Rapture (caught-up)
I was "caught-up" so-to speak, on the subject of the "Rapture" on Amazon.com. I was browsing the theology section, and was reading some of the replies on the subject. As I was reading the rebuttals, I came across a reply that seemed to have no challenge or rebuttal to it. I thought that I would lay this out here for the experienced and see what they make of it.
As for myself, I do study scripture, but only basically, for pleasure using Logos and mostly reading from hardback books. I'm just curious as to how many flaws this person would have in his post.
Post following:
V. Sirois says:
There is nothing in our future for fulfilled Bible Prophecy - everything was fulfilled in the first century just as Jesus promised, in the destruction of Jerusalem.
The main problem you seem to be having is that you base everything on the "PHYSICAL" aspect of eschatology, when it was never meant to be that way (except in the Old covenant aspect of shadow/type) and everything would be fulfilled in the spiritual aspect of new covenant promised fulfillment.
John says, "Little children , IT IS THE LAST TIME.And even as ye heard that anti-christ will come (in the last time), even now there are many anti-christs, WHERE_BY WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME." The many anti-christs proved that the predicted "Anti-Christ" was already full bloom in the first century.
How can we be living in the last days, when they were living in the LAST TIME of the last days in the fullness of the Spirit of Anti-Christ.??? The falling away took place in the first century as predicted by Christ and Paul.
If you want, I have an excellent little booklet that puts this subject to rest as to a first century fulfillment, along with a few books that I'll send free of charge, which have never been refuted.
Look at 2Pet.3. Peter is speaking to his first century audience about things that were predicted by the Prophets for THEIR last days. The False Teachers were questioning the soon second-coming, just as those of Noah's days. Both groups were denying a soon coming judgment on their generations.
Notice what Peter says in the Greek, 'Seeing then that all these things ARE BEING DISSOLVED (present tense, first century scenario), what manner of persons ought you (first century believers) to be,......presently waiting and presently hastening the presence of the day of God, on account of which the heavens already being on fire will be dissolved, and the elements already burning already melt."
Peter says he was living in the LAST DAYS - was he lying ?? (1Pet. 1:5, 20 / 4:5-7).
Read 2 Pet.2:1--3:7. Compare with all of Jude. They are both pointing to a present (first century ) situation in their last days. The last days scoffers were among them - the Greek text emphatically brings this out.
2 Pet. anticipates a fulfillment for first century believers, otherwise Peter would have said, "Don't worry about a thing, Jesus ain't coming back for 2000 years or so, you'll be dead so you won't be able to eagerly "LOOK" for Him anyways." Jude was actually written as a fulfillment of many of 2 Pet.3. Compare Jude with 2 Pet.
Also what Jude says in vs.14, that the coming of Christ to execute judgement would be on the first century wicked.
Also vss.17-19 , "...words spoken by the apostles" (Peter); "...There would be mockers in the last time walking after their own lusts...(2Pet.3:3); "THESE are the ones presently Separating themselves ( first century wicked amidst the first century believers).
1 Pet.1:5..."salvation about to be revealed in the last time."
1 Pet.4:4 (first century wicked speaking evil).
1 Pet.4:5 (first century wicked will give account "to Him who is on the verge of judging the quick and dead."
1 Pet.4:7 "The end of all things is at hand" (therefore, the first century believers were to be sober and watch.)
75% of Jude is in the present tense, signifying that wickedness was a first century problem (specific letter to specific people) and that judgement would be dished out in the first century as a relief to first century believers.
BTW, The word RAPTURE "harpazo" in the greek never gives any inclination of direction (up), but simply means "to be seized, taken hold of, taken advantage of,.. see Theological dictionary of the new testament & New international Dictionary of N.T. Theology. If "UP" was implied, then the Greek prefix/preposition "ana" or possibly (unlikely) "ek" would be used with "harpazo" to give it direction, but they are not used.
Here are 2 articles that might help to understand the issue of the rapture: They are from Don Preston's web-site. He is a Preacher, Author, and Debater who has never been refuted in his understanding of Full-Preterism. You can read a load of other articles as well that have to do with Eschatology:
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79:thessalonians-and-the-olivet-discourse&catid=33:matthew-24&Itemid=61
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=166:leaving-the-rapture-behind&catid=42:time-statements&Itemid=61
The question needs to be asked, "Who is Jesus talking to in Matt.24, and who are the letters written to in the new testament."
