Theology/Denomination Tags
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
...I never heard the term "Campbellite" nor of a pejorative sense to "Stone-Campbell" until these forums...
While I don't think the term "Campbellite" is as common as it once was, I've both heard and (more often) read it used by those who have negative view of the churches of Christ (for examples, just Google "Campbellite heresy"). My sense is that it was actually fairly common in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I've never thought of the term "Stone-Campbell Movement" as being pejorative. For what it's worth, the congregations I grew up in consistently talked about the "Restoration Movement", and never used the term "Stone-Campbell Movement". My guess is that some within the churches of Christ who are unfamiliar the historical use of the term "Stone-Campbell" may react to it as a denominational label similar to "Lutheran" (even though I've never heard it used in that way).
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EastTN said:MJ. Smith said:
...I never heard the term "Campbellite" nor of a pejorative sense to "Stone-Campbell" until these forums...
While I don't think the term "Campbellite" is as common as it once was, I've both heard and (more often) read it used by those who have negative view of the churches of Christ (for examples, just Google "Campbellite heresy"). My sense is that it was actually fairly common in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I've never thought of the term "Stone-Campbell Movement" as being pejorative. For what it's worth, the congregations I grew up in consistently talked about the "Restoration Movement", and never used the term "Stone-Campbell Movement". My guess is that some within the churches of Christ who are unfamiliar the historical use of the term "Stone-Campbell" may react to it as a denominational label similar to "Lutheran" (even though I've never heard it used in that way).
Thats probably true of any tradition though as well. I googled SBC Heresy and found way more stuff than I can talk about here, from Me too stuff, to social gospel, to gender issues, and issues of sexual identity. Plus (accurate) accusations that the politics of Trump are more important in some (not all) spheres than Jesus.
Some of these things are accurate. Some of the accurate things are right, and some the accurate things are wrong, and some things are wildly off base and not accurate. Which I think covers every possible position lol. People from all sides calling each other heretics over things like the trail of blood. Do I agree? Nope. But neither are they in heresy. Its wearying. Everyone wants to divide over everything. While I just want to preach Jesus.
I hear the criticism, I evaluate it (EG Beth Moore's complaints about complimentarianism vs egalitarianism), compare her accusations against scripture, and adjust if need be, or reject the criticism if need be. Eat the wheat, toss out the chaff.
In the essentials Unity, in the non essentials liberty, and in all things charity. ~St Augustine.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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For clarification as I know it.... Alexandar Campbell was never a member of the Church of Christ. He is accredited with studying himself out of "denominationalism" (whatever that means) and then became a member of the 1st Christian Church. He did believe in baptism as being necessary and he was baptized by a deacon of the Presbyterian Church and then he baptized the deacon.
As to the musical instruments side of things ..... There was ruse in the Church of Christ about m.i. in which people chose sides and had many public debates about it around 1900. In 1906, the Church of Christ split with one side using m.i. in worship and the other side denouncing such practice. The group that used m.i. in worship changed their name to 1st Christian Church. And some were called "Disciples of Christ" which was another splinter of the 1st Christian Church.
Today, there are a group calling themselves "Church of Christ" that do us m.i. in worship. Because of this, they only add confusion to the name of "Church of Christ". But they are not in fellowship with the Church of Christ known as the mainstream.
There are other splinters of the Church of Christ - Women leaders, Non-Instutional, Mainstream, Worship on any day of the week to name a few. And then there is the Mainstream. The Mainstream are where the "splinters" came from.
In 33 AD there was only one church Jesus built. In Acts 2:47 it says, “praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.” Which proves the church that Jesus build, existed in 33 AD. That church was not called by any denominational names around today.
This information is not available in the books and resources in the Logos Library.... not even for purchase. I wish it were....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
In 1906, the Church of Christ split with one side using m.i. in worship and the other side denouncing such practice. The group that used m.i. in worship changed their name to 1st Christian Church.
Untrue, most Church of Christ (Standard Publishing) use musical instruments. The "1st" in 1st Christian Church (or any denomination) refers to the historical first church of that denomination established in the town. [Christian Scientists are the clearest example of this convention]. The first split I reocgnize happened a bit later ... several dates have been proposed but the split was independent Christian Church/Church of Christ on one side and Christian Church/Disciples of Christ on the other. My Grandfather went to seminary as this split was in progress ... the seminary he attended ended up on the Disciples of Christ side while he remained on the Church of Christ side. This book
which is in Logos, gives the major causes of the split as:
- theological modernism
- ecumenical movement
- open membership
I was taught congregational independence was also a major point of disagreement. I was also taught 1926-7 as the date of the split. I've seen dates from this as the earliest to 1971 as the latest.
