FEEDBACK WANTED: New Resource Toolbar on Desktop

I like the old style where I could click on one button and get my other translations or the interlinear text. Now I have to click the button and the switch. Why add extra clicks? Why add complexity?

Welcome to the Forums @Casey Wright - this is a question many have asked and I am not sure that we ever received a detailed reason for the inefficient aspects of the Dynamic Toolbar…. I think there may have been some reasoning talked about "making Logos easier" for new users - though I am not sure that was ever made known to be the "official" reason. Also not sure that said users would all find it "easier" it they had experience with the Classic Toolbar

I already commented that I agree completely. But I have been thinking about this and this suggestion just seems obvious. Every one is experienced with the standard menus in Windows and Mac. — the learning curve has happened already (although a Logos version might still have a minor learning curve of its own).

It maximizes screen real estate (unless it becomes a bloated button bar).

I have not idea what would have to go on under the hood to make a single menu work for Bibles and books but I have a lot of confidence that the Logos development team could do it if it can be done.

Well….. A recent conversation has me a little more concerned about this Feature.

It is sounding like the "Subscription only Feature" of the Dynamic Toolbar may be forced onto us non-subscribers eventually as well - due to the maintenance costs (which has been mentioned and is understanding).

So now I have to test an old Logos on Linux trick we needed when application updates were a problem, but we wanted to still be able to download our books that we purchase. The installer wouldn't work on earlier versions of Windows, so we set the exe to an earlier version in Compatibility mode to block the program updates. (One of those Libronix features I still miss - why can't we select what we want to update and what we don't want updated.)

Hopefully this work around will work - so if the Dynamic Toolbar is forced on everyone and is not improved for efficiency and not forcing some of us to change our layouts for efficiency - I can hopefully stay on V36 and maybe grab a resource or two if needed. If the work around doesn't work and the toolbar is not improved, I guess internet off, which means no downloads of new books will be my only option… Hopefully it is improved (and that is not by forcing the use of keyboard shortcuts)

I was directed here from the "New" button within the Logos App. I have not read others' feedback, so apologies for any duplication.

I generally like the new interface. It is intuitive and I can find quickly what I want.

The only exception is the new zoom functionality, which I feel is a step backwards in efficiency. The slider bar was much better for 2 reasons: 1) one could quickly increase or decrease the zoom level with a single click-drag, whereas now one needs to click the up/down arrows multiple times; 2) the slider bar marked the default zoom for the panel, so it was easy to return to it later. Now, one needs to guess at the default setting (and click multiple times to get back to it).

I suggest either returning to the slider bar by default, or making it an option. E.g. keep the +/- buttons, but make the "Zoom" text a button which causes the slider to temporarily appear below it.

Thanks and blessings,

Michael

I absolutely do not like the changes that are being made. My Bible resources are constantly being "reformatted" with chapter and verse taken out. This adds more work for me to change that setting every time I open a tab.

It is official - I now hate the toolbar.

I just launched Logos and noticed I have 38.0.578. Every one of my books are, as annoyingly usual, showing both primary and secondary menus - which I hate. I now have to manually close the secondary menus. I am absolutely sick and tired of this time-wasting, screen-hogging, distracting "dysfunctionality". (If this gets fixed I may only dislike the toolbar.)

And to think.... Even those of us not subscribing to avoid the Dynamic Toolbar will possibly be forced into using it... Hopefully they fix it, though I'm not sold on them doing so...

Maybe forcing it on all users is a plan to get more subscribers... Maybe users like myself should have kept my comments about not giving the LFL a chance due to the Dynamic Toolbar.... FORCING it on us eliminating the one excuse for not subscribing...

If forcing such an undesirable tool to many in them is what Logos feels is showing care for their customers.... Well, never mind - it's the New Era

Could an on/off toggle be considered for "Start reading", just like all the other features on the taskbar that are switched on and off with a click?

I am a logos Max sub'r and I HATE the new tool bar, I cant even follow along with training videos. GIVE US THE OPTION TO CHANGE IT AS SUB'rs why do you have to make life so difficult? Why can't we just have the option to change it like the top panel being moved to the side ?

I just stole your study format. lol. saved it as a layout.

Please remove the bright blue “new” tab as it is too bright and is distracting to my eyes when I read. Also, please provide a way to turn off the dynamic toolbar for users who are used to the older toolbar with symbols, which offered a much cleaner interface.

Welcome to the Forums Paul - though I don't have the displeasure of the Dynamic Toolbar yet - I have seen the graphics with the New label and it would bother me as well. Others have questioned it and I think the "resolution" Logos thinks is good is forcing users to see it for four weeks in Version 38…

I think the "resolution" Logos thinks is good is forcing users to see it for four weeks in Version 38

This is correct @Frank Sauer. "new" should go away automatically after four weeks.