He said, "THIS GENERATION" (demonstrative pronoun/specific first century contemporary people)= 40 year period=30a.d. - 70a.d.
The second coming was in their immediate future, otherwise Christ and Paul were both liars. All you have to do is read the context of Matt. 24(which starts at the end of Chap.23, and you'll see that it all coincides with the disciples question about the temple complex and the end of the age-mosaic age -(not end of the world-bad translation from the KJV.) which would take place in their immediate future with the destruction of the temple in 70ad - that is why the second coming and resurrection were in the future. We are reading first century mail to those who would see these things take place in their generation.
Jesus Himself said that He would return "In the Glory of the Father".
What did He mean by that statement?? God's glory was revealed in His judgemnets on nations in the Old Testament (Read the examples below) - but first read this:
The parallel texts for Mark 13:30 are Matt.24:1-44 and Luke 17:20-37 ; 21:5-36. In all 3 gospels, Christ is addressing the disciples questions surrounding the temple and it's destruction, which would be in that generation, ("this" generation = specific to the disciples, 40 years (30a.d.-70a.d.).
After they were admiring the First century temple buildings in Matt.24:1, Jesus tells His disciples in Matt.24:2 "See all these things? There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." He was specifically talking about the first century temple.
After this the disciples ask, "When will these things take place,(the destruction of the temple) and what will be the sign of your presence and the end of the age (Mosaic Age) - the Jews saw life in 2 ages: Mosaic Age and Messianic Age., in essence, "What will be the sign that You are reigning as Messiah and the Mosaic age has been done away with??"
The "sign" that Christ was reigning and the end of the Mosaic age, is seen in Matt.24:27-30.
Vs.27: As bright as lightning is, it means an imminent storm. The tribulation would reveal the soon coming of Christ (His presence in judgement).
Vs.29: The sun would be darkened, moon not give light, the stars fall from heaven.
Many believe this to be a literal destruction of the universe, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Jesus was talking to His "Jewish" disciples. The Jews saw this as "Apocalyptic Language" that described God's judgement upon nations.
Read the following passages from the Old Testament to see how this language was used:
Ps.18:7-13 & 2 Sam.22:1-16 (David delivered out of Sauls hands)
Isa.13:1-11 (Judgement on Babylon)
Ezek. 32:1-16 (judgement on Egypt)
Isa.34:1-10 (judgement on Idumea & Bozrah) - see also Luke 23:28-30 & Rev.6:13-16 & Hosea 10:8 (judgements on Israel)
Amos 8:1-11 (judgement on Israel)
Joel 1:11-15 w/ Matt.21:33-46; Joel 2:28-32 (judgements on Israel)
There are a few more, but I'm sure you know what Jesus was saying - Judgement is coming soon on Jerusalem, and that would be in 70a.d.
Vs. 30: Judgement upon Jerusalem would be the sign that Christ was reigning in heaven at the right hand of the Father (Matt.26:63-66 - Christ was claiming that He would judge them, even as the Father had done in the Old Testament). The tribes of the land of Israel would mourn when they saw their only means of communication with God destroyed(the temple). The old heaven and earth would give way to the New Heaven and earth (old covenant -new covenant).
Pertaining to the Resurrection, read this:
1 Cor.15:25 says in the greek, "For He must PRESENTLY reign til all enemies are put under His feet; the last enemy PRESENTLY BEING destroyed is THE DEATH (specific death=spiritual death in Adam).
Christ was PRESENTLY reigning in the first century til His enemies (Israel=those who rejected Christ - read Matt.23:29-36) were put under His feet in 70a.d.
If physical death was PRESENTLY BEING destroyed, don't you think we would see some kind of evolutionary process going on with our bodies, being half physical and half spiritual???
Also, read verses 29-49 and see how often the PRESENT Tense is used in the Greek.
Vs.29 "what will they do who are being baptized for the dead if the dead are not presently rising??" (first century resurrection!!)
Vs. 32,"If the dead are not presently rising, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."