As an aside I was also taught of the foundational role of John Locke in Campbell's thinking. As an aside, I learned something fascinating in Dunnavant - fascinating as my great-great-grandfather on my maternal side was into founding abolitionist seminary in Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin include my alma mater and the University of Chicago. [quote]
The period that extends from the founding of the University of Chicago and the publication of J. W. McGarvey’s New Commentary on Acts to H. L. Willett’s retirement from the University of Chicago was marked by the encounter between the developing indigenous ecclesiastical tradition of the Stone-Campbell Movement and the incursion of higher criticism from the academic world. The conflict was embodied in McGarvey and the College of the Bible, on the one hand, and Willett and the Disciples Divinity House of the University of Chicago, on the other. During this period the division between Disciples and the Churches of Christ was largely completed. The end of this period was marked by the tensions that would eventuate in the split between Disciples and the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ.
M. Eugene Boring, “Bible, Interpretation of The,” in The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement: Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, Churches of Christ, ed. Douglas A. Foster et al. (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2004), 85.
I suspect some splits may be regional - South Central Washington and North Central Oregon were likely insulated from Southern/Northern disputes. I knew Disciples of Christ and Christian Church only as names in more urban areas. Our major urban areas had populations of 34,000 and 9,000 in 1950 ... less when these splits occurred.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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First, I'd like to endorse this book. It's a great resource on the history of the Restoration Movement. One of its advantages as a historical work is that it has contributors from more than one of the branches of the movement. While I might quibble with an entry here or there, overall, I've found it to be quite even-handed.
MJ. Smith said:Dunnavant, Douglas Allen; Foster, Anthony L. (2004). The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement: Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, Churches of Christ. Wm. B. Eerdmans. ISBN 0-8028-3898-7.
One source of confusion in all this is that the terms "Christian Church" and "Churches of Christ" are both used by more than one branch of the Restoration movement. Another is that there have been multiple splits. I believe xnman and MJ may be talking about different splits.
My sense is that multiple factors went into the first split which developed in the late 1800s between the Churches of Christ and the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). A major factor was disagreement about organizational structures above the congregational level, specifically missionary societies and conventions. Instrumental music was a factor as well. Some of it was likely cultural - as I recall, congregations in more affluent areas of the country were more likely to adopt pianos and organs, and congregations that became part of the Christian Churches tended to be more Northern and urban while congregations that became churches of Christ tended to be more rural and Southern. (I've seen the term "non-instrument churches of Christ" sometimes used to distinguish this group from the "Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ," which is a different branch of the movement.) A date of 1906 is often placed on this split, because that year there was a federal census that listed the two groups as separate denominations for the first time. I think this is the split xnman is talking about.
I believe 1926/1927 was when the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ split off from the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) with the development of the North American Christian Convention. That's the split that was driven by the three factors MJ identifies. The Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ were the more conservative branch of that split. Setting aside membership in the convention and the question of instrumental music, my sense is that today most Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ congregations are theologically more similar to the non-instrumental churches of Christ than they are to the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). I think this is the split MJ is talking about.
Anyway, I hope this helps. The history of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement is a confusing topic.
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EastTN said:
Anyway, I hope this helps. The history of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement is a confusing topic.
This makes sense ... members of my family through whom I learned the history would not have consider census data as a relevant marker of a division as the standard answer as to number of theological "flavors" in "like-minded" was normally set at around 27.
The size of the towns the 4 churches I knew the history of directly, one was too small to find in the 1930 Census data, the others are listed in 1930 as having populations of 84 (my home), 459 (the female preacher who was sister to our post master), and 2330 (shopping center and a non-instrumental church we would visit on special occasions). In 1937 or 8, my preacher grandfather had nearly 500 people turn out for his funeral in a church that holds at best around 100 (built by my Irish Catholic great-great-grandfather with the help of my Finnish Lutheran (pietist) great-grandfather). These two also built a Catholic Church and a Finnish Lutheran Church ... 3 churches in a town of 84. Not bad ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
I'm not trying to push Church of Christ above others.... Just would like it included... which as of now... it is not.