Please consider linking "new" to this page after sufficient feedback has been gathered: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/29439681440525-Where-do-I-find-on-the-dynamic-toolbar

This would be far more helpful to the user as they transition from the old toolbar to the new.

Please consider linking "new" to this page after sufficient feedback has been gathered: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/29439681440525-Where-do-I-find-on-the-dynamic-toolbar

This would be far more helpful to the user as they transition from the old toolbar to the new.

Very good idea! Fits better to "new" anyway: helping users to accomodate. Asking for feedback should have been for the beta only - or a separate small button for feedback

It would be helpful for me if I could press [1] shift+esc (or somesuch) to hide the secondary menu of the current book and [2] ctrl+esc (or somesuch) to close all secondary menus in all tabs. I am wearing out my mouse to continually hide these distracting, screen-hogging structures.

I would think it fantastic if the hide status of the toolbar were remembered. The status would be updated every time I open or close the secondary menu (regardless of which panel I currently have open). If my last action were to be minimizing the secondary menu, then the next panel I open would open with a minimized menu. Furthermore, the current status would save along with the layout.

The latest version of the resource panel is working for me.

When on my large external monitor there is sufficient space to display both primary and secondary toolbars, and the "New" button is relatively small (which is good) but shaded blue to differentiate it from the normal functional buttons — works for me. The icon immediately to the right of the "New" icon/button is a handy one-click way to hide the secondary resource toolbar when I'm using my laptop's screen with less space. Recommend when hovering over this icon text such as "Click to display/hide the Secondary Resource Toolbar" be displayed. Currently when I hover over the icon nothing comes up.

Overall I find this implementation effective.

I, too, have wished for a remembered status. Anything, or combination of things, would be welcome to reduce screen-hogging, distraction, and continual time-wasting (due to mouseketeering). That is why my ideal would be a standard menu in one place that controls whatever book has focus - along with your remembered-status suggestions.

I will say, though I never tested it on an external monitor - that I could see that being helpful for the footprint issue… Though still the need for too many clicks for simple functions.

Here is how much real estate the distracting, screen-hogging toolbars take up on one of my 3 monitors. When you add the other 2 monitors, it is even worse.

The top overlay includes all the toolbars - primary and secondary.

The bottom overlay is the secondary toolbars - which appear every time I open a book or relaunch Logos. 😠 (It is like an incessant irritant.)

I really do not appreciate this significant amount of screen real estate being lost for something I use just a few moments per day. I have taken to using full screen mode a lot more than I did before in an effort to escape the Attack of the Toolbars. 💣

oops. Here is the image

In thinking about this a bit more, I think that creating an option to auto-hide the secondary toolbar may potentially be the easiest and most efficient way to solve this problem.

With this setting enabled, one would also not have need for the arrow that raises and lowers the secondary toolbar, as hovering over or clicking on the primary toolbar would likely do the job better. This would clean up the menu even more.

It seems like a very appealing setting to have as an option, especially as one grows familiar enough with the secondary toolbar so as not to need the constant visual cues.

During a webinar yesterday about version 38, @Mark Barnes answered a Q&A question I posted about this. If I understood him correctly, he said closing all the open secondary toolbars in 1 operation was not doable. I don't know if that has a bearing on your suggestions. But I agree with you. I would definitely vote for such a proposal.

The way the secondary toolbars show up by default makes me think developers expect users to be accessing the toolbars quite often. Most of my interaction is to turn off the secondary toolbars - it is my daily whack-a-mole exercise.

I Like the new feature. I was one of the users of WordSearch Bible that was moved over to Logo's when WordSearch closed shop. The GUI interface for WordSearch, for those who are not familiar. looks a lot like ESword. I used WordSearch for years. Getting use to Logo's interface has been very trying for me. This new feature is helping greatly.

I'm glad that you are finding it easier to navigate - "trying" navigation can indeed bog down the use of the product.

Auto hiding the secondary could be beneficial - I guess for me, that is one aspect that didn't bother me as much as it does some - considering we had to close the secondary on the Classic Toolbar as well.

I used the Greek/Hebrew Interlinear all the time. One-click was so convenient. Now it is three. I am curious if others use that feature more and would like the ability to lock it on the toolbar or at least have it more convenient. 3 steps on and 3 steps off is not convenient

A decade ± ago I participated in a beta test for a program I had long enjoyed. But the interface had changed in such a way that I began to dread launching it. I procrastinated launching the program; I fussed and fidgeted while in the app. The emotional oppression I felt, and the lack of developer responsiveness, finally led me to abandon the app.

