Why I can no longer recommend Logos Bible Software.

Or they could have allowed for an option for the faithful customers that supported them long before AI was a thing - by offering a "non-AI" purchase option… Some users may be interested in something like Bible Study Builder, but have no interest in AI or additional resources picked by Logos…. (Even allowing for purchase of individual modules like the Bible Study Builder would have been "an Olive Branch" for some)

Possibly…. But is turning away a group of your long term, faithful customers a good way to protect the business? Losing the purchasing power of the old time Logosians, as well as losing their 'positive' "word of mouth - those aren't good things…

Don't forget all of you that have a "bad taste in your mouth" about a certain other platform - once fully supported it…. Then you saw and experienced things that caused concern…. Eventually leading to the "exodus" from the platform - ever wonder if you are looking past the fact that for some of us Logosians - that is where we are today…. This just isn't the company that we invested in and supported for decades - some of us are very concerned!

Not sure just how many are being angered. I picked up the Full-Feature at a nice discount. Two in-fact. And get to continue on, at no cost to me the next few years. Pick up some freebies here and there. How's that for a good deal? And you get to fund my joy!

But relative to the title of the thread, double the subscription rate and remove the 2-year-keep-something feature. And keep paying … and paying … and paying. For pastors and academics sure, they're loaded (joking). For the much larger population of Bible folks, no. OliveTree is the better choice.

Hey, OliveTree is still around and they also scholarly Original language texts, apparatuses, and commentaries. Of course no one other than Amazon.com has more resources and books than Logos, does.

In my case, it does anger me. The only thing offered in the subscription that I have any interest in, as a L10 full feature upgrade owner, are feature upgrades that can be kept after 2 years of a subscription. But to not know what all of those features are right now, and to risk paying for a 2-year subscription for what I don't even know if I will want later on, I absolutely will not make that financial gamble (and that's what it is for me, a financial gamble). Everything else offered in the subscription is of no interest or consideration to me at all, and I will not give them any consideration. If that means I don't subscribe (and thus also be prevented from purchasing new bundled libraries), then that's the way it is. Faithlife is losing my business as a result.

Also with the newbies as of now having no LFL option.... They honestly have no reason to be faithful or long term. They have the probability of being a much more volatile customer base that can walk away a lot easier than a faithful, long term customer base ... Sadly, I think Logos is banking on this long time faithful to be more tolerant for that reason.... It could easily backfire....

Olivetree has subscription plans too.

A subscription is not required with OliveTree. Just like Logos.

Does Olive Tree lock users out of Features if they don't subscribe? Again didn't spend a lot of time, but the quick glance I took - their subscription seemed to be resource not feature based.

Frank Sauer2:44 pm

Does Olive Tree lock users out of Features if they don't subscribe?



What new features?

You quote me - then reference something that is not what I said…. Where in my statement did I limit my question to 'new'??? Answer - I didn't!

The fact is that a 'new' user of Logos MUST subscribe to gain access to many, if not most Logos 10 Features - while 'new' to the new user, they are in fact not new in any way…. That is the question/point I was asking/making…. I didn't see anywhere in my short glance at the Olive Tree info a requirement of a subscription for their Features - the subscription appeared to be strictly resources….

Well - good to know that you know OliveTree's plans…. And Logos' as well….

I believe you are correct and this is one the reasons why I personaly have not invested in OliveTree good look app! However, OliverTree still would give access to at least some of the type of reasources that Mike Childs was interested.

As annoying as I find this thread, I keep coming back to read it. Go figure. 😀

A few things….. The "discount" for previous users (especially FFS owners is nothing special - it is the New Era equivalent of Dynamic Pricing - as without that discount they would likely not get many FFS owners - since that is still the majority of Features that new users are paying for at this point.)

Your point about the lower entry cost is needed with context - previously you paid more BUT you owned everything you bought - NOW? You pay and own no features if you cancel your subscription - just back to whatever limited features are in the Free Engine…. So, there is a big difference….

So while some may find it beneficial, for others it has little to no benefit and that view should be respected and is not always on the Forums (not you personally)

For some it can be a very good option - if not for most users interested in upping their personal Study game….

You are so ready to jump on any comment that doesn't praise Logos - are you ever going to call out misinformation that will mislead potential new users from those who also love to praise Logos?