I just noticed not only are several books included in the bookstore but
[quote]Disciples of Christ member: A member of a Disciples of Christ (otherwise known as “The Christian Church”) church. This denomination finds it’s roots in the Stone-Campbell movement.
Jessica Parks, Notable People Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2021).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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EastTN said:
... The history of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement is a confusing topic.
As abondservant noted above, "this project is about better identifying the theological affiliation of existing books."
So, yes, it's a confusing topic, and it's hard dipping in as an outsider. If those of you who understand the situation much better are able to take a look at the spreadsheet, use the filter in column H to find the 75 people listed as "Restoration Movement", with no further refinement, and indicate as far as possible which branch they are in, then that would be really helpful. I'll gladly update the spreadsheet. If you were also able to check the other 49 people listed under "Restoration Movement", using the filter in column G, then that would be even more greatly appreciated.
Since this recent discussion started, I've added Alexander Campbell, but as I started checking others, I was reminded of how hard it is to tell from church websites and other information which branches people and churches are in. Inside knowledge may be required.
Here's the latest spreadsheet, in case it has got lost in the discussion (pre-filtered for "Restoration Movement" and now including Alexander Campbell): Denominations and Theology 2023.xlsm
(NB: For some reason this file is uploading as a .docx file, rather than the .xlsm file that it really is, so you may need to remove the final .docx from the file name to open it. If anyone knows why this is happening when I use the "Insert Image from Amber" function, I'll happily fix it.)
The Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance idea builds on this project. To vote for it, go to feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
Or, to find out more, go to community.logos.com/forums/t/208162.aspx
Thanks.
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Great discussion.... Thanks to all...
Untrue??? Really? In all this I do believe the bible is the best historical book ever written... And I'm ok siding with it. And the church that Jesus started existed in 33 AD as Acts 2:47 so states ("... and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved") and that church was called Church of Christ per Paul in Rom 16:16.
Notice something.... That church knew how to worship. That church knew how to be organized. That church knew it's purpose. All because of the teachings of the apostles - Eph 2:20.
And back then (33 AD thru 100 AD) I don't find the disciples worshipping in other "churches"... So what changed? Did the church change or did the people change it?
Now given that bit of information, from the greatest historical book ever written, then other man made "churches" came from that one branch, simply because that was the only "church" in town. I know, I know.... there were the Pharisees and the Sadducees and such... but they did not worship with the disciples. The disciples worshipped in the church that Jesus built.
--- One era that is cause of lots of confusion is: The ara of 100 AD - 300 AD as there is nothing to support man's subjective ideas of that era. I know there are letters written by some men... but the dates, from what I find is subjective and gives confusion to the issue. ----
Another era that causes confusion is: Most people want to be right and therefore try to prove themselves right instead of letting the evidence prove what is right. Logical thinkers follow the evidence wherever it leads them.
But note this: Jesus promised nothing would stand against the church that He built, Mat 16:18... And I believe that promise...
Which then verifies that the church Jesus built is still around today and worship like they did in 33 AD and is organized like they were in 33 AD all because we have the same teachings (bible) as they did... Eph 2:20. That church is the Church of Christ. I don't say "Mainstream" but that is what it is.
Now... Most of the Churches of Christ do not use m.i. in its worship, simply because they didn't in the 1st century. Yes, as I admitted before, there are some Church of Christ that do us m.i. in worship, but they are not the Mainstream (which is the majority). There is a book that was published by 20th Century Publishing, that listed all known churches of Christ that will verify this. It's not in Logos books.....
And there is a religious group known as 1st Christian Church which did start in 1906... and was a major split from the Mainstream Church of Christ. This caused much grief in both "churches" at the time because families were split because of it. I have studied some of the debates that went on for my own learning about the issues then.
As I stated... today there are "Mainstream" Church of Christ, M.I. Church of Christ, Non-Institutional Church of Christ, Women Leaders Church of Christ, One Cup Church of Christ... that I know of and have verified.
With respect, I liken it to Catholics, Baptist, or any other group... they all have "splintered" and have different teachings in their ranks today.
Bottom line... It is not true to say that the majority of churches that call themselves Church of Christ use m.i. in their worship.
