodate as many of our users as is practical. You may also want to better understand both those thing with which you agree and disagree. It helps you understand and minister to the varied backgrounds represented in the typical local church.
Thanks, Dale. Your wisdom and clarity are always appreciated. Your expanding definition of this tool makes me more and more excited about it. Cannot wait for the roll out.
I will try to address a couple of issues raised and share more of our philosophy.
Our goal is to present a broad range of faculty. Why? We want to accommodate as many of our users as is practical.
Good strategy.
You may also want to better understand both those thing with which you agree and disagree.
Can we disagree with the professor and still pass the course?
Our goal is to present a broad range of faculty. Why? We want to accommodate as many of our users as is practical. Good strategy. You may also want to better understand both those thing with which you agree and disagree. Can we disagree with the professor and still pass the course?
You certainly can when you take the course from us. I imagine you can do that with most institutions also.
[A] This is a biblical studies program that assumes that the student will own a large Logos digital library, be competent in using Logos Bible Software
A) How LARGE a library? Silver? Master? Gold? Capstone? Platinum? Diamond? Portfolio? The soon coming Orthodox or Reformed?
This is a biblical studies program that assumes that the student will own a large Logos digital library, be competent in using Logos Bible Software A) How LARGE a library? Silver? Master? Gold? Capstone? Platinum? Diamond? Portfolio? The soon coming Orthodox or Reformed?
This is a biblical studies program that assumes that the student will own a large Logos digital library, be competent in using Logos Bible Software
The courses are tagged to Platinum 5 with additional tags to suggested works outside Platinum. The mandate to the editors is to insure that the courses can be fully completed within the boundaries of Platinum plus any additional reference work that might be a specific to a course requirement. At first that sounds contradictory but it is not. Core curriculum is covered with Platinum. Specific electives however, may require specialized books just as would be the case in a traditional classroom environment. For example if you are taking an elective on Dead Sea Scroll materials or another topic like pastoral counseling, you will find these required works listed with the course descriptions or even built into the cost of the course. We have not yet made that final determination.
Let's face it. There is a huge body of resources available beyond Platinum. We encourage the editors to include suggestions with links to additional readings throughout the Logos ecosystem. Many users have very large libraries that will receive these links already and others may be looking for ideas for additional titles within their area of interest.
This sounds really exciting, can't wait to see it roll out. It's just the kind of "formality" I am looking for, my own pace but with some challenge and meat to it.
Dale, will our credits for successfully completing a course be captured reliably somewhere, like on Logos servers, so if one day a seminary comes out with a degree program requiring completion of courses A through Z, and I completed A through F a year earlier, that could be counted if they chose to (I realize they may not wish to grant credit but I was more wondering is my transcript kept somewhere in case)? Or will they have no way of knowing that I already completed the course(s)?
Don, these are good questions. Our plan is to offer formal testing at some point in the future. When that comes to pass, yes we will both store examination results as well as full student transcripts for all courses you take. The first release of the product will have self testing built in to monitor personal progress. Formal testing doesn't make much sense outside of an institutional setting and there is a big question as to whether any institution would just take our courses and exams un-modified and grant full credit. Only time will tell.
Nothing really preventing the professor filming the video subsequently interacting with students via a forum or on-line chat (except time committment and availability... ).
We do NOT want to have to try to GUESS the ""BENT"" we want it in cold clear black and white LARGE PRINT BOLD (and maybe underlined). And will there be classes for all ""BENT""s? i agree, but the professor and his place of teaching will tell you volumes about the "bent"
True that the place of teaching will assist in knowing that. Also, a short bio about the professor, as well as even a possible interview between Logos and the professor, would also help in knowing more about the professor, his philosophy of teaching, his "bent", etc.
Additionally, I agree that Logos should offer a broad range of "bents" on teachers. Not only will it appeal to more customers, but I'd even be willing to take courses from both teachers "bent" toward and away from my beliefs. Help me to expand and broaden my knowledge of what's all out there.
