Rapture (caught-up)
I was "caught-up" so-to speak, on the subject of the "Rapture" on Amazon.com. I was browsing the theology section, and was reading some of the replies on the subject. As I was reading the rebuttals, I came across a reply that seemed to have no challenge or rebuttal to it. I thought that I would lay this out here for the experienced and see what they make of it.
As for myself, I do study scripture, but only basically, for pleasure using Logos and mostly reading from hardback books. I'm just curious as to how many flaws this person would have in his post.
Post following:
V. Sirois says:
There is nothing in our future for fulfilled Bible Prophecy - everything was fulfilled in the first century just as Jesus promised, in the destruction of Jerusalem.
The main problem you seem to be having is that you base everything on the "PHYSICAL" aspect of eschatology, when it was never meant to be that way (except in the Old covenant aspect of shadow/type) and everything would be fulfilled in the spiritual aspect of new covenant promised fulfillment.
John says, "Little children , IT IS THE LAST TIME.And even as ye heard that anti-christ will come (in the last time), even now there are many anti-christs, WHERE_BY WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME." The many anti-christs proved that the predicted "Anti-Christ" was already full bloom in the first century.
How can we be living in the last days, when they were living in the LAST TIME of the last days in the fullness of the Spirit of Anti-Christ.??? The falling away took place in the first century as predicted by Christ and Paul.
If you want, I have an excellent little booklet that puts this subject to rest as to a first century fulfillment, along with a few books that I'll send free of charge, which have never been refuted.
Look at 2Pet.3. Peter is speaking to his first century audience about things that were predicted by the Prophets for THEIR last days. The False Teachers were questioning the soon second-coming, just as those of Noah's days. Both groups were denying a soon coming judgment on their generations.
Notice what Peter says in the Greek, 'Seeing then that all these things ARE BEING DISSOLVED (present tense, first century scenario), what manner of persons ought you (first century believers) to be,......presently waiting and presently hastening the presence of the day of God, on account of which the heavens already being on fire will be dissolved, and the elements already burning already melt."
Peter says he was living in the LAST DAYS - was he lying ?? (1Pet. 1:5, 20 / 4:5-7).
Read 2 Pet.2:1--3:7. Compare with all of Jude. They are both pointing to a present (first century ) situation in their last days. The last days scoffers were among them - the Greek text emphatically brings this out.
2 Pet. anticipates a fulfillment for first century believers, otherwise Peter would have said, "Don't worry about a thing, Jesus ain't coming back for 2000 years or so, you'll be dead so you won't be able to eagerly "LOOK" for Him anyways." Jude was actually written as a fulfillment of many of 2 Pet.3. Compare Jude with 2 Pet.
Also what Jude says in vs.14, that the coming of Christ to execute judgement would be on the first century wicked.
Also vss.17-19 , "...words spoken by the apostles" (Peter); "...There would be mockers in the last time walking after their own lusts...(2Pet.3:3); "THESE are the ones presently Separating themselves ( first century wicked amidst the first century believers).
1 Pet.1:5..."salvation about to be revealed in the last time."
1 Pet.4:4 (first century wicked speaking evil).
1 Pet.4:5 (first century wicked will give account "to Him who is on the verge of judging the quick and dead."
1 Pet.4:7 "The end of all things is at hand" (therefore, the first century believers were to be sober and watch.)
75% of Jude is in the present tense, signifying that wickedness was a first century problem (specific letter to specific people) and that judgement would be dished out in the first century as a relief to first century believers.
BTW, The word RAPTURE "harpazo" in the greek never gives any inclination of direction (up), but simply means "to be seized, taken hold of, taken advantage of,.. see Theological dictionary of the new testament & New international Dictionary of N.T. Theology. If "UP" was implied, then the Greek prefix/preposition "ana" or possibly (unlikely) "ek" would be used with "harpazo" to give it direction, but they are not used.