Vs. 35, "But someone will say, How are the dead Being presently raised up? And with what body are they presently coming into? (first century resurrection).
Vs. 36, "Foolish one, what you are presently sowing is not made alive unless it dies (first century sowing).
Vs.37, "And what you are presently sowing, you are not presently sowing that body that shall be.....(first century sowing of the body - were they burying their bodies before they died???-think about it!!!)
Vs. 38 "But God is presently giving it a body (first century transformation = out of the body of Adam(old covenant,sin-death, into the new covenant body of Christ = righteousness, eternal life)
Vs. 42-44, "So also is the present resurrection of the dead. The body is presently being sown in corruption, it is presently being raised in incorruption. It is presently being sown in dishonor, it is presently being raised in glory. It is presently being sown in weakness, it is presently being raised in power. It is presently being sown a natural body(man in Adam = out of covenant), it is presently being raised a spiritual body (first century transformation period = taken out of Adam (dead to God) and being transformed into the image of Christ (alive to God). There is presently a natural body and there is presently a spiritual body (one was being sown, the other rising unto newness of life.).
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.
If you would like a free DVD and Book that explain the true symbolism of the Scriptures - along with the fact that Full-Preterism is irrefutable, then let me know here.
I would appreciate any thought on this piece of work.
Enjoy
dwdraw2
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Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses [sic] mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.I find this statement rather interesting. It is certainly at odds with much of the forum with regard to the scriptures—it would appear to not be so "useful for teaching, for reproof …" if it is simply "someone else's mail." Even though my view of scripture differs somewhat from many of the members here, I attach greater importance to it than simply "someone else's mail." What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"? Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans? Where does this lead?
And this point (to me at least) seems a valid critique of MANY approaches to the Bible and especially Revelation. If it is all about things that happened in the 1st Century, it isn't really for us. And yet it is just about truths for the "end times", then in what way is it for those who died in Christ? And so to me at least, it seems like we are driven by the text to read it in ways that give meaning to it both now AND then
Precisely correct.
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
[Y]And this point (to me at least) seems a valid critique of MANY approaches to the Bible and especially Revelation. If it is all about things that happened in the 1st Century, it isn't really for us. And yet it is just about truths for the "end times", then in what way is it for those who died in Christ? And so to me at least, it seems like we are driven by the text to read it in ways that give meaning to it both now AND then
I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.
As for the title of this thread, and the content of an early comment, though the term "Rapture" does not occur in the KJV English Bible, yet the Greek word which it represents as it occurs in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is there rendered "caught up." Since the meeting occurs "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air, that certainly says enough in context to indicate the movement is upward.
I happened upon this thread today while waiting for my newest Logos 5 resource, The Theocratic Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus, the Christ, in three volumes, was being "indexed." That took 20 minutes. Reading all these interesting posts, especially those by the Preterists, took much longer than that.
I personally believe that the work by George N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, is most helpful. I commend its careful study.
I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.
As for the title of this thread, and the content of an early comment, though the term "Rapture" does not occur in the KJV English Bible, yet the Greek word which it represents as it occurs in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is there rendered "caught up." Since the meeting occurs "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air, that certainly says enough in context to indicate the movement is upward.
I happened upon this thread today while waiting for my newest Logos 5 resource, The Theocratic Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus, the Christ, in three volumes, was being "indexed." That took 20 minutes. Reading all these interesting posts, especially those by the Preterists, took much longer than that.
I personally believe that the work by George N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, is most helpful. I commend its careful study.
Peace, Jerome! *smile* Thank you for contributing to the "sharings" on this thread. You may want to share this post on FaithLife at https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity
... and ... then, again ... You may not! *smile* I also, with Bruce and others, received Peters' book today; however, I haven't had a chance to peruse it as of yet! Blessings!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
I have read this work by Peters at least three times through. I have read it aloud to my family twice through.
This is without question one of the greatest works on Bible prophecy ever written. Peters examines alternate viewpoints most carefully, and answers mistaken positions with grace and kindness.
I had come to the Logos Forums to try to learn how to submit corrections for typos I find in Logos 5 books and resources. But I saw this discussion on the rapture first, and made my brief comment.
I have now learned how to submit corrections to Logos. I have a pile of them to submit!
