Why I can no longer recommend Logos Bible Software.
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In my case, it does anger me. The only thing offered in the subscription that I have any interest in, as a L10 full feature upgrade owner, are feature upgrades that can be kept after 2 years of a subscription. But to not know what all of those features are right now, and to risk paying for a 2-year subscription for what I don't even know if I will want later on, I absolutely will not make that financial gamble (and that's what it is for me, a financial gamble). Everything else offered in the subscription is of no interest or consideration to me at all, and I will not give them any consideration. If that means I don't subscribe (and thus also be prevented from purchasing new bundled libraries), then that's the way it is. Faithlife is losing my business as a result.
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Customer-churn. Lose some, win some. Kind of like gobs of marketing emails that cost almost nothing … win some … anger some. Ka-ching!
My impression, is that early on with the PE, there was a conscious decision to reduce forum 'listening' in favor of more stats. Taking forever on denom-packages for that extra ka-ching. And also, a greater emphasis on newbies, though that remains a question … a newbie soon tires of clicks and more clicks. It's a newbie interface.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Also with the newbies as of now having no LFL option.... They honestly have no reason to be faithful or long term. They have the probability of being a much more volatile customer base that can walk away a lot easier than a faithful, long term customer base ... Sadly, I think Logos is banking on this long time faithful to be more tolerant for that reason.... It could easily backfire....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Newbies have only one reason to stick with Logos, and as long as it's the best tool for the job, they will.
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Olivetree has subscription plans too.
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I'm not a customer there yet, but when I installed I didn't see a requirement for subscription. It looked as though they offered subscription options for some of their offers.... Unless I missed something (highly possible, as I spent very little time with it) they still had straight purchase options as well.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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A subscription is not required with OliveTree. Just like Logos.
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Taking forever on denom-packages for that extra ka-ching.
It is my understanding based on the answer to a post in these forums that the denominational packages will have books that actually exist, rather than books we are still waiting for 3+ years later. That is a major and desirable change.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Does Olive Tree lock users out of Features if they don't subscribe? Again didn't spend a lot of time, but the quick glance I took - their subscription seemed to be resource not feature based.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Also, does Olive Tree lock users out of purchasing new resources package offerings if they don't subscribe?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Does Olive Tree lock users out of Features if they don't subscribe?What new features?
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Just smiling, but I'm not sure that's a good sign. They must be backed up badly.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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You quote me - then reference something that is not what I said…. Where in my statement did I limit my question to 'new'??? Answer - I didn't!
The fact is that a 'new' user of Logos MUST subscribe to gain access to many, if not most Logos 10 Features - while 'new' to the new user, they are in fact not new in any way…. That is the question/point I was asking/making…. I didn't see anywhere in my short glance at the Olive Tree info a requirement of a subscription for their Features - the subscription appeared to be strictly resources….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Exactly. And if you purchase OliveTree, do you know how many new features you'll get in the next two years? The same as Logos without a subscription.
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Well - good to know that you know OliveTree's plans…. And Logos' as well….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I know past history.
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I believe you are correct and this is one the reasons why I personaly have not invested in OliveTree good look app! However, OliverTree still would give access to at least some of the type of reasources that Mike Childs was interested.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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My impression is that OliveTree is incrementally sliding into the market the Logos left behind at L4. Sort of the meat and potatoes market that needs ease of use, along with good reference books (commentaries, lexicons, etc). Accordance seems like it was trying a similar strategy, but didn't have the generic UI, ending up with a boutique BW-ish legacy market.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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As annoying as I find this thread, I keep coming back to read it. Go figure. 😀
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Mr Childs, with deep respect, I find it very odd that you say non-subscribers aren't appreciated by the company when Logos offers existing users discounts on all subscriptions, and even non-subscribers are promised free software updates and continued support. Non-subscribers get free access to Logos' cloud services so they can backup the state of all user activities, store all their notes and highlights, sync between devices, and download resources. This is unheard of in the software industry and very commendable!
I will agree that performance should always be in Logos' top 3 priorities. When Logos 10 was released I couldn't believe how time I took making making breakfast as Logos 9 required an hour to update the index.
Regarding the move to subscriptions, it certainly lowers the entry cost of Logos. It was difficult to recommend Logos in the past because of the high cost of packaged bundles. Few people wanted to commit to spending $800 on a Bible app and still not get all the features (the Gold package was $1000). Now folks can get the full feature set for about $10 a month. It's a gamechanger!
One more thing, I think Logos has really upped their game when it comes to feature awareness and training. Most folks, including me for quite sometime, were unaware of 90% of the features available in the desktop app. Once they published all the features with videos on how to use them I was blown away and quickly began to appreciate what this tool could do for me regarding my personal devotion and ministry. The free tutorials and webinars are fantastic! It is quite extraordinary for any company to offer that kind of training without some additional cost!
I will pray that Faithlife and Logos remain faithful to our God and to continue to put Him first as success like this can often lead one astray.
Kudos to the Faithlife and Logos teams!0 -
A few things….. The "discount" for previous users (especially FFS owners is nothing special - it is the New Era equivalent of Dynamic Pricing - as without that discount they would likely not get many FFS owners - since that is still the majority of Features that new users are paying for at this point.)