I am starting to have similar, though much milder, feelings about Logos because of the toolbars. The screen-hogging secondary toolbar is continually visible whenever I open a book or relaunch Logos. I keep muttering, "Please! Make it stop!" when I see the uninvited secondary toolbars staring at me - taunting me to mouse around the screen closing them.

Back in L4 days I stopped using Logos because it seemed to be a huge memory hog. My increasingly desperate plea to Logos developers now is: Please give me an option to make the oppressive toolbars stop!

Logos team,

I selected a subscription and upgraded from L10 in the last week, having used Logos heavily since L4. I apologize for not reading all the comments here before posting, but there are twenty-five pages as of this post. Instead, this is just another users personal feedback with (1) encouragement, (2) frustrations, and (3) a bonus idea.

Concessions and Encouragement

I concede that this dramatic shift in the Resource Toolbar ought to improve a new users ability to find and make use of various features. Text is easier to navigate than unknown icons. In this limited sense (focused on new or unfamiliar users), I think the update may benefit them. I can see the amount of work and attention to these details that y'all have put into this, and I appreciate the goals.

Frustrations and Possible Solutions

My initial experience has not been simple, clear, or quick. Some of this is learning curve, since I have been habituated into a Resource Toolbar schema that is about a decade old (with minor changes along the way). Here are a few pain points which other users may have mentioned, but so as to contribute to the application's improvement I'll also offer potential solutions I could envision:

1. The expanded toolbar takes up too much space. While it appears that individual tabs remember the minimized state of the bar, I can find no way to globally default the new Resource Toolbar to collapsed—which I would love to do.
   1. [Potential Solution] Provide a Program Setting for the Default state of the Resource Toolbar: Collapsed, Expanded, or Inherit from Previous.
2. Toggle items are buried. I make regular use of Multiple Resource View which I used to be able to toggle on/off by clicking the icon. Now, I have to uncollapse the bar by clicking View, then click on Add Parallel Text, and then click the toggle switch to accomplish the same action. This experience is similar for many other features which have toggles inside of their flyout pane.
   1. [Potential Solution 1] One potential solution would be a dynamic slot on the main bar called Recents: "Home, Recents, Search, Notes, &c." This Recents slot when expanded would show all Enabled features like Visual Filters, Interlinear, Multiple Resource View, &c—allowing a one-place access to features the current user is actually using.
   2. [Potential Solution 2] A different and complimentary improvement would be to make the buttons, which have toggles in their flyout panes, split buttons like the previous ones were. In this scenario, clicking the wording of the button would toggle the feature, and clicking the down arrow would expand the flyout. This would reduce the number of clicks by one (or 33%).

Another Idea

This brings me my final thought. What if there was a Program Setting for the Resource Toolbar type, where the user could choose (a) Descriptive or (b) Minimalist. Descriptive is the new toolbar with all the text. Minimalist is the previous toolbar with the icons and leaner design. Each would have their own learning curve, and Logos could even ship with the Descriptive enabled, but long-time users of Logos would then have a way to revert back to the Resource Toolbar they have already learned and (in my case) loved.

Conclusion

Thank you all for considering these ideas and being willing to interact with users to create a great experience and maintain the functionality we've all come to enjoy.

-David

In respect to your "Another Idea" - some of us have been begging and pleading for a toolbar option…

I was recently informed by a member of the Logos team that due to the cost of maintaining both toolbars, they are going to force the Dynamic Toolbar on every user. No longer will a user be able to avoid it by not subscribing, seems like the only way to avoid it will be locking yourself to Logos Version 36 and never updating.

I would hope they would reconsider, but last I heard it does not sound like it.... No matter how unpopular they will eventually force it on everyone....

The keyboard shortcut Ctrl-I in Windows turns the Interlinear toggle on and off. (I'm not sure of the corresponding keys in MacOS.)

Such shortcuts appear to be the workaround for the toolbar's shortcomings.

David,

The Multiple Resource View toggle can be switched on and off with the keyboard shortcut Ctrl-Shift-M in Windows (not sure of the key combination in MacOS).

Such shortcuts appear to be the workaround for the toolbar's shortcomings.

The keyboard shortcut Ctrl-I in Windows turns the Interlinear toggle on and off

Is there a keyboard shortcut for the Reverse Interlinear ribbon?

If you are referencing the Reverse Interlinear Pane - CTRL - SHIFT - R

Ctrl+Shift+R but it works kind of haphazardly here - maybe a hotkey conflict with another app? I wish the 2 interlinear hotkeys were more similar - like both being Ctrl+Shift — but Ctrl+Shift+I and Ctrl+R are both already spoken for.