The post I was responding to was full of misinformation - some I pointed out - some I ignored, like comparing the cost of Gold which included owning the L10 FFS and a very powerful Library to the "deal" of cheaper entry via subscription….

A new user may read that and think that they are making out - but it is not mentioned in the post the actual context….

With the $1000 purchase you OWN everything in that package - with the subscription you are RENTING…. So the moment your subscription runs out, back to not only the limited (in comparison) Features, but also all the books….

To get the actual FFS, a Max Subscription is needed - so a new user pays around $380 (about 40% of the Gold Package quoted) and walks away with nothing beyond the free engine and free library…. (Unless they bought more books)

The 2025 Gold Library by itself is $595 - so a new user is paying just under $975 for the 2025 Gold Library (with Max subscription to be comparable to the Gold Package quoted) and that is for just two years of FFS (Plus as of this time they do NOT qualify for the LFL - which BTW, I have been arguing for behind the scenes)

So the L10 "new user" dropped $1000 and owns the L10 FFS with their Gold Library - the New Era Logos Max "New User" (unless they subscribe perpetually) owns their Gold Level Library with the Free Engine Features…. IMHO that is not a better deal than what we previously had for new users….

There is also no deal that I have seen that allows a new user to get the FFS for $10 per month as was stated….

Nope. You don't have to pay for the features in the free edition. And there are a lot of them.

Mr Sauer, yesterday you claimed my post was "full of misinformation", yet you are overlooking many key things:
1. AI features weren't available in the Gold package so you're not comparing apples with apples: features like Smart Search, Summarize, AI generated Outlines, Illustrations, Questions, and Applications. These have an additional cost associated with them which subscribers benefit from.
2. With the old delivery method, you would have to buy a new upgraded FFS every 2 years for about $300. For existing L10 FFS users, this is around the same cost of a subscription and you also get all the AI features, AND you get to keep all new non-AI features after 2 years.
3. Not everyone is an academic delving heavily in the original languages, so the Max subscription will be overkill for most people. A Pro subscription offers the best feature set for the vast majority of users.
4. Prepaying for two years, the cost for new users of a Premium subscription is $8 per month; the Pro subscription is $12 per month; $16 per month for Max. These are further discounted if you were an existing Logos user, as I was.
5. Logos subscribers also get access to up to 8 Mobile Ed courses every 3 months (8 with Max, 5 with Pro, 3 with Premium), some of which are over $600 a pop. This is a fantastic perk that can easily be overlooked.
6. Furthermore, all Pro & Max subscribers get free access to Logos Sermons and they also get an additional 5% back in credits for whatever they spent the previous year; and, ALL subscribers save 5% off resources in the store and they get an extra free book every month.
I believe Logos has made a compelling case for subscribing, but no one is forcing you to subscribe so if you're happy with what you've got then stick with it. I'm simply stating the facts as presented here:
https://www.logos.com/configure/subscriptions.
No fluff!

Really good summary Saay!

@Saay while I appreciate your excitement for the Subscription Model - you say I am overlooking key things… Your original post didn't mention some of what you are mentioning here - some points that I never questioned about Subscriptions - the perks will be a benefit some users at varying levels….

You also want to speak of apples to apples - you are the one that brough up how much Gold cost, not me….L10 Gold also did include the Translation tool and Print Library, both features not eligible for the LFL due to the AI/Cloud rule - so again, you are not giving full context…

Comparing what users pay for Gold and/or FFS upgrades every two years to Premium or Pro is also not apples to apples - as previous upgrades of the FFS included everything and again the user OWNED their features….

Subscriptions not being forced? Also you leave out the context…. Logos has now shifted to charging for/requiring a user to subscribe for parity with features they already own (Android Sermon Manager) - which has never been the case previously… Non-subscribers are not allowed to purchase 2025 Library offerings (Logos claims that was always the case and nothing changed - again disregards the context that they never forbade new users from OWNING features that were purchased with the Libraries in the past…. They unhitched features from libraries in the New Era - but want to force subscriptions - so no Feature Parity and no chance at new libraries…. Before someone chimes in with the comments about subscriptions being necessary for AI - why force AI on users that have voiced they don't want it?)

So enjoy your subscription, I hope those who can benefit from it do - but I am tired of seeing people go out of their way to glorify the practice, while ignoring, covering up or constantly confronting those of us who point them out as those with are "Satanic" - yes it happened LOL!

