Disappointed
I've been a user with Logos since about 2000-2001. I first bought the Scholars package when you still had to insert the disk into the computer to use the program. I recall I spent upwards of almost $500 for the program (I didn't really have at the time) for the program and it was only mildly helpful. A lot of "fluff" that I would never use was included with the software.
Later I had to upgrade to a Libronix system (free). That was not a very helpful system either.
Now a month and a half ago I speak to the rep. At the tune of $124/mo. for 12 mos. I upgrade to Logos 4 Platinum. I am excited. He tells me:
I am getting almost 1200 books.
I am getting the latest version and he assures me Logos is very slow releasing new versions and doesn't anticipate one for a long time.
He further assures me not to worry. I was disappointed that I had previously spent almost $500 for books and will purchase them again. He says this time all he can do is give me a 15% discount but not to worry...if I purchase the software this time I'll never need to do so again. Future upgrades will be FREE. (I didn't hear the fine print behind what he said - like overlooking the asterisk in fine print.)
Now I open Logos today. SUPRISE! Logos 5! I get mine free...and my computer has upgrades downloading. It reopens to Logos 4...(background sound: whaa...whaa...whaa...)
I don't understand. So I click the link. It tells me my upgrade is over $600.
There is some misunderstanding. I call Logos and wait 30 min. on hold to speak to a woman with a strong accent that is a little difficult to understand.
Bottom line my "free" software won't be free after all. Why?
It's the shell game. Platinum isn't simply Platinum anymore. They changed the books that come with Platinum, so now I no longer have the second tier of Logos, I now have third tier software.
Since (new) Platinum comes with different books, it wouldn't be fair to give them to me free (agreed). So I can't simply upgrade my software "for free" unless my payments go up $40/mo. Ummmmm...that ain't free.
Some in this forum are saying, "Be patient. There will be a "crossover" package. My question still is this:
1.) Will it be free?
2.) Why is Logos taking care of their POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS before their loyal customer base? I was in sales for a while. I remember in one of our
meetings they told us that it is 20 times harder to get a new customer
than to retain one. I think Logos needs to think about that.
3.) Why didn't the rep on the phone advise me of an option to wait for something called a crossover?
4.) How long will it take to roll out the crossover package?
What hurts is I might expect this from Microsoft...but not from a company that is Christian-oriented.
So my upgrade is free (unless we change the books in the package, then it isn't [betcha didn't see that comin' tee hee]).
I guess I could even see not giving a free upgrade if 1) they hadn't told me it would be free and 2) it had been years since I purchased the software. But it wasn't. It was last month!
I even see some doubletalk on the Logos site. Someone sounding like a rep for the company corrected another forum member and says, "We never said all future upgrades would be free. We said you will never have to purchase your books again." Ummmm...sir, the rep on the phone definately said future upgrades would be free. That was a MAJOR SELLING POINT from my perspective. He assured me that the only future charges would be if I wanted to purchase more books.
Today, when I asked the representative to speak to a supervisor she told me he was busy and to try calling back in A MONTH! Wow! A month? Really? Now that's customer service!
I know how much time, effort and money must come with making this software - immense. I'm not asking for something for nothing. I am just asking for what I was promised.
Disappointed and feeling mislead,
Mike
Comments
- You will never pay twice for your resources
- The basic Logos search engine has always been free and still is with L5
- The basic, free, L5 search engine has not been released for download yet.
- Logos 5 has some enhancements that use some (not free) databases. If you choose not to upgrade to L5 with all the bells & whistles, and go with the free software instead, you will not experience the full capabilities of L5
- The basic Logos search engine has always been free and still is with L5
- The basic, free, L5 search engine has not been released for download yet.
- Logos 5 has some enhancements that use some (not free) databases. If you choose not to upgrade to L5 with all the bells & whistles, and go with the free software instead, you will not experience the full capabilities of L5
I'm feeling the same way here. This is shaky ground, Logos. I'm a pastor and we're all Christians here - so this is no anonymous threat. But seriously, you're messing with a lot of loyalty. I went all in about 12 months ago for Platinum. I even pursued a big old beefy computer to drive all of it with my fat monitor on my desk. Now I'm set. But wait, I'm not set - with this Logos 5 release! Your release is so confusing and then we all learn that Platinum doesn't mean Platinum anymore, and that I would have to pay for a whole new platinum. Crossgrade isn't really doing it for me either.
I bought these hundreds and hundreds of books. Do I want to buy anymore on Logos? Probably not, if this is how it's going to be. I'd rather have books on my shelves if this is what life is going to be like from here on out. I'm trying to be a fan, I have been a fan, I paid like I'm a fan - but now you've pulled the rug out from under me. The prices for the books is often times the same as buying the book (look at my purchase history - those are the ones I'm talking about). So why would I want to continue on with you?... or brag about you to my pastor friends?