Here are 2 articles that might help to understand the issue of the rapture: They are from Don Preston's web-site. He is a Preacher, Author, and Debater who has never been refuted in his understanding of Full-Preterism. You can read a load of other articles as well that have to do with Eschatology:
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79:thessalonians-and-the-olivet-discourse&catid=33:matthew-24&Itemid=61
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=166:leaving-the-rapture-behind&catid=42:time-statements&Itemid=61
The question needs to be asked, "Who is Jesus talking to in Matt.24, and who are the letters written to in the new testament."
He said, "THIS GENERATION" (demonstrative pronoun/specific first century contemporary people)= 40 year period=30a.d. - 70a.d.
The second coming was in their immediate future, otherwise Christ and Paul were both liars. All you have to do is read the context of Matt. 24(which starts at the end of Chap.23, and you'll see that it all coincides with the disciples question about the temple complex and the end of the age-mosaic age -(not end of the world-bad translation from the KJV.) which would take place in their immediate future with the destruction of the temple in 70ad - that is why the second coming and resurrection were in the future. We are reading first century mail to those who would see these things take place in their generation.
Jesus Himself said that He would return "In the Glory of the Father".
What did He mean by that statement?? God's glory was revealed in His judgemnets on nations in the Old Testament (Read the examples below) - but first read this:
The parallel texts for Mark 13:30 are Matt.24:1-44 and Luke 17:20-37 ; 21:5-36. In all 3 gospels, Christ is addressing the disciples questions surrounding the temple and it's destruction, which would be in that generation, ("this" generation = specific to the disciples, 40 years (30a.d.-70a.d.).
After they were admiring the First century temple buildings in Matt.24:1, Jesus tells His disciples in Matt.24:2 "See all these things? There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." He was specifically talking about the first century temple.
After this the disciples ask, "When will these things take place,(the destruction of the temple) and what will be the sign of your presence and the end of the age (Mosaic Age) - the Jews saw life in 2 ages: Mosaic Age and Messianic Age., in essence, "What will be the sign that You are reigning as Messiah and the Mosaic age has been done away with??"
The "sign" that Christ was reigning and the end of the Mosaic age, is seen in Matt.24:27-30.
Vs.27: As bright as lightning is, it means an imminent storm. The tribulation would reveal the soon coming of Christ (His presence in judgement).
Vs.29: The sun would be darkened, moon not give light, the stars fall from heaven.
Many believe this to be a literal destruction of the universe, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Jesus was talking to His "Jewish" disciples. The Jews saw this as "Apocalyptic Language" that described God's judgement upon nations.
Read the following passages from the Old Testament to see how this language was used:
Ps.18:7-13 & 2 Sam.22:1-16 (David delivered out of Sauls hands)
Isa.13:1-11 (Judgement on Babylon)
Ezek. 32:1-16 (judgement on Egypt)
Isa.34:1-10 (judgement on Idumea & Bozrah) - see also Luke 23:28-30 & Rev.6:13-16 & Hosea 10:8 (judgements on Israel)
Amos 8:1-11 (judgement on Israel)
Joel 1:11-15 w/ Matt.21:33-46; Joel 2:28-32 (judgements on Israel)
There are a few more, but I'm sure you know what Jesus was saying - Judgement is coming soon on Jerusalem, and that would be in 70a.d.
Vs. 30: Judgement upon Jerusalem would be the sign that Christ was reigning in heaven at the right hand of the Father (Matt.26:63-66 - Christ was claiming that He would judge them, even as the Father had done in the Old Testament). The tribes of the land of Israel would mourn when they saw their only means of communication with God destroyed(the temple). The old heaven and earth would give way to the New Heaven and earth (old covenant -new covenant).
Pertaining to the Resurrection, read this:
1 Cor.15:25 says in the greek, "For He must PRESENTLY reign til all enemies are put under His feet; the last enemy PRESENTLY BEING destroyed is THE DEATH (specific death=spiritual death in Adam).
Christ was PRESENTLY reigning in the first century til His enemies (Israel=those who rejected Christ - read Matt.23:29-36) were put under His feet in 70a.d.