Peters is a long "read." It is worth every minute you can manage to give to it.
It is my belief after reading numerous authors on the subject (I have a large bookcase in my living room by my reading chair with a whole library of works on prophetic subjects), I find Peters to be the most helpful. He is not always correct--no human author is--but his lifetime of scholarly study sheds much light on many issues.
I often think to myself, if modern or contemporary authors on all sides could have the benefit of studying Peters thoroughly before commencing their writing on prophetic subjects, a lot of mistaken notions would be nipped in the bud.
You may recall that I am the author/editor of a major Logos resource, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, a book of extensive cross references to almost every verse in the Bible.
For a correction of the many misunderstandings found here, I would recommend "The Last Things" by George Eldon Ladd, which is available in Logos. That is my opinion. 'Nuff said.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
Peace, Jerome! *smile* Thanks for identifying yourself! Much-appreciated indeed!
I actually didn't remember you until you mentioned it; then, I remembered your post from "older" days ...
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/53608/391355.aspx#391355
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
I enjoyed reading the responses on this thread.
I must confess, it did get interesting.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
I've had Ladd's volume since it first came out and have read it carefully. It surely is a shorter work than Peters!
I have read this work by Peters at least three times through. I have read it aloud to my family twice through.
Jerome, thank you for posting the reference to this resource. I have downloaded a public domain copy of this and intend to take a look at it when I have time later this week.
At first glance, I see Propositions 58, 70, and 87 as suspect from a Biblical standpoint. I will be looking first at these portions to see what Biblical texts the author uses to support these propositions. If there are sound Biblical proofs here it may be a challenge to my view. But I suspect that there will not be. Either way, thanks for the reference [Y]
John, you are in for a real treat in Bible study! You have shown great insight in selecting Propositions 58, 70, and 87 for review.
I just checked those this morning using my new Logos 5 edition first received yesterday.
May I offer a study suggestion or two. (1) Read carefully and thoroughly. (2) Do look up the Bible references Peters gives (an advantage for the Logos software). (3) Make sure to study all his footnotes, as that is often where he puts the "meat" of his Bible exposition. (4) Though it at first seems a tedious process, when Peters refers to other "Propositions" where related discussions are to be found, consulting these is usually most helpful.
Blessings on you regardless of the outcome of your study!
First, I'll say that I have a good minister friend who holds to the preterist views, and I respect him greatly.
But this guy at the following web site makes some of the best arguments I've seen to support the futurist viewpoint. http://www.letusreason.org/proph19.htm
Here are just a few interesting points he makes. Irenaeus, who lived from 120-202 AD said that John's vision was toward the end of Domitian's reign, which would have put it after 70AD. Polycarp, who was actually a disciple of John, implied that the book of Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem. Also, he points out that a lot of the early church fathers and writings in the early 2nd century believed that the apocalypse was yet to come.
With that in mind, the preterist view was most likely invented by a Jesuit named Alcasar in the early 1500's to counter the Reformer's claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the Great Whore of Babylon.
Obviously, some of what Jesus was talking about in Matt. 24 happened in 70AD. The problem with that passage is that Jesus brought up the fact that the temple would be demolished, but his disciples asked about the end of the age, which is a different subject. So Jesus transitioned from talking about the subject that He brought up to the subject of the end of the age. Some preterists claim that the abomination of desolation was Antiochus Epiphanes, but his story was before Jesus. Plus, Jesus said, "
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory."
I haven't heard of that happening yet. Obviously not everything prophesied has happened.
About the argument that "harpazo" doesn't refer to going up, just read it in context. One of the main verses we get that idea from is 1 Thess. 4:17, which says that we will be caught up in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air.
Sorry. I'm done now. Like I said, there are a lot of preterists that I respect. And they have good arguments, too.
Edit: I didn't realize that there were more than one page. So if my post is redundant, I apologize. 
Let us remember that we are to talk about Logos's products on these forums - not theology.
Tom, I trust that if you have any possible reference to what I have posted anywhere above, you reconsider your statement.
Certainly I have been talking about the marvelous new resource I received yesterday from Logos Software, Peters' three-volume work on Bible prophecy, The Theocratic Kingdom.