I understand why so many are upset with all the confusion. I think probably the best thing they could have done is rebranded all the base packages in Logos 5.
Let me try to offer some perspective, This past March/April I bought a IPAD 3, at a heavy investment cost to me (particularly to use Logos). So i went to reading the press conference they had a few weeks ago to learn about the Ipad mini they were bringing out, this fall and discovered that they were Refreshing the Ipad line with a fourth Generation with a better processor, connection, etc. Needless to say I was not happy as I had just less than six months ago bought the most current Ipad they had. Even in my frustration with apple, I never once thought Apple owes me a loyal customer who is heavily invested with many of their products. I bought an Ipad 3 and guess what I still have an ipad 3, just as you still have all the books from whatever package you have, that does not change. (In fact im glad i got the L4 package a 1.5 years ago because it had the Pillar commentaries and NIGTC, BDAG so on, which are no longer in the L5 base packages)
I Know we are all heavily invested with Logos, and some feel they have been misled or burned. I think we all need to take a deep breath, step back, and view things in perspective. I am not trying to antagonize anyone, but it seems like anytime something new comes people lose their minds in frustration for a brief moment.
(In fact im glad i got the L4 package a 1.5 years ago because it had the Pillar commentaries and NIGTC, BDAG so on, which are no longer in the L5 base packages)
All your points are well taken. If your package was a good deal last month, it still is. You still have it, and Logos has not taken a thing away from you.
There will be a free upgrade to the engine. But you can't expect Logos to stand still and not improve because you bought the package they sold yesterday.
I surely agree that the older Platinum with Pillar and NIGTC and BDAG was the best deal Logos ever offered. Any of us who got that should still be thankful.
Of course, we all want the latest and greatest. I am struggling with whether to upgrade. i am pretty happy with what I got, and some of the new features seem like a lot of fluff to me. Some of them seem pretty nice. Don't know what I will do. But I don't feel that Logos owes me anything more than I bought.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
Well said!
I am very disappointed as well. It seems like Logos isn't being faithful to those who have been faithful to them. I upgraded to the platinum library a few months back, and I have been adding books to my library regularly for a while. I even received an email from 2 different CSR's within the last 6 weeks asking if I was interested in some books that are on my wish list because they were discounted at the time. I passed. Now.... These books are part of the new Platinum and Diamond packages. WOW... Really??? Now I find out that my Platinum library isn't Platinum. If I want to keep my Platinum status then I can stay with L4 or pay even more for the new L5. I don't know Logos.... You really have me thinking twice about on our continued relationship.
I'm in nearly the same position, Joe. Purchased Platinum in the Spring and have been totally sidelined by this. I'll be happy with a "crossgrade" when it comes available, but I'm hoping it won't take 6 months. The new updates look impressive and I don't want to miss out on them.
I know how much time, effort and money must come with making this software - immense. I'm not asking for something for nothing. I am just asking for what I was promised.
Disappointed and feeling mislead,
Michael, thank you for such a detailed and thoughtful post. I easily placed myself in similar scenarios that occurred in my life. I also recommend you call or email Logos. I think "waiting a month" seems pretty sounds not very customer friendly and certainly is of no help to you. At the same time, it is a crazy time for Logos, and as a fellow human I know we all have limitations. But not only could you call, but try emailing Bob. He may not get to it right away, but he does get to them. it is his first name at logos dot com. i forget dan's, but it may be similar. I don't remember if he openly takes email or not.
You've identified several concerns that are very valid. Feel free to post back what you have encountered. I look forward to hearing more.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
Ok...here is what I've discovered.
The rep who sold me the software is on vacation, so I spoke to Bart (who is very friendly and helpful).
The bottom line is this:
1. There will likely be a crossover program but nobody knows when. Rolling out Logos 5 is top priority right now so it could be months or even more than a year...nobody knows.
2. Technically my rep did not lie to me (rather he told me what he thought was the truth, based upon what his superiors told him). I get the feeling that sales reps are left almost completely in the dark about when upgrades are coming out. They are all scrambling to learn just what the new features are and what books are different as they try to sell the program (bad idea). Bart had no easy way to tell me exactly how many books I got on my last purchase that are no longer available and how many books I will have total now (I should think that might be a useful sales tool).
3. In my case I had bought Platinum. But Platinum, you see, is no longer "Platinum." The new Platinum includes several books not included in the "old Platinum" but is also missing several books from the old Platinum. New Platinum is closer to the old Portfolio, but not really (???). In my case this is somewhat good because my upgrade allows me to keep all of the books in the old Platinum but also receive everything everything added to the new Platinum. (Have I lost anyone yet?)
