New Policy (mine): No Purchase Download, Refund and Replace with Kindle Version

I think as long as I've had a Logos mobile app, downloading a recent purchase is never a sure thing. I purchased yesterday, ready to read today. No can do. Not listed in the mobile's library. Wait, play around, wait ... 30 min ... done.

Yes: resource is mobile

Yes: ios web enabled

Yes: Loaded Noet clean. Full library display, no recent purchases.

No: Not going to remember special text commands to force a server read

And yes: my Kindle delivers in seconds. For the last few years.

Finally, no, Kevin, I'm not going to start a new thread.

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Comments

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

Hi Denise,

Thank you for (already) creating a new thread.

What is the resource you purchased, and have you searched the Noet library for that resource?

Into Grace

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870184#Comment_870184

Hi Denise,

Have you tried restarting the Logos app? I've had to do this in the past to access new purchases.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870185#Comment_870185

Hi Denise,

Have you tried restarting the Logos app? I've had to do this in the past to access new purchases.

She's not asking for help in fixing it.

She's stating that from now on, if she buys a book to read and it doesn't download, she's going to call and get a refund, then buy it on Kindle.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870185#Comment_870185

Hi Denise,

Have you tried restarting the Logos app? I've had to do this in the past to access new purchases.

Into Grace,

Thanks for trying to help.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870195#Comment_870195

Hi Denise,

Have you tried restarting the Logos app? I've had to do this in the past to access new purchases.

She's not asking for help in fixing it.

She's stating that from now on, if she buys a book to read and it doesn't download, she's going to call and get a refund, then buy it on Kindle.

Hi Doc B,

We're waiting for Denise herself to say she's not asking for help or is not interested in a fix.

Is it not true that Denise can speak for herself?

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870210#Comment_870210

Hi Denise,

Which resource did you purchase that you can't find in your Noet library?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870212#Comment_870212

Into Grace .. thank you for the suggestion, but in my text, I noted a clean start (I don't keep apps in background).

And Kevin, thank you for the follow-up, but this is pretty routine, not just me. I can remember a long list of title keywords, trying to see if a purchase is in my library ... and 4 of your apps.

You've given others guidance on trying to get the app to show a purchase. It's been an early attribute of the design. That, plus the fact that I have to remember the title words and type it in, since, if indeed the purchase does show, it's buried deep in the library. Kindle displays recent purchases along with recent reading ...very efficient.

I recognize your staffing is probably hit and miss. And maybe complaints that purchases can't be read seem unfair. But ignoring the big packages, buying a book is in the pleasure of reading, not searching for it.

And Doc was correct ... no need for a 'case', some text to type in, a hidden button. No anger, just frustration. New policy.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870265#Comment_870265

Which resource did you purchase that you can't find in your Noet library?

I'm curious - do you purchase books without knowing what they are about or remembering their titles?

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870265#Comment_870265

. That, plus the fact that I have to remember the title words and type it in, since, if indeed the purchase does show, it's buried deep in the library. Kindle displays recent purchases along with recent reading ...very efficient.

The Faithlife apps do something similar if you have the Library set to "sort by recent"

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870272#Comment_870272

Graham, maybe. Clicking back between 'recent' and 'title' would sometimes get the app to pull a purchase. For me, the 'recent' is maybe 20-30 resources before the full library ... and the purchase is in the full library.

I'm just guessing they're kludging the apps onto the server for the desktop. Though the desktop can often demand considerable patience to get a purchase.

I also purchase from Accordance and Olivetree ... both are pretty snappy in presenting your purchase. But Kindle nails it ... you can watch them go thru their routine and time it ... usually about 10 seconds.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870267#Comment_870267

Yes, Kevin I do not remember titles .... just smiling but in a given day, I move across maybe 4 or 5 books. And purchases, I don't pull until I enable the wifi, sometimes days later, depending on what I'm working on.

The resource in question this time had graveyard and montanism or montanist in the title. Just to illustrate. But this is repetitive issue, trying to get purchases into a Logos app. Check your other replies to other users on the same issue ... and your solution.

And again, this is all chit chat ... no offense.

EDIT: Gravestones ... not graveyard. With the app-noship, I check the Logos email. And this title is not Kindle-ized, so I'll wait for the Bible Collection to ship and read it on the desktop.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870294#Comment_870294

Graham, maybe. Clicking back between 'recent' and 'title' would sometimes get the app to pull a purchase. For me, the 'recent' is maybe 20-30 resources before the full library ... and the purchase is in the full library.