If physical death was PRESENTLY BEING destroyed, don't you think we would see some kind of evolutionary process going on with our bodies, being half physical and half spiritual???
Also, read verses 29-49 and see how often the PRESENT Tense is used in the Greek.
Vs.29 "what will they do who are being baptized for the dead if the dead are not presently rising??" (first century resurrection!!)
Vs. 32,"If the dead are not presently rising, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."
Vs. 35, "But someone will say, How are the dead Being presently raised up? And with what body are they presently coming into? (first century resurrection).
Vs. 36, "Foolish one, what you are presently sowing is not made alive unless it dies (first century sowing).
Vs.37, "And what you are presently sowing, you are not presently sowing that body that shall be.....(first century sowing of the body - were they burying their bodies before they died???-think about it!!!)
Vs. 38 "But God is presently giving it a body (first century transformation = out of the body of Adam(old covenant,sin-death, into the new covenant body of Christ = righteousness, eternal life)
Vs. 42-44, "So also is the present resurrection of the dead. The body is presently being sown in corruption, it is presently being raised in incorruption. It is presently being sown in dishonor, it is presently being raised in glory. It is presently being sown in weakness, it is presently being raised in power. It is presently being sown a natural body(man in Adam = out of covenant), it is presently being raised a spiritual body (first century transformation period = taken out of Adam (dead to God) and being transformed into the image of Christ (alive to God). There is presently a natural body and there is presently a spiritual body (one was being sown, the other rising unto newness of life.).
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.
If you would like a free DVD and Book that explain the true symbolism of the Scriptures - along with the fact that Full-Preterism is irrefutable, then let me know here.
I would appreciate any thought on this piece of work.
Enjoy
dwdraw2
Comments
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses [sic] mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.
I find this statement rather interesting. It is certainly at odds with much of the forum with regard to the scriptures—it would appear to not be so "useful for teaching, for reproof …" if it is simply "someone else's mail." Even though my view of scripture differs somewhat from many of the members here, I attach greater importance to it than simply "someone else's mail." What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"? Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans? Where does this lead?
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"? Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans? Where does this lead?
So true.
Bohuslav
I do read some Eschatology, but I don't recall reading anything on "Preterism."
J. Stuart Russels Parousia. Best book ever written on the topic of New Testament prophecy. Not available on Logos that I am aware of. Available free online, Google books and various other places. Also in print or on Kindle at Amazon.
Already mentioned Sprouls "Last Days".
Don Preston is really good, has some great material but goes too far in some areas IMO. But I recommend his material as long as you maintain critical thinking.
If you are like I was years ago and have never been exposed to anything but dispensationalism, these books will all be huge eye-openers.
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses [sic] mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.I find this statement rather interesting. It is certainly at odds with much of the forum with regard to the scriptures—it would appear to not be so "useful for teaching, for reproof …" if it is simply "someone else's mail." Even though my view of scripture differs somewhat from many of the members here, I attach greater importance to it than simply "someone else's mail." What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"? Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans? Where does this lead?
And this point (to me at least) seems a valid critique of MANY approaches to the Bible and especially Revelation. If it is all about things that happened in the 1st Century, it isn't really for us. And yet it is just about truths for the "end times", then in what way is it for those who died in Christ? And so to me at least, it seems like we are driven by the text to read it in ways that give meaning to it both now AND then
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
both now AND then[Y]
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses [sic] mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.I find this statement rather interesting. It is certainly at odds with much of the forum with regard to the scriptures—it would appear to not be so "useful for teaching, for reproof …" if it is simply "someone else's mail." Even though my view of scripture differs somewhat from many of the members here, I attach greater importance to it than simply "someone else's mail." What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"? Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans? Where does this lead?
And this point (to me at least) seems a valid critique of MANY approaches to the Bible and especially Revelation. If it is all about things that happened in the 1st Century, it isn't really for us. And yet it is just about truths for the "end times", then in what way is it for those who died in Christ? And so to me at least, it seems like we are driven by the text to read it in ways that give meaning to it both now AND then
Precisely correct.