I just read a user on the forums blog that claims connection to Logos that has a great post of why people need to subscribe and how awesome it is…. The problem? The post was telling new users that they get to keep non-AI features with a 2 year subscription…. Simply not true at this time - hopefully it becomes true and as stated, I have been arguing that point…

We have had users on the Forums that seem to have been misled when it comes to subscriptions being told they can get a refund - again inaccurate and hopefully Logos works with them…. But another disadvantage of a Subscription - no refunds, even within 30 days…

So while there are benefits with a subscription, there are also currently disadvantages with it in comparison with the Golden Era model….

Side note on the affordability argument - with the old purchase option, users didn't have to pay the full price up front - Logos offered monthly payment plans that helped with affordability and the users actually owned their purchase…

It would be nice to see the purchase option restored along side the Subscriptions, with the option for purchasers to subscribe to AI if they'd like…. But not an option yet…. We'll see

I feel the need to once again make it clear that being anti Subscription ONLY - is not anti subscription… (Some refuse to or just don't understand that concept)…

Many of us that point out issues we see, have subscribed to the old subscription offerings in the past (Now, Connect, etc.)

Some of us may even subscribe and give the LFL a chance at some point - but that doesn't mean that we have to close our eyes to what we see as issues with the "New Era" or with the "Customer Service" or lack there of in the "New Era" - depending on the situation…

To be honest I am STILL waiting for an answer to a couple questions that would allow me to make my own personal decision, as well as whether I may adjust my view on this thread's subject…. I've been asking since Spring for a little communication… One member of the team is awesome, but can't answer the questions I was asking…

I wound up contacting the PE firm about it and actually did receive a brief response, that didn't necessarily give me an answer and I am waiting on a response to that… I hope I do not need to contact the PE firm again but will….

Why? Because I am FULLY invested in this platform and have spent two decades and counting with it, promoting it and presenting it…. So I am going to question, "complain", "gripe" and push! As an invested customer, I have the right to - as do we all, to share our feedback when the company is making decisions that concern us….

Much the same way many of the Accordance users who down that platform and point out its problems (which didn't happen over night), some of us long term Logosians are beginning to not recognize the company we invested in - which does not mean we want the worst for it - doesn't mean our complaints and observations are invalid, but means we care enough about the product to take the time to share feedback and fight for what made us love the platform and support it for so long!

I am still keeping track of this thread as it has some valuable information to be gain regardless of which side you are on. Just a few quick thoughts.

I clearly understand Frank's reasons for not subscribing at this point. I have also been somewhat vocal as I too hate the subscription ONLY model. Both could still happily exist side by side.

If the subscription model is so great, then why didn't everyone just subscribe to Faithlife Connect when it was available? Because the truth is that most people chose to purchase. The Connect subscription worked for some and that's great. But most didn't go for it. So the latest is now "Connect 2.0" with some twists like AI, the best being the LFL that was pushed for by multiple users and thankfully achieved.

In my case, I am one of those who prepaid the subscription anyway in good faith to get the LFL. I will definitely re-evaluate at the two year mark after I receive my LFL. So far all I have seen is an emphasis on features for new users and AI. I see nothing yet that is not AI or web based that would be included in the LFL. Not even the new Help videos. It's still early in the game but I'd like to see something I'll get to keep. The AI has its place and I've used it for a few things but it is definitely being over-hyped.

Not all of the information circulating is correct. I personally watched a Youtube video where the person stated that after two years you get to keep all the books. Not true.

Also, since I already own the Logos 10 FFS, I already own and get to keep the Automatic Translation Tool and the Scanning Print Books feature with or without a subscription.

To avoid a lot of angry new customers, Logos may want find more ways to communicate the non-refund policy on subscriptions, that subscription books are yours only while subscribed, and unless you already had a previous Logos package, you will not receive the LFL. It's easy to forget that not everyone was following the conversations in the forums when there was a lot more back and forth conversation and debate regarding the shift to subscription. Some are just finding out.

I am still holding out hope that Logos may reconsider at some point in the future and offer the option to purchase a permanent license (without the AI features of course), or at least continue to offer LFL and include new customers. Time will tell and it will come down to the numbers. They may get new users to subscribe for $10 a month who want to do basic study, but not everyone is interested in spending hundreds or thousands of dollars in books, especially if they can't continue to use the advanced features of Logos without paying.

You know why? Because this thread is fun!

Indeed :-)