I notice if you have the iOS app open already, it takes a while for it to update the library list, but if you open it after the purchase, the library list updates immediately.

On an unrelated note, are you running a beta, Graham? My iPad app doesn't show rating stars in the library's (Portrait) view.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870298#Comment_870298

Graham, maybe. Clicking back between 'recent' and 'title' would sometimes get the app to pull a purchase. For me, the 'recent' is maybe 20-30 resources before the full library ... and the purchase is in the full library.

I notice if you have the iOS app open already, it takes a while for it to update the library list, but if you open it after the purchase, the library list updates immediately.

I have just bought something to see what happened.

After placing the purchase I went back into the Bible app and opened the library. The resource wasn't there but the sync wheel was spinning. A couple of seconds later there was an indication that the library was being updated and then the resource appeared at the top as shown below

Denise - I seem to remember from earlier discussions that mostly you have your apps offline. If that is the case, I wonder if that is affecting anything here? (EDIT: Sorry Denise, I've just seen that you refer to that above. I wonder if that is relevant at all. If "recent" shows all the resources you have been reading recently then it is understandable that a "recent" purchase of a few days ago would be further down the list)

On an unrelated note, are you running a beta, Graham? My iPad app doesn't show rating stars in the library's (Portrait) view.

Yes - but I see the ratings stars on non-beta versions as well. I'd be interested to see a screenshot of what you are describing - but ideally in a separate thread to not derail this one.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870300#Comment_870300

Yes, Graham, the wifi is the number 1 battery eater-upper, so for apps that like to touch base constantly, they don't get wifi access until I need something ... eg weather, books, etc.

In this specific instance, I tried loading Noet wifi off, then turn on (if the app watches the turn-on, some do), or loading Noet with wifi already on. Since Noet does nothing in either case, it's DOA for new books.

Regarding 'recent', I have no idea what their algorythm is. It's also a pain on the desktop, especially if there's a large number of updates. Why they can't reveal/use a purchase datestamp, I'll never know. People often ask for it.

The whole mindset in their designs seems to favor small libraries and infrequent purchases.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870265#Comment_870265

We're waiting for Denise herself to say she's not asking for help or is not interested in a fix.

And Doc was correct ... no need for a 'case', some text to type in, a hidden button. No anger, just frustration. New policy.

I guess I'm not as dumb as I look.

[H]

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870297#Comment_870297

Yes, Kevin I do not remember titles .... just smiling but in a given day, I move across maybe 4 or 5 books. And purchases, I don't pull until I enable the wifi, sometimes days later, depending on what I'm working on.

The resource in question this time had graveyard and montanism or montanist in the title. Just to illustrate. But this is repetitive issue, trying to get purchases into a Logos app. Check your other replies to other users on the same issue ... and your solution.

And again, this is all chit chat ... no offense.

EDIT: Gravestones ... not graveyard. With the app-noship, I check the Logos email. And this title is not Kindle-ized, so I'll wait for the Bible Collection to ship and read it on the desktop.

Thanks Denise,

I don't see a problem here that Faithlife can fix. Please post again if an actual issue arises.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870308#Comment_870308

The whole mindset in their designs seems to favor small libraries and infrequent purchases.

I always have my iPhone sorted by "Recent". I've noticed that if I buy several books, only one or two will show up sorted at the top of "Recents". The rest will be lost in the library somewhere. Personally, I don't mind this behaviour, as it's rare I can't remember the name of a resource that I want to read and have recently bought.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870357#Comment_870357

I don't see a problem here that Faithlife can fix. Please post again if an actual issue arises.

Well, we both agree, Kevin ... ergo my new policy. Enjoy your Christmas.

Remembering titles might be age. Right now, I'm renting a DSS apocalypic book, Vermes' Jesus, one on what caused the end of the bronze age, the geology of southern California, hebrew shifts by time, and a volume on ancient chamomile. None from Logos and I can't remember a single title.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870361#Comment_870361

I never set a recent purchase from the Logos store at the top of my list when it is sorted by recent but if I have picked up a free book from Vyrso store it always shows up at the top of my list.