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
Much of the answers to these questions lie in whether or not God's promises to Israel were intended to happen to literal Israel or whether the Church would replace Israel and the blessings would be primarily received "spiritually". Logos has a book called, Israelology, written from a dispensationalist perspective but through extesnive quoting from other schools of thought, laying out the systematic theology on the topic of the future of Israel. I highly recommend it: http://www.logos.com/product/3901/israelology-the-missing-link-in-systematic-theology
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org
Pick up the book: The end is near, or, maybe not.
Kenneth Myers.
Available on Kindle, very inexpensive.
Will help a great deal with understanding an Eschatology of Hope.
Grace and Peace
If the book of Revelation was written in 90 a.d. then that goes against everything beings fulfilled in 70 a.d.
From my understanding "this generation" that does not pass away refers to the generation of that context. Which would be the one that see's the signs vs.33 that chapter 24 of Matthew is all about.
If the book of Revelation was written in 90 a.d. then that goes against everything beings fulfilled in 70 a.d.
From my understanding "this generation" that does not pass away refers to the generation of that context. Which would be the one that see's the signs vs.33 that chapter 24 of Matthew is all about.
Not necessarily. The Greek γενεά which is used here could also mean "race, kind."
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
Peace, Daniel!
*smile* If you enjoy novels, Logos' Vyrso Division has a couple on different sides of the question ... the Left Behind Series - and then Hannegraff's response with the Last Temple series. Last Sacrifice, Last Disciple, Last Temple....
I've read both sides and enjoyed them both!
Actually, I enjoyed the Hannegraff-Brouwer books a little more since they were more geared to Biblical times and themes rather than defending the Rapture.... also heavy on Palestine at the time of John the Apostle ....... tear jerkers! Yes! *smile*
Maybe some others have read these also???
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
Actually, I enjoyed the Hannegraff-Brouwer books a little more since they were more geared to Biblical times and themes rather than defending the Rapture.... also heavy on Palestine at the time of John the Apostle ....... tear jerkers! Yes! *smile*
Maybe some others have read these also???
Enjoyed the "Last" series, read all of the LaHay stuff when I was a teenager
, Have two in dead tree format and have bought them in the Logos format. For me, they are a nice to read and relax with. [Y]
Some day soon I will buy the last one in the "Last" series. I thought they were a breath of fresh air after enduring so may "Left Behind" books. [;)]
http://hombrereformado.blogspot.com/ Solo a Dios la Gloria Apoyo
I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.
As for the title of this thread, and the content of an early comment, though the term "Rapture" does not occur in the KJV English Bible, yet the Greek word which it represents as it occurs in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is there rendered "caught up." Since the meeting occurs "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air, that certainly says enough in context to indicate the movement is upward.
I happened upon this thread today while waiting for my newest Logos 5 resource, The Theocratic Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus, the Christ, in three volumes, was being "indexed." That took 20 minutes. Reading all these interesting posts, especially those by the Preterists, took much longer than that.
I personally believe that the work by George N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, is most helpful. I commend its careful study.
I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.
As for the title of this thread, and the content of an early comment, though the term "Rapture" does not occur in the KJV English Bible, yet the Greek word which it represents as it occurs in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is there rendered "caught up." Since the meeting occurs "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air, that certainly says enough in context to indicate the movement is upward.
I happened upon this thread today while waiting for my newest Logos 5 resource, The Theocratic Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus, the Christ, in three volumes, was being "indexed." That took 20 minutes. Reading all these interesting posts, especially those by the Preterists, took much longer than that.
I personally believe that the work by George N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, is most helpful. I commend its careful study.
Peace, Jerome! *smile* Thank you for contributing to the "sharings" on this thread. You may want to share this post on FaithLife at https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity
... and ... then, again ... You may not! *smile* I also, with Bruce and others, received Peters' book today; however, I haven't had a chance to peruse it as of yet! Blessings!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.