In 1999, I did a study of "churches", then I found there were 38,000 different bodies calling themselves a "church" of some kind. My interest then was when did all these "churches" start. I plan on furthering that study to what they believe.... and I've been wanting to make a PB of that study for Logos... but I continually run out of daylight....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Historical calendar observation is 14 Nissan 33 CE being a Saturday (Sabbath):
Hebrew Jewish to Julian Calendar Date Converter has an Online converter that shows day of the week for Biblical Scholars. Puzzling is 14 Nissan 33 conversion example on Hebrew Jewish to Julian Calendar Date Converter having 3 April 33 (for Adar II leap month that precedes Nissan) while Online converter shows 2 May 33.
Looking at 14 Nissan day of the week between CE years 26 and 36 finds two years for resurrection on the 1st day of the week: 27 & 30.
Julian & Gregorian calendar can have any day of the month fall on any day of the week. Hebrew calendar has lunar months (14th = full moon), which periodically adds a leap month, which keeps Holy days in the appropriate season: e.g. Pesach (Passover) in the Spring.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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xnman said:
Untrue??? Really? In all this I do believe the bible is the best historical book ever written... And I'm ok siding with it. And the church that Jesus started existed in 33 AD as Acts 2:47 so states ("... and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved") and that church was called Church of Christ per Paul in Rom 16:16.
Way off topic. I was indicating that your statement re: musical instruments in independent Christian/Church of Christ was untrue and provided a concrete example -- churches that use Standard Publishing Company which has a long-term relationship with Logos and hence was most likely recognizable to forum readers.
No one did. This is called a straw man argument. I am going to withdraw from the thread.xnman said:It is not true to say that the majority of churches that call themselves Church of Christ use m.i. in their worship.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Greetings Andrew. I was also unable to open file as it keeps "insisting" that it is a docx file. I tried renaming it without the erroneous ending, however, not being the author, it would not let me change it. Hopefully this can be fixed quickly.
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Bill Shewmaker said:
Greetings Andrew. I was also unable to open file as it keeps "insisting" that it is a docx file. I tried renaming it without the erroneous ending, however, not being the author, it would not let me change it. Hopefully this can be fixed quickly.
Sorry to hear that, Bill. If you download it, you should be able to change the file name, just removing .docx, as per Mattillo's advice in an earlier post. It shouldn't matter who the author is, although it may depend on the device and operating system you're using.
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Hi Andrew, I haven't followed this thread religiously, but I have recently come upon the need to identify someone's theological background and I was able to find it in the latest version of your spreadsheet. Kudos to you for all this work!
I also, for a completely unrelated reason, found myself wanting to help someone on the forums with book recommendations and let him know what theological perspective the authors were writing from. I found one author who wasn't yet in your list, J. A. du Rand (author of Johannine Perspectives). I did some googling about him and was able to find out that his full name was Jan Abraham du Rand, he taught theology in South Africa and was credentialed in the NGK (Dutch Reformed Church). Sadly, he died of Covid-19 in 2021. But now we know his denominational affiliation. A Google translation of the obituary told all this and other details.
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Thanks for the Kudos, Rosie, and for the author info.
I've added J. A. du Rand. I'll try to publish an updated version of the spreadsheet soon.
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Hi Andrew,
Another missing author I can easily identify for you: Fleming Rutledge. She is an Episcopalian priest.
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Thanks again, Rosie. I've added Fleming Rutledge as well. Her works weren't available in Logos when I first created the data.
There's a major update or two coming soon. Watch this space...
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Andrew Baguley said:
There's a major update or two coming soon. Watch this space...
Looking forward to it Andrew. Thanks for all you continue to do in this space. I use your work continually.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:Andrew Baguley said:
There's a major update or two coming soon. Watch this space...
Looking forward to it Andrew. Thanks for all you continue to do in this space. I use your work continually.
Thanks for the encouragement, Bruce. After Logos imported my data and started to provide it in Logos, I wasn't sure if anyone was using it any more.
It would be far easier for me for Logos to look after the data, but they don't seem to present it in such a useable way, and I'm not convinced that their data has had so much attention to detail. (Less diplomatically, there are many errors and inconsistencies.)
However, after Rosie's prompt, and your encouragement, I thought I'd publish an update. See the next post.
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Here's the latest spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology - Nov 2023.xlsm
I'm not sure why it pretends to be a Word document when downloaded. Changing the extension to .xlsx or .xlsm should make it work.
It's also available here: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Al6XZ3KAsP1pgSN7z6Db_SPTixbM?e=9yO2Dh
I've added well over 2500 new authors, so there are now nearly 10,000 authors included, although many are still uncategorised and simply say Newly Added for now. These will take time to categorise. See the Help Appreciated tab if you can help or you know someone else who can.