Though not easily definable by empirical data there is a definite problem here, whether it be a bug or a design choice but I've never usually have the time to report it when it does occur. But this is a real concern Denise. Stick to your guns and don't let anyone on these forums tell you it's not a problem, because it is real.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870379#Comment_870379

don't let anyone on these forums tell you it's not a problem

It is a real problem, but with each user, the cause is unknown. Without more diagnostics, we won't know why it is happening.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870376#Comment_870376

I don't see a problem here that Faithlife can fix. Please post again if an actual issue arises.

Well, we both agree, Kevin ... ergo my new policy. Enjoy your Christmas.

Remembering titles might be age. Right now, I'm renting a DSS apocalypic book, Vermes' Jesus, one on what caused the end of the bronze age, the geology of southern California, hebrew shifts by time, and a volume on ancient chamomile. None from Logos and I can't remember a single title.

If you can clearly explain what problem you are seeing, that would be swell. I'm not sure at this point if you are unwilling or unable to do so, or if you just enjoy wasting others' time...?

If you don't know the name of the resource you bought, how do you know it's not available in your library?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870394#Comment_870394

Kevin, I can't see how I wasted anyone's time ... I was pretty clear ... Doc seems to have interpreted correctly.

I'm not sure what I could give you, that you'd want ... the exact title of the book? 'Prophets and Gravestones: An Imaginative History of Montanists and Other Early Christians' And in my first post, I indicated the resource was mobile-aware ... when I bought it.

Once again, you don't need to pursue, and once again, enjoy your upcoming holidays. I will be.

EDIT: updated to your no-turkey version (Noet latest) to force a library read. After: 1st image Recent (also toggled, which sometimes helps), and 2nd image using a title keyword.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870397#Comment_870397

Thanks Denise,

Let me guess - you have hundreds (if not thousands) of resources downloaded locally?

If so, for every new app install, those resources need to download again and this might take many hours/days to complete. Unless/until you allow those downloads to complete, the library won't index and your new resource(s) won't be found. "Forcing a library read" is not something I've heard before (except when you previously mentioned it in this thread). There isn't a "force a library read". There is installing the app, waiting for the library to load (for hours or possibly days in your case), then waiting for the library to index.

If you make it a practice to go online for a moment and then back offline (expecting your newly purchased book to simply pop up like it does on your Kindle), the library loading/indexing process with never complete and you will consistently and perpetually have problems with any/all of our mobile apps - forever - unless/until you are willing to actually stay online long enough for the process to complete.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870428#Comment_870428

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870428#Comment_870428

To continue the conversation,

- no, the downloaded resources are shown as above, plus the 2nd Illiad volume (can't delete the Iliad of course)

- no I haven't re-installed for many moons, and the resources shown were downloaded one at a time (above comment was the pre-Thanksgiving update)

And I do make a practice to wifi-in for purchases, as I also do for Logos. Then wifi-off for several weeks. So, basically, you're hinting the kindle version may be the more reliable resource choice.

OT: For any Logosians in similar straits, I recently got the Kindle Oasis (already have a PaperWhite and a Voyager). If you read the reviews, the guys are having apoplexy over the price. But for a favorite female reader in your life, it's oh so good. Feather-light, very purse-able, and interesting leather-feel case that charges the unit. Absolutely great.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870445#Comment_870445

Have you tried turning wifi on (and leaving it on), then restarting Noet and waiting for a few hours?

If you don't need library-wide search capability, tagging, note/highlight syncing, guides, lookup, text comparison, etc., etc..., yeah - I'm sure Kindle resources are fine... Kindle devices don't need to index anything.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870448#Comment_870448

Ok, since no turkeys suffered during the last update, I let it sit for hours (wifi on, load Noet, sit for hours). I'll plug it in.

I don't think Noet generally does those things you listed, at least none I ever tried. So, ignoring the loss on the Logos desktop (search, tagging, guides, text comparison, etc), Kindle will be a good choice.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870451#Comment_870451

Okie dokie. 4 hours sounds like a few hours. I took 2 screens ... the online library with key word 'grave', and the downloaded one (11 resources).

I think we better close up the thread, with the app not sufficiently robust to deliver a purchased book.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870478#Comment_870478

There's little question that this is a problem. It happens to me with some regularity. Some percent of the time "rebuild index" works. Some percent of the time waiting a day or two works. And some percent of the time I have to call FL because the resource should be available on mobile but hasn't been properly marked as such in their internal systems. Once that is corrected, the resource shows up.