This is one of the problems of setting up keyboard shortcuts to fix the efficiency issues with the new toolbar - conflicts and the need to memorize hotkeys for simple one or two click functions….. Still wonder how they think that a simple menu that a users just needs to learn visual icon representation is difficult - but forcing users to memorize hot keys is somehow easy…..

These issues are why I think Logos would benefit by something like the brilliant solution developed by Freeplane and, to a lesser degree, Libreoffice - Command Search. (See my post in this thread.)

While I can appreciate the desire to organize the commands and be more clear, in practice I must admit I'm spending more time. The one-click buttons to do things like interlinear on/off, parallel texts, page view, notes and highlights are particularly missed. The menus are proving cumbersome. Can we have the option to bring back the buttons please?

Welcome to the Forums @Chad Leman - a number of users have been asking for the option...

Sadly, unless something changes - according to a conversation I had with a member of the Logos team, the new toolbar will eventually be forced on all users regardless of subscription status.

All we can do is continue to express our disappointment with the feature and our desire to not force it on us.

Some of us may not longer make purchases if they do force it on us

What is this said activist group? I would love to be part of it!

I don't mind the new resource toolbar, but a few things I wish it did better.

1. I am used to the "Contents" always being available as the leftmost icon, so I can quickly toggle the contents on and off.
   1. Now, with the new toolbar, if I switch to the view menu and then change to columns, etc. I lose my "contents". I have to click again on the "Home" to bring back the "Contents" in the leftmost position.
      1. I wish the "Contents" were persistent in that location and just to the right of that icon, the context sensitive menu options based on the view I click above.
2. I find myself going to the "View" a lot, to adjust the size of the font with the "Zoom", make into columns, etc.
   1. One suggestion I would prefer, when I go to make columns of the text, right now, I have to first toggle "Paged View" using the slider. Then select the number of columns, etc.
   2. I would prefer when I went dropped down the Paged View option, I could click directly on the number of columns, and have it toggle the paged view on. Then the only time I would have to click on the slider is if I wanted to turn it off. It would save me a step.
      1. currently, the numbers are grayed out until I slide Paged View on.
         1. Of course, I'm now using Shift-Command-P, which toggles it on and off, but from a UI design viewpoint, that was a point of frustration for me early on with the new toolbar

Those are my first impressions. I'll keep playing with it and post more feedback if this is helpful.

Eric

Eric,

At the risk of being redundant, Ctrl-Shift-C in Windows turns the Table of Contents on and off in Logos (not sure of the key command in MacOS).

Key commands rather than icons are frustrating, but this is the (artificial) world Logos has created for us to live in.

» Key commands rather than icons are frustrating «

Mo Proctor used to sell a mouse pad with all the important keyboard shortcuts…I'd love to have an updated one with the new stuff. (I wore my original, about L4, completely slick…unreadable, LOL.)

I dont use keyboard shortcuts. I have to much going on in life to remember all these, and just need the regular toolbar back, I don't see any point on this thread anyways because they are going to force this on us no matter what we do.

Here's my thought process, James.

1. I always looked forward to Logos' biennial upgrades (I've invested heavily, both financially and ministerially, in Logos software since the demise of Bibleworks).
2. For me, a subscription plan (Max, in this case) costs roughly half of what the old upgrade program did, calculated over a two-year period.
3. Logos has always added curve balls and speed bumps to their software, but because they were always included with useful new features every two years, they weren't all that annoying.
4. The "slow motion" nature of their subscription updates makes the annoying stuff (like the dynamic toolbar) seem more useless than it actually is because it is more visible, and because very little else of value was added in version 37.
5. While I was initially both frustrated and angered by this truly ridiculous update, I decided, for my emotional and spiritual well-being, to accept it and find workarounds for it. Keyboard shortcuts, available for the things I use, do the trick.
6. The posting of the shortcuts was intended to help others get on with their lives despite Logos' apparent folly.

Is there a publicly available provisional roadmap of the toolbars' likely evolution? I'd like to get a general idea of what might change in the development of this tool.

There are things about the toolbars I do not like and some I'm merely OK about. Perhaps a roadmap would give me hope and calm my nerves. Or not. But suspense is not good for my nerves. It might be comforting to know, for example, that being able to hide the secondary toolbar by default was on the horizon.

Can I set toolbar > formatting > Factbook tags to be OFF by default? (Or any other secondary toolbar options?) I often want to click on a word in order to see corresponding words but don't notice the faint underline.

@Bob Venem Thank you for this, Maybe if I have a keyboard short cuts picture open on another screen I can use them. Are you able to tag me again with all the shortcuts I can't seem to find your post again in this thread. Maybe I'll just make a spreadsheet with them on there so I can see them all at once.

I've attached a PDF I made of the Windows shortcuts as they are found in the Logos Help File.