Our goal is to present a broad range of faculty. Why? We want to accommodate as many of our users as is practical. Good strategy. You may also want to better understand both those thing with which you agree and disagree. Can we disagree with the professor and still pass the course? You certainly can when you take the course from us. I imagine you can do that with most institutions also.
I'm sure that's how it'll work as well. Only a couple of tidbits I'll throw in here.
A: On certain tests, you may be asked to answer the tests concerning the lecture notes and reading material and from the point of view of the class. For example, I took an Eschatology class at Luther Rice. Since both LRU and the professor are premill pretrib (so am I), the final exam said to please answer questions along the thinking of a premill pretrib point of view. While there were some in the class who held other views on Eschatology, when test time come, obviously they thought along those lines in order to passed their exams, and utilized discussion boards and papers to state their differing views instead.
B: In "certain" assignments, you could run into a professor who may "count off" a few points if you vary from his "bent" in assignments. Not enough to flunk the course, but simply because he's not going to view your assignment as "correct" when in reality, you may just be differing with him on it. Good example of this was at LRU, I took a Bible Study Methods course. The professor's views on interpretation and application were vastly different from mine. Where he believed I would "allegorize" the text, I believed it was merely "modern day application" (I felt he had serious issues with discerning between interpretation and application, he of course differed). Well, I was counted off a few points on an assignment because he felt I was "allegorizing" the text when I believe I was simply "applying" the text. I still passed the course and still made a good grade on the assignment, but I still got counted off a few points over it.
So it's not a serious issue, but it's just a couple pointers I'd keep in mind.
Dale already said Platinum which is a good move. I would have said at least the L5 replacement to Scholar's (Bronze?). Most seminaries require at least Scholar's for the serious student.
Dale, will our credits for successfully completing a course be captured reliably somewhere, like on Logos servers, so if one day a seminary comes out with a degree program requiring completion of courses A through Z, and I completed A through F a year earlier, that could be counted if they chose to (I realize they may not wish to grant credit but I was more wondering is my transcript kept somewhere in case)? Or will they have no way of knowing that I already completed the course(s)? The only problem I see with that happening is that the professor filming the video will not be available for interaction and I am assuming there will not be any graded assignments. Therefore, I doubt any institution will grant you credit unless the courses are embedded into their course with a professor giving additional oversight to your work. Of course I don't know anything about the courses that hasn't been posted on this forum and online learning opportunities are constantly changing, I just don't want you to count on something that seems unlikely to happen.
Most assignments could be quizzes and exams that are either multiple choice, true/false, etc. Stuff that could be easily graded electronically without professor interaction.
If this really took off, seminaries who'd use it could bring in graders or have some way to submit assignments to the professor or some form of real person grader who could grade and return assignments based on the professor's syllabus and assessment guidelines.
Professors could utilize FaithLife for this. Be able to at-a-glance see interaction on FaithLife groups and when/if they feel they need to chime in about something on their time schedule, they could.
Dale, can you give us a ballpark idea of the range in price for these classes?
Nothing really preventing the professor filming the video subsequently interacting with students via a forum or on-line chat (except time committment and availability... ). Professors could utilize FaithLife for this. Be able to at-a-glance see interaction on FaithLife groups and when/if they feel they need to chime in about something on their time schedule, they could.
Maybe submit a note file for written assignments.
We are still working on the pricing because we are still working on the cost analysis. Our goal is to offer a superior learning experience and ongoing tools for ministry at at price that encourages you as a student and sustains us as a provider. At the same time we know this will not be affordable to everybody just as Logos is not affordable to everybody. It will be much more affordable than moving to another city, getting a new job and going to school, but is not going to be like purchasing a book. You can do that now for a lot less. When we sit in planning meetings we remind ourselves of our stated goal of keeping these courses in the target range of one quarter to one third of normal tuition costs for an equivalent course of study. This also gives an institution room to make use of these materials in their own DE programs. Having said that, we don't know what schools are going to do. We do know we will be offering a great education opportunity directly to Logos users. Over the course of the summer we will give you a lot more information.