A related frustration is when pre-pub's become available first on the desktop and then some number of days later on mobile. It is far more common for me that I want to read pre-pub's on my iPad than that I want to interact with them in the desktop app. Since these resources are advertised as available for mobile, it seems to me improper that FL releases the resource *and charges me for it* but I can't access it on mobile. This happened most recently with the release of the HB101 mobile ed course. It was close to a week before it was available on my iPad. IMO, FL ought to either: a) not release such resources until they're ready to be available to both desktop and mobile; or b) not charge me until it's available on mobile.

Donnie

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870564#Comment_870564

A related frustration is when pre-pub's become available first on the desktop and then some number of days later on mobile. It is far more common for me that I want to read pre-pub's on my iPad than that I want to interact with them in the desktop app. Since these resources are advertised as available for mobile, it seems to me improper that FL releases the resource *and charges me for it* but I can't access it on mobile. This happened most recently with the release of the HB101 mobile ed course. It was close to a week before it was available on my iPad. IMO, FL ought to either: a) not release such resources until they're ready to be available to both desktop and mobile; or b) not charge me until it's available on mobile.

It doesn't help, but the reason for that is that mobile resources are grouped and released weekly. That's different from the desktop, because on the desktop indexing happens locally for just the resources you own, whilst on mobile indexing happens on the Logos server for the entire library of 40,000-50,000 resources. That's too processor intensive to be run multiple times per day (or perhaps even multiple times per week), so mobile resources are queued and added in bulk.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870591#Comment_870591

It doesn't help, but the reason for that is that mobile resources are grouped and released weekly.

Resources are shipped daily to the mobile apps.

This happened most recently with the release of the HB101 mobile ed course. It was close to a week before it was available on my iPad.

There was an error in resource publishing that delayed this particular resource for three days. This was an unusually lengthy delay and we apologise for the inconvenience in accessing your new resources promptly.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870478#Comment_870478

Okie dokie. 4 hours sounds like a few hours. I took 2 screens ... the online library with key word 'grave', and the downloaded one (11 resources).

I think we better close up the thread, with the app not sufficiently robust to deliver a purchased book.

Hi Denise,

You already want to close the thread? It's taken a lot of back and forth just to get the minimum basic information from you (please see https://community.logos.com/forums/t/118697.aspx for how to post a good bug report).

I had really hoped you were interested in a solution this time. If your first post had been similar to the following, this thread would probably have only two posts (although, with your latest one there's a likely third post):

1) Denise: "I purchased a resource (https://www.logos.com/product/43293/prophets-and-gravestones-an-imaginative-history-of-montanists-and-other-early-christians) and it doesn't appear in my library. I'm using the Noet app and I've gone online and restarted the app to give it enough time to sync. I'm usually offline for weeks at a time, except when I make a purchase. Screenshots attached - any suggestions?"

2) Kevin: "We're sorry you're seeing this issue. Staying offline for weeks at a time is not recommended as when you finally do go online the app needs to catch up with things that might have changed - notes/highlights, resource updates, etc. It's good practice to go online at least once a week for a few minutes. Since Noet doesn't support "rebuild index" (which reindexes the library so that all available books appear in the Library panel), please use "Report a Problem" under the Help menu, and then perform a fresh install of the app. Also, make sure you stay online for an hour or two afterwards and then verify if the resource is there. If not please let us know. Also note that purchased resources do not automatically download locally."

And now, here's your reply:

Denise: "I think we better close up the thread, with the app not sufficiently robust to deliver a purchased book."

We love it when customers actually want a solution, and in the past if customers run into a "resource not appearing" issue, they ask us about it and we help them. I can't remember a single instance where we've worked with a customer that had a mobile-enabled resource download issue, and then we left that customer in a position where the resource was still not available on mobile.

On the other hand, there's always a first time. Sadly, it seems you've already decided the app isn't robust because it didn't work for you one time and so you've made a blanket generalization from a specific instance.

As always, it's up to you if you actually want a solution or if you think this thread is just too much to bother with now. I'm hoping the former.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870591#Comment_870591

for the entire library of 40,000-50,000 resources.

Hi Mark,

We've got well over 100,000 resources now.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870451#Comment_870451

I don't think Noet generally does those things you listed, at least none I ever tried. So, ignoring the loss on the Logos desktop (search, tagging, guides, text comparison, etc), Kindle will be a good choice.