I must confess, it did get interesting.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
I can blow so many holes in preterism that preterists would have a hard time giving themselves a splinter with the remains. But the same is true for every "ism" out there; they are all provincial fiefdoms battling for their own six feet of earth...which will one day cover them. The entire history of Christianity is a tedious parade of 'isms", each attempting to supplant what went before with its own proprietary answers for perceived previous errors. Take just one example--Calvinism, or the more palatable moniker, "Reformed". Now, considering YHWH and His jealous nature, what are the chances that He would allow his precious Truth to ever be rightly addressed as "reformed"? The very idea is insulting and any answer to the question not equivalent to zero is absurd. His Truth won't be categorized in that way, and every time you try to pin it like a moth to a board, it suddenly goes all mercurial on you. If you have pinned something to a board, and have assigned a name to it, I assure you--it isn't Truth.
The proper name for that beast is "arrogance".
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
For a correction of the many misunderstandings found here, I would recommend "The Last Things" by George Eldon Ladd, which is available in Logos. That is my opinion. 'Nuff said.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
Oh, man...there is so much I want to say about this. But I'll limit myself here because of forum rules.
BTW, The word RAPTURE "harpazo" in the greek never gives any inclination of direction (up), but simply means "to be seized, taken hold of, taken advantage of,.. see Theological dictionary of the new testament & New international Dictionary of N.T. Theology. If "UP" was implied, then the Greek prefix/preposition "ana" or possibly (unlikely) "ek" would be used with "harpazo" to give it direction, but they are not used.
I say just this one thing. [:)] If I am standing on the ground, where are the clouds? [:O]
To Daniel and Josh! *smile* Thanks to both of you for your attitude!
... and your forbearance!
The Logos Forums are so very important to so many people and are so very helpful in so many respects.
Of course we all have strong and passionate feelings about many things, and it's hard to be always "cool," eh???
May God help us show His Love to one another! *smile*
Peace!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
I say just this one thing.If I am standing on the ground, where are the clouds?
Surely that would depend on how you define "ground" - if you were standing on the top of a mountain then they would more than likely be below you [;)]
I say just this one thing.Surely that would depend on how you define "ground" - if you were standing on the top of a mountain then they would more than likely be below you
Perhaps, if you were in the Himalayas.
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
I say just this one thing.Surely that would depend on how you define "ground" - if you were standing on the top of a mountain then they would more than likely be below you
Perhaps, if you were in the Himalayas.
Rapture free zone. [:D]
According to the author of the post, none. According to many others, many (including me).
I think eschatology is the last things we should discuss in these forums. [;)]
Since these forums are not the place to discuss theology (let alone eschatology!), I hesitate to comment further. He takes the preterist view (or at least a version of it). I would hesitate to agree with or debunk that view here. But I could say that there are those who hold this view who's faith I would not question.
Looks a little self-promoting too (last paragraph).
Logos does have a myriad of resources on eschatology. This includes Four Views on Revelation, which you may find interesting. But it doesn't discuss the preterist view itself in depth. It does however represent the preterist view as it goes through Revelation as a commentary.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
Since the only way to answer this post is by resource recommendations, one book I see in Logos that may shed some light either to confirm one's faith or challenge it is, "Will Catholics be left behind?", by Carl Olsen. I think you have it if you have Silver and above, otherwise it can be purchased here for $13.95. The synopsis:
Carl Olson grew up with many misconceptions about the “end times.” This study is a thorough critique of the popular notion of the “Rapture”—the belief that Christians will be removed from earth prior to a time of Tribulation and the Second Coming. It examines the theological, historical, and biblical basis for premillennial dispensationalism, the belief system based around the Rapture, and popularized in the best-selling Left Behind books.
FYI: I have Platinum, but do not have this resource. It may be in a Verbum bundle, but it is not in any standard bundle, as far as I could tell. Not sure about other bundles.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
I have L4 Platinum and L5 Gold and don't have the book also.
EDITED: OK, I see the Sleiman's explanation now. Thanks.
Bohuslav
Thanks for your reply. It is humorous, I never thought of it in that light.
I will check out the books.
Thanks again.