I've also changed the names of various authors to match the names that Logos now uses. They appear to have changed many authors to use middle names instead of initials, or initials instead of middle names, for example. If anyone knows the reasoning behind this and the rules being followed, I'd be interested to hear them. I've added comments to names so that no data has been lost.
See the Help Appreciated tab if you can help or you know someone else who can.
See the Links tab for other related projects that it would be great if Logos took over. In particular, the Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance project, see https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
Thanks again for the encouragement, Rosie and Bruce. All suggestions have been included. Other suggestions and offers of help welcome.
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Andrew Baguley said:
See the Links tab for other related projects that it would be great if Logos took over. In particular, the Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance project, see https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
I voted. Thank you Andrew for your time and effort.
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Andrew Baguley said:
Here's the latest spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology - Nov 2023.xlsm
Is there an easy method for converting selections from the spreadsheet into a Collection?
...the only thing that matters is faith working through love. (Ga 5:6 - NET)
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Rod Bergen said:
Andrew Baguley said:Here's the latest spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology - Nov 2023.xlsm
Is there an easy method for converting selections from the spreadsheet into a Collection?
Well, that's embarrassing!
There was, Rod, but it looks like I broke it at some point.
Try this spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology - 23 Nov 23.xls
It's also available here: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Al6XZ3KAsP1pgSN7z6Db_SPTixbM?e=9yO2Dh
Simply filter as required, then copy CJ1 into a new Logos collection.
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I hope that worked for you, Rod.
I've also updated the single denomination and theology collections at: https://faithlife.com/logos-library-theology-denomination-tags/documents
And, I've fixed the 'Refresh' button on the Logos Rules tab, although it takes minutes to run. There's no real need for anyone else to run it though. The latest spreadsheet includes the updated Logos Rules: Denominations and Theology - 25 Nov 23.xls
And I've updated the Logos Rules tab on the shared spreadsheet as well: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Al6XZ3KAsP1pgSN7z6Db_SPTixbM?e=9yO2DhThis project feeds into a bigger project. See details here: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
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I was asked in a post elsewhere (https://faithlife.com/posts/5591470) how to get started with using the collections. I stopped updating the reference guide in April 2016, but I'll post a slightly updated version below, which doesn't refer only to Logos 5 and 6!
I'd welcome feedback on where it still needs to be updated. The hope was that Logos was taking over the project and that there would be no need for further updates, but the tagging they have done doesn't seem to allow us to do all that can be done here, hence the update.
Reference Guide: 3173.Theology and Denomination Tag Reference.doc
Don't forget to vote for the latest project if you would find it useful: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
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Thanks to those who have provided positive feedback. It seems that it's still being used, so here's an updated spreadsheet:
Denominations and Theology - Shared.xlsm
Also available here: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Al6XZ3KAsP1pgSN7z6Db_SPTixbM?e=9yO2Dh
The reference guide is here: 3173.Theology and Denomination Tag Reference.doc
The formatting has been heavily updated to show the key facts for each author more easily. Many authors now have links to articles on Wikipedia, and a good bit of the data has been updated.
I'll continue to update it slowly over time, until Logos lets us do what the spreadsheet allows us to do.
As always, comments, suggestions, feedback and offers of help welcome.
If you have found it useful and haven't yet seen the latest project idea, please check it out and consider voting here: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
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Looking back at the first post, and how many authors were named, this project has come a long way. There are now nearly 10,000 authors listed and, since last month, a good bit of data has been added - see Notes tab. As I wrote last month, the formatting has been heavily updated to show the key facts for each author more easily, and many authors now have links to articles on Wikipedia.
I may not update this for a while, as I'll be working on other things, so I thought I'd post the latest update:
Denominations and Theology - Shared.xlsm
Also available here: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Al6XZ3KAsP1pgSN7z6Db_SPTixbM?e=9yO2Dh with links to related projects - see Links tab.
The reference guide is here: 3173.Theology and Denomination Tag Reference.doc
As always, comments, suggestions, feedback and offers of help welcome.
If you have found it useful and haven't yet seen the latest project idea, please check it out and consider voting here: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
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Thank you so much for this efford, Andrew!
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I have tried various ways to download/open this file and it will not let me have access to it...oh well...
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It has been successfully downloaded and opened...Thank you!!!!!!!
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