True, but the Logos and Verbum mobile apps support search, tagging, guides, text comparison, etc.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870644#Comment_870644

I don't think Noet generally does those things you listed, at least none I ever tried. So, ignoring the loss on the Logos desktop (search, tagging, guides, text comparison, etc), Kindle will be a good choice.

True, but the Logos and Verbum mobile apps support search, tagging, guides, text comparison, etc.

Kevin, I'm grateful for all you do to develop and support the (FREE) mobile apps. Thank you for not merely doing development, but also taking the time to discuss issues with your customers!

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870592#Comment_870592

It doesn't help, but the reason for that is that mobile resources are grouped and released weekly.

Resources are shipped daily to the mobile apps.

Sorry. I'd mis-remembered this statement from Bob:

we don't do a local index on mobile devices. (Yet. And maybe never. But that's a whole technical problem itself.) So we have to search the whole catalog on the server, and that whole catalog takes nearly 24 hours to index. But at least it only needs to be reindexed when we create a new resource, so no more than once a day. Which just barely works.

I'd remembered that as you not being able to do a daily index, whereas Bob was saying you can just about do a daily index.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870658#Comment_870658

We made some server improvements since that statement was posted (to get the index time under 24 hours, so that resources don't (typically) experience multi-day delays before being released on mobile).

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870629#Comment_870629

Petah, I'm sure you're not so naive to think the app is (FREE). Bob funded it to drive more sales (money from people's credit cards) ... and then later complained app'ers were not such avid book buyers (maybe now they are, with app users overwhelming the Faithlife coffers).

Kevin, I enjoy the holiday back-and-forth but did point out the problem was a re-occurring one over years, and among users. In between the app design and the server, purchases can get lost. And since I'm confident the app guys are both talented and have their pride, the cause is likely a compromise somewhere.

At best you could say send an error report (app's not reporting problem), a text command, or re-install the app ... which I initially noted 'not'. Better to skip the trials of the (FREE) app.

But I know you're smiling ... not to worry.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870684#Comment_870684

Kevin, I enjoy the holiday back-and-forth but did point out the problem was a re-occurring one over years, and among users. In between the app design and the server, purchases can get lost. And since I'm confident the app guys are both talented and have their pride, the cause is likely a compromise somewhere.

At best you could say send an error report (app's not reporting problem), a text command, or re-install the app ... which I initially noted 'not'. Better to skip the trials of the (FREE) app.

But I know you're smiling ... not to worry.

Thanks Denise,

I'll make a notation on your account that this situation has been resolved to your satisfaction. It's unfortunate - I really had hope this time that you might choose to work with us instead of against us.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870684#Comment_870684

Petah, I'm sure you're not so naive to think the app is (FREE).

Having made a few free Christian apps (containing no ads or in-app purchases, and generating no income), I am aware of development costs (which come out of my pocket).

Not everything is motivated by profit or some bottom line. For example, many developers contribute to open software, and I don't mind giving away the source code for the apps (although I'm not proud of my inexperience).

I understand you don't think FL's app is free, that our purchases subsidise its costs, and that its purpose is to generate more revenue, but I am confident that there are mobile-only customers who never made a purchase, yet are blessed by one of FL's free apps.

I really am sorry that you're not happy with FL's mobile app. But I don't think many of us could make something better, or even equal to it.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870722#Comment_870722

Petah,

Thanks for sharing your app links and code.

I'm not sure exactly how many thousands of customers use our free apps (without a purchase) but it is encouraging to know that they are indeed freely available.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870564#Comment_870564

There's little question that this is a problem. It happens to me with some regularity. Some percent of the time "rebuild index" works. Some percent of the time waiting a day or two works. And some percent of the time I have to call FL because the resource should be available on mobile but hasn't been properly marked as such in their internal systems. Once that is corrected, the resource shows up.

Donnie,

If you would, please create a new post about these three issues with a bit more detail. Two of them appear server related, but we'd like to learn more and nail these problems down.

We value hearing from customers who desire a solution and are willing to work with us to help improve our apps.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/870772#Comment_870772

If you would, please create a new post about these three issues with a bit more detail. Two of them appear server related, but we'd like to learn more and nail these problems down.

We value hearing from customers who desire a solution and are willing to work with us to help improve our apps.

If I have the opportunity to, I will. I'm buying very few resources these days - just don't have the time or need for more.

Donnie