May I kindly suggest you study that volume in detail in the manner I suggested above. You will be delighted at what you will learn from Scripture if you do!
Sorry. I repent.Let us remember that we are to talk about Logos's products on these forums - not theology.
John, you are in for a real treat in Bible study! You have shown great insight in selecting Propositions 58, 70, and 87 for review.
I already finished looking at Proposition 58. I found that the author had no scripture to back up his claim. Instead, he relies on other commentators opinions.
The claim is: Proposition 58 "Jesus, toward the close of his ministry, preached that the Kingdom was not nigh."
There is no scripture to back up this claim. The best that any commentator could do is to make an argument from silence, and even that is difficult because if the previous teaching of Jesus regarding timing were later to be changed, that would mean he had taught falsehood earlier.
At this point, There is no need for me to study this author further, as the rest of his teaching will be building upon his incorrect conclusion here.
With that in mind, the preterist view was most likely invented by a Jesuit named Alcasar in the early 1500's to counter the Reformer's claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the Great Whore of Babylon.
As a preterist, I can honestly say that this is one of the most frequently heard false statements about the preterist view.
These men were all preterists: Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 – 215), Origen (c. 184 – 254), Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 263 – 339). Just to name a few.
The reason that statements such as this can be so frequently repeated is that most people are not interested in learning the truth.
The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.
If that isn't a partial preterist view, then what is it?
As to your other points, R.C. Sprouls "Last days" is a good place to start. Available in this collection.
Sorry. I repent.Let us remember that we are to talk about Logos's products on these forums - not theology.
Don't forget the sackcloth and ashes. [;)]
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
Please, Guys and Gals! Please don't keep on persisting with cheap shots! OK?
If you want to debate and make your point, there is a place for that. Divine Soteriology (Blair! *smile*) has invited those who wish to debate ... https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity
Psalm 29:11
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
Lol. Nice use of a resource to make your post relevant. [:)]As to your other points, R.C. Sprouls "Last days" is a good place to start. Available in this collection.
And thanks for pointing those things out, by the way.
John, both you and I made fast work of Proposition 58 in Peters.
Yet Proposition 58 is abundantly proven from Scripture, starting with Matthew 21:43. It is even a fulfillment of explicit Bible prophecy found in Micah 5:3. Using my study resource available in Logos 5, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, you can find many additional Scripture passages given in the form of cross references which tie into this interesting theme. If you studied what Peters gives as Biblical proof, you will have noted he discusses in detail the interesting change in the nature and content of the later parables Jesus gave. Peters discusses each of the pertinent parables in detail. I noted with interest that Peters remarks about the testimony of a then well-known commentator on the parables of Christ who was stunned by the implications of one of the parables, and who changed his opinion as a result about issues pertaining to Bible prophecy. I think the author was Grenfeld or something similar. You'll see it when you read Peters carefully.
As for Peters relying on other commentators opinions, you have unwittingly missed the point. Peters throughout his volumes carefully cites the leading scholarship of his day and those before him who disagreed with him, showing they unguardedly at other points admitted the validity of evidence contrary to their own stated views, evidence which proves the validity of Peters' position. When you can get a presumed opponent of your position to solidly back your position on an important point, your opponent becomes a valuable witness to the validity of your position on that point. Peters often uses the inadvertent concessions of his opponents to good effect. I recall especially that Peters throughout his volumes points out the inconsistencies of Albert Barnes, one of the great commentators he frequently cites.
I invite you to actually read and study carefully study Proposition 70, the second Proposition you selected for study.
I carefully read Proposition 70 myself yesterday morning and found that is where the Biblical evidence is carefully set forth by Peters.
I urge anyone who has an interest in the broad subject of Bible prophecy to secure the Logos edition of Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom. I have been delighted so far with the quality of this digital edition.
I was afraid that having a digital edition of The Theocratic Kingdom would be impractical for reading such an extended text. But I have found already that having the text for reading on computer screen where I can adjust the size of the print is a great advantage for older eyes!
I have been reading Peters carefully and repeatedly since 1962. I have never found a single mention in his work of the Rapture, at least not using that term. The term does not occur in his extensive index. I seem to recall that the word may occur in a citation from another author cited by Peters, but I don't recall where. My next little test of Logos 5 software may be to see if I can find the word in a citation used by Peters. That will be an interesting search, if I can figure out how to do it.