Your point about the lower entry cost is needed with context - previously you paid more BUT you owned everything you bought - NOW? You pay and own no features if you cancel your subscription - just back to whatever limited features are in the Free Engine…. So, there is a big difference….
So while some may find it beneficial, for others it has little to no benefit and that view should be respected and is not always on the Forums (not you personally)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I'm actually blown away by how many features Logos gives away at no charge.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1IOXGusuGt5_78fmO3q-GZtXOQrZgT6ampdaWkbBtS-k/pubhtml0 -
For some it can be a very good option - if not for most users interested in upping their personal Study game….
You are so ready to jump on any comment that doesn't praise Logos - are you ever going to call out misinformation that will mislead potential new users from those who also love to praise Logos?
The post I was responding to was full of misinformation - some I pointed out - some I ignored, like comparing the cost of Gold which included owning the L10 FFS and a very powerful Library to the "deal" of cheaper entry via subscription….
A new user may read that and think that they are making out - but it is not mentioned in the post the actual context….
With the $1000 purchase you OWN everything in that package - with the subscription you are RENTING…. So the moment your subscription runs out, back to not only the limited (in comparison) Features, but also all the books….
To get the actual FFS, a Max Subscription is needed - so a new user pays around $380 (about 40% of the Gold Package quoted) and walks away with nothing beyond the free engine and free library…. (Unless they bought more books)
The 2025 Gold Library by itself is $595 - so a new user is paying just under $975 for the 2025 Gold Library (with Max subscription to be comparable to the Gold Package quoted) and that is for just two years of FFS (Plus as of this time they do NOT qualify for the LFL - which BTW, I have been arguing for behind the scenes)
So the L10 "new user" dropped $1000 and owns the L10 FFS with their Gold Library - the New Era Logos Max "New User" (unless they subscribe perpetually) owns their Gold Level Library with the Free Engine Features…. IMHO that is not a better deal than what we previously had for new users….
There is also no deal that I have seen that allows a new user to get the FFS for $10 per month as was stated….
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I'm blown away, every time I get in my car … free steering wheel!! Free brakes!! Mark, you PAID for those features … when you bought books. That's how Logos worked. And probably still does. Now true, you're just having fun.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Nope. You don't have to pay for the features in the free edition. And there are a lot of them.
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I'll leave you to your dreams.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mr Sauer, yesterday you claimed my post was "full of misinformation", yet you are overlooking many key things:
1. AI features weren't available in the Gold package so you're not comparing apples with apples: features like Smart Search, Summarize, AI generated Outlines, Illustrations, Questions, and Applications. These have an additional cost associated with them which subscribers benefit from.
2. With the old delivery method, you would have to buy a new upgraded FFS every 2 years for about $300. For existing L10 FFS users, this is around the same cost of a subscription and you also get all the AI features, AND you get to keep all new non-AI features after 2 years.
3. Not everyone is an academic delving heavily in the original languages, so the Max subscription will be overkill for most people. A Pro subscription offers the best feature set for the vast majority of users.
4. Prepaying for two years, the cost for new users of a Premium subscription is $8 per month; the Pro subscription is $12 per month; $16 per month for Max. These are further discounted if you were an existing Logos user, as I was.
5. Logos subscribers also get access to up to 8 Mobile Ed courses every 3 months (8 with Max, 5 with Pro, 3 with Premium), some of which are over $600 a pop. This is a fantastic perk that can easily be overlooked.
6. Furthermore, all Pro & Max subscribers get free access to Logos Sermons and they also get an additional 5% back in credits for whatever they spent the previous year; and, ALL subscribers save 5% off resources in the store and they get an extra free book every month.
I believe Logos has made a compelling case for subscribing, but no one is forcing you to subscribe so if you're happy with what you've got then stick with it. I'm simply stating the facts as presented here:
https://www.logos.com/configure/subscriptions.
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Saay … your argument for subscriptions is good. But a few points:
- I don't recall ever needing all the features. And in recent years, I purchased smaller feature groupings that came with the libraries at a significant discount. So, I was never anywhere near $300/update. Agreed, if a new customer wanted 'whole hog', FFS would be the vehicle.
- The legacy is a one-off (currently). As you word it, for current L10 owners. The future is unknown. And its content is also unknown.
- New customers probably aren't going to just subscribe. They'll be encouraged to buy libraries … that significantly benefit from a continued subscription. Therein is 'the rub'. A strict subscription, like Netflix, is come and go; the Logos libraries are typically major investments.
I'd recommend the subscription as a stand-alone (some features, some books, some videos, etc and cancel as desired). But for a friend looking to invest in serious Bible study over many years, only if a pastor or academic.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Really good summary Saay!
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I'm not sure your third point is a valid comparison. With a Netflix subscription you own nothing, even if you've been paying for 10 years. When you purchase a Logos library, you own all the books. Yes, a subscription makes the books more useful, but even without one, the books you've purchased are still more useful in Logos than in the Kindle or Apple Books apps.
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