As Nathan suggested on a particular reply, I too think tying this into Faithlife would be great. I really like the potential of Faithlife, but it doesn't seem to have gotten traction yet. The more ways Faiithlife is tied in to Logos (optionally of course) lends itself to more chance that the community will build.
In "certain" assignments, you could run into a professor who may "count off" a few points if you vary from his "bent" in assignments. Not enough to flunk the course, but simply because he's not going to view your assignment as "correct" when in reality, you may just be differing with him on it. Good example of this was at LRU, I took a Bible Study Methods course. The professor's views on interpretation and application were vastly different from mine. Where he believed I would "allegorize" the text, I believed it was merely "modern day application" (I felt he had serious issues with discerning between interpretation and application, he of course differed). Well, I was counted off a few points on an assignment because he felt I was "allegorizing" the text when I believe I was simply "applying" the text. I still passed the course and still made a good grade on the assignment, but I still got counted off a few points over it.
From my experience, this is really no different than taking a literature, history, english, or almost any arts course; to the extent the professor believes you have done a good job in critical thinking and expressing yourself, they grade you well. Every professor has different standards, we learn how to get along with them in the class or worst case drop it.
In "certain" assignments, you could run into a professor who may "count off" a few points if you vary from his "bent" in assignments. Not enough to flunk the course, but simply because he's not going to view your assignment as "correct" when in reality, you may just be differing with him on it. Good example of this was at LRU, I took a Bible Study Methods course. The professor's views on interpretation and application were vastly different from mine. Where he believed I would "allegorize" the text, I believed it was merely "modern day application" (I felt he had serious issues with discerning between interpretation and application, he of course differed). Well, I was counted off a few points on an assignment because he felt I was "allegorizing" the text when I believe I was simply "applying" the text. I still passed the course and still made a good grade on the assignment, but I still got counted off a few points over it. From my experience, this is really no different than taking a literature, history, english, or almost any arts course; to the extent the professor believes you have done a good job in critical thinking and expressing yourself, they grade you well. Every professor has different standards, we learn how to get along with them in the class or worst case drop it.
When I mark students essays, I'm glad when they disagree with me (and I think most seminary professors would say the same). It's boring marking essays where students just trot out what they hear in class.
However, remember that it's highly likely that I know almost all of the arguments against my own view pretty well, and have already rejected them. So if a student is going to take a view that's different from my own, they need have some pretty good arguments for doing so. If they do that successfully, they're going to get a very high mark, if they don't do that well, they're going to get slightly worse marks than they would have got if they took the same position as myself. If you say that the guy who teaches you is wrong, and all you've got to show for it are some insubstantial or half-baked arguments, he's right to feel a little aggrieved that you haven't been paying enough attention to the more substantial arguments that he's given in class.
In short, only disagree with your lecturer if you're confident you can demonstrate to him that your arguments for your view are at least as good as his arguments for his view.
our stated goal of keeping these courses in the target range of one quarter to one third of normal tuition costs for an equivalent course of study.
Logos is not affordable to everybody.
Would it be to soon to ask for a rough listing of courses? I'm quite interested, especially in Biblical counseling (as a practicing counselor I always want to grow) and teacher, but I know there are many philosophies of counseling that I would not agree with at all. Just curious to see if this is something I can get excited about.
After using Logos for about 2 years now, I believe it is very cheap when you consider what you are getting for your money.
[Y] Been using Logos a bit longer, and I agree with your assessment [Y]
We are preparing a list of courses that represent three categories, 1, under development now, 2. scheduled for production and 3. targets for development. We hope to publish the full list during the summer. I can tell you that among the first courses will be a brand new Logos Academic training course by Morris Proctor, Intro courses to Old Testament, New Testament, four courses in Systematic Theology, brand new Learn to use Greek and Hebrew courses, Hermeneutics, and a variety of OT and NT electives.