It is my firm belief that no one, layman or scholar, has done their homework in the field of understanding Bible prophecy, particularly the Kingdom of God, who has not carefully read this important work by George N. H. Peters.
I know of one former Jehovah's Witness who decided to take a year or so to study the Bible independent of his Watchtower resources. He also learned of Peters' work, and as a result of these studies, realized that what he had former believed as a Jehovah's Witness regarding God's Kingdom was not in accord with Scripture. As a result he was converted to Christ. You can read Kevin Quick's testimony on the Internet.
Now I would perhaps be the last person on earth who would recommend any human author over the Scripture itself. I believe the truths discussed by Peters can indeed be learned from the Bible itself, if one were to study the subjects involved in the Bible using cross references. Yet even the Ethiopian in Acts 8 found it advantageous to have the help of Philip to understand Isaiah 53.
Now I would perhaps be the last person on earth who would recommend any human author over the Scripture itself. I believe the truths discussed by Peters can indeed be learned from the Bible itself, if one were to study the subjects involved in the Bible using cross references. Yet even the Ethiopian in Acts 8 found it advantageous to have the help of Philip to understand Isaiah 53.
I am happy to hear you say this. I was afraid you were placing Peters on a lofty pedestal with your high praise of his work. (I am often misunderstood by others for doing the same thing with other authors like Francis Schaeffer* or Norman Geisler.)
*It is a real bummer that the Works of Francis Schaeffer are not currently available in Logos. I have them but others should too.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Thank you, Super Tramp. I do like to commend resources I have found helpful. Just checking now, I do have the complete works of Francis Schaeffer and many works of Norman Geisler in my Logos 5 software. I have them in hard copy as well. Schaeffer to me is outstanding in that he foresaw very accurately back in the 1960s or 1970s where society was heading. In particular, he warned, as I recall, that we would no longer be able to coast on the fumes of a remaining culture of belief and respect for the Bible considered as the norm. He surely was right. Geisler, of course, is very good in the field of apologetics. I have benefited greatly from both these authors, and am thankful to have them in Logos 5 software too.
I just did a test run with Logos 5 software and searched all three volumes of Peters for the term "rapture." Zero results reported. I used another word to perform a similar search to be sure I was doing it right and came up with a great many results. So, thank you Logos, you confirmed that my memory was accurate regarding what is and what is not in Peters, in this instance anyway!
Please, Guys and Gals! Please don't keep on persisting with cheap shots! OK?
If you want to debate and make your point, there is a place for that. Divine Soteriology (Blair! *smile*) has invited those who wish to debate ... https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity
Not to belabor the point, Milford, but as you know and have posted elsewhere, Faithlife is practically useless for any extended discussion due to the unfortunate inclusion of a Twitter-like word limit that prevents participants from presenting a coherent progression of thought before being unceremoniously cut off in mid sent
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
ence. This annoyance keeps people from using Faithlife for the purpose it intended to serve. If Logos wants to push theological discussions to that forum, then it needs to be an actual FORUM. The current design does nothing to help draw users and keep them there. This is one reason, I suspect, that users keep using the Forum for such discussions, because participants are allowed to complete their thoug
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
ts without resorting to irritating workarounds.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
... that prevents participants from presenting a coherent progression of thought before being unceremoniously cut off in mid sent
Obviously a mid-tribber ... [:#]
ence. This annoyance keeps people from using Faithlife for the purpose it intended to serve. If Logos wants to push theological discussions to that forum, then it needs to be an actual FORUM. The current design does nothing to help draw users and keep them there. This is one reason, I suspect, that users keep using the Forum for such discussions, because participants are allowed to complete their thoug
ence. This annoyance keeps people from using Faithlife for the purpose it intended to serve. If Logos wants to push theological discussions to that forum, then it needs to be an actual FORUM. The current design does nothing to help draw users and keep them there. This is one reason, I suspect, that users keep using the Forum for such discussions, because participants are allowed to complete their thoug
Peace, David! You DO have a point, eh??? *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
You guys have nice and valid points. I was over there (FaithLife) and could not post an interesting letter from a friend.
I was talking to my friend about 1 John 2:1-2. Basically it's about "believers" repenting in prayer to Christ. He sent me a letter and I wasn't sure how to answer it. I don't think it has anything to do with theology-but its a mind cruncher.
Here's the letter:
You guys have nice and valid points. I was over there (FaithLife) and could not post an interesting letter from a friend.
I was talking to my friend about 1 John 2:1-2. Basically it's about "believers" repenting in prayer to Christ. He sent me a letter and I wasn't sure how to answer it. I don't think it has anything to do with theology-but its a mind cruncher.
“Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?” Jesus answered, “You do not know now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” Peter said to him, “You will never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no share with me.” Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet, but is entirely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.””
(John 13:3–10, NRSV)
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
Daniel! *smile* Psalm 29:11
I think you've been around long enough to know that such a post is really out of line.
This is not a debating forum.
What are you trying to accomplish by upsetting others who are trying to use Logos Bible Software to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ???
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Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
Thanks Milford for our reply.
I thought that the Post was harmless. I think I was just trying to find an answer to give to my friend so that we both can grow in Christ.
However, Peace. And I will repent.
Phil,
Thanks for your post. I will make a copy and place it on my cork board-that way I will not forget.
Peace also to you..
Oh, man...there is so much I want to say about this. But I'll limit myself here because of forum rules.
BTW, The word RAPTURE "harpazo" in the greek never gives any inclination of direction (up), but simply means "to be seized, taken hold of, taken advantage of,.. see Theological dictionary of the new testament & New international Dictionary of N.T. Theology. If "UP" was implied, then the Greek prefix/preposition "ana" or possibly (unlikely) "ek" would be used with "harpazo" to give it direction, but they are not used.
I say just this one thing. [:)] If I am standing on the ground, where are the clouds? [:O]
To Daniel and Josh! *smile* Thanks to both of you for your attitude!
... and your forbearance!
The Logos Forums are so very important to so many people and are so very helpful in so many respects.
Of course we all have strong and passionate feelings about many things, and it's hard to be always "cool," eh???
May God help us show His Love to one another! *smile*
Peace!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
I invite you to actually read and study carefully study Proposition 70, the second Proposition you selected for study.
Ok Jerome, I will take a look at Prop 70. Once again, I will be looking for solid Biblical proof of the assertion. I did not find it for Prop 58.
As far as the parables and the Kingdom, James Stuart Russels "Parousia" (not available on Logos) is the best I have read, and I have read a lot.
I say just this one thing.If I am standing on the ground, where are the clouds?
Surely that would depend on how you define "ground" - if you were standing on the top of a mountain then they would more than likely be below you [;)]
I say just this one thing.Surely that would depend on how you define "ground" - if you were standing on the top of a mountain then they would more than likely be below you
Perhaps, if you were in the Himalayas.
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
I say just this one thing.Surely that would depend on how you define "ground" - if you were standing on the top of a mountain then they would more than likely be below you
Perhaps, if you were in the Himalayas.
Rapture free zone. [:D]
ence. This annoyance keeps people from using Faithlife for the purpose it intended to serve. If Logos wants to push theological discussions to that forum, then it needs to be an actual FORUM. The current design does nothing to help draw users and keep them there. This is one reason, I suspect, that users keep using the Forum for such discussions, because participants are allowed to complete their thoug
ence. This annoyance keeps people from using Faithlife for the purpose it intended to serve. If Logos wants to push theological discussions to that forum, then it needs to be an actual FORUM. The current design does nothing to help draw users and keep them there. This is one reason, I suspect, that users keep using the Forum for such discussions, because participants are allowed to complete their thoug
Peace, David! You DO have a point, eh??? *smile*
Yes, I agree.
Bohuslav
I invite you to actually read and study carefully study Proposition 70, the second Proposition you selected for study.
Ok Jerome, I will take a look at Prop 70. Once again, I will be looking for solid Biblical proof of the assertion. I did not find it for Prop 58.
As far as the parables and the Kingdom, James Stuart Russels "Parousia" (not available on Logos) is the best I have read, and I have read a lot.
Thank you, John, for your willingness to further pursue your study of Peters. I trust that in the long run it will prove rewarding.