Dare we ask the general price range?
The best indication on pricing so far is in Dale's post above - http://community.logos.com/forums/p/70628/493853.aspx#493853
Logos users come from all over the world, and all different denominations. The professor's name and place of teaching may tell them absolutely zero.
Core curriculum is covered with Platinum.
In that case I take it that
Our goal is to offer multiple courses from various theological perspectives.
does, in fact, mean "various Evangelical perspectives".
We do NOT want to have to try to GUESS the ""BENT"" we want it in cold clear black and white LARGE PRINT BOLD (and maybe underlined). And will there be classes for all ""BENT""s? i agree, but the professor and his place of teaching will tell you volumes about the "bent" Logos users come from all over the world, and all different denominations. The professor's name and place of teaching may tell them absolutely zero. Core curriculum is covered with Platinum. In that case I take it that Our goal is to offer multiple courses from various theological perspectives. does, in fact, mean "various Evangelical perspectives".
I would take it to mean any Protestant point of view. You could very well be including many reformed points of view as well.
C'est la vie, and it is what it is. I don't expect them to offer anyone having my perspective because there isn't any...yet. I suspect that as time passes, Logos will open up the options to a broader variety of instructors--but folks really need to keep two things in mind.
First, they haven't even started this thing yet (maybe you should let something actually happen before complaining about it?)...and second, whatever comes first (and something WILL have to be first), it isn't going to be the last or only. Give the whole thing some time. Logos has well demonstrated their willingness to include anything in their stable that will support itself financially.
While this all sounds interesting, I'm rather doubtful I will end up participating, but I do hope that it adds overall utility to the Logos universe's "skill set".
Very good observations, David [Y]
Did you all see the twitter post about LME?
Dr. John Walton is here today filming a lecture on Gen 1–3 for @Logos. Awesome things coming, so stay tuned. pic.twitter.com/N7xra58GGZ
First, they haven't even started this thing yet (maybe you should let something actually happen before complaining about it?)...and second, whatever comes first (and something WILL have to be first), it isn't going to be the last or only. Give the whole thing some time. Logos has well demonstrated their willingness to include anything in their stable that will support itself financially. Very good observations, David
Very good observations, David
True, and I for one am not complaining or wishing to gripe about it at all. I'm very excited about this. I'm not saying I'll just purchase this for the sake of it, but I am curious as to see what all Logos offers with it, and anything that would be beneficial to furthering my Christian education, I'll seriously consider purchasing.
A few thoughts on it:
1. The format sounds very exciting and fun. I can't wait to see this in action.
2. I'm not too worried about pricing, and if Logos offers flexibility (like payment plans, etc.), even the icing on the cake. Again, I'm not just going to purchase something just to have it, but any courses I feel I would truly get a major benefit on and that personally to me would be worth the cost, I'll seriously consider purchasing and taking them. If Logos offers "collections" of courses as well at a discount, that could be another selling factor.
3. As for the "bents", I can see no issue with taking courses with professors of different "bents". Would be interesting to broaden my knowledge of how others think, and I can see how Logos can definitely appeal to a broad range of customers this way. What I stated earlier was merely some pointers of how my personal Bible college experience has been.
4. I hope Logos deeply integrates this into the ecosystem (FaithLife, maybe even Proclaim if churches wanted to use the material to teach a church Bible study, etc.), as well as if Logos could team up with colleges and seminaries to offer versions that can be used toward college credit (at an extra cost), then of course I'd be interested in this as well as I deepen my seminary studies.
5. I see this as even a good possible opportunity for me to contribute to later down the road as I work to become an online professor. I'm not qualified enough yet to "teach" on this, but later down the road when I get more credentials under me, I'd have a fun time contributing to this provided Logos would have me.
All in all, I think is is going to be great, and I for one am thrilled and eager to see what's in store. I can't wait to see what Logos delivers with this!