What really attracts me to L5 is the capabilities this new software offers. It is much more powerful than 4 with some really cool features that I know will be helpful to me.
So...I reluctantly took the plunge...my payments increase $40/mo. Am I thrilled? Hardly. (This thing better write awesome sermons for me!) But I feel like I really need this to be efficient with the time I spend with my studies.
For future reference, Logos has lost my trust when they "guarantee" anything like "free upgrades." I won't even trust the software name will stay the same.
Me: "I thought future upgrades were free."
Logos: "I'm not sure what you were told. That's unfortunate." (a.k.a. it wasn't true or there was a HUGE misunderstanding)
Logos: "Um, well sir, Platinum WOULD HAVE BEEN a free upgrade, but seeing as we've changed the package so drastically, we no longer really consider Platinum to actually be Platinum, so you're gonna have to pay for it."
Me: "But it's still called Platinum."
Logos: "Well Platinum isn't Platinum anymore. Now it's Platinum...not the Platinum you have but the Platinum we currently sell."
Me: "Huh? Never mind. I want the new features. Tack $40/mo. onto my bill that I really shouldn't do." (Ugh!)
Why couldn't Logos have rolled out the crossover at the same time? It's not 100% clear when they will and though that seems to be the plan, there is no guarantee they ever will.Based upon past experience I wouldn't count on it. If and when they do...mark my words, it'll cost ya!
Why couldn't they just keep Platinum named Platinum and call this new Platinum by another name? How about even "Platinum Plus" or "Platinum 1.2" if you're so in love with retaining "Platinum"?
How confusing and frustrating. Logos 5 could have been such a wonderful roll out. Instead it's become walk through a maze of mirrors (confusion).
Like Logos, but they've lost some serious trust points with me.
Mike
Michel, I wasnt thrilled with having to buy another upgrade also, I was stuck between Silver, Gold and platinum. I ended going with the platinum, and the reason i upgraded, was because many of the books included in my new package were on my wishlist, it was cheaper for me to jump all in, then wait and purchase them individually.
I agree with you also efficiency for me was also key, and man im loving, L5, i love the speed and feel of it. I have already used many of the new features and new books. So while im hurting over the price, It has instantly helped me. I really like the sermon starter guide also, its a great way to plunge into a text with, cross references and thematic outlines on topics, and themes within verses.
May the Lord bless you.
Updates to the software so you can continue read and use your books are and will continue to be free. Logos never promised it would be available free day 1. When it's released you will be able to update your software engine, which is exactly what they have promised. You were not promised that every new feature or resource would be free. If you want the extra resources or the new features they cost. If you want to keep the resources you have and don't want any of the new features then download the engine when released for free and keep reading and searching your resources.
The same thing happened with L4, if I wanted the free engine I was able to download them (I don't think it was available the same day). I could have gotten the new features by just crossgrading. I wanted the new features and more resources so I upgraded.
Logos has always promised that we would never pay more money to continue to read and use our resources. They have never promised to freely provide every new feature.
That is understandable... but the facts are:
1) they have not announced any pure software upgrade version and costs;
2) the quote they provide on upgrade did not consider the extra books already purchased by the user. They are overcharging us for the upgrade.
3) They did not explain the various upgrade version to existing customer and allow us to choose. Their bundling with less desirable books is an unethical sales.
Shame on them.
Augustine Chow
the facts are:
Well let's check what the facts are:
1) they have not announced any pure software upgrade version and costs;
They have. Actually, the CEO, Bob Pritchett, himself has. The post is made sticky for everyone to see right at the top of General forum.
The cost of the pure software upgrade version are: USD 0.00, as in free
2) the quote they provide on upgrade did not consider the extra books already purchased by the user.
Actually I have not seen one example that would prove this true. The developers say there hasn't been one issue of this happening. There was one book on the first day where the title didn't make clear that it's a 2012 newly revised and enlarged edition. No one pays again for existing resources.
3) They did not explain the various upgrade version to existing customer and allow us to choose.Wonder what the website does, what the sales people do on the phone until late at night, what Bradley, Phil, etc. do literally around the clock and over the weekend.
Your facts are bogus.
Have joy in the Lord! 
Why couldn't they just keep Platinum named Platinum and call this new Platinum by another name? How about even "Platinum Plus" or "Platinum 1.2" if you're so in love with retaining "Platinum"?
I'm sorry for the confusion created by the package names. We've been "re-using" collection names for changing collections for many years. (We've had a "Scholar's Library" for over a decade.) The collections are always changing -- the (KF) (JG) and other letter designations reflect changed collections as books are added, removed, etc. based on user needs and publisher licenses.
This particular cycle involved much bigger changes to the collections than in the past -- we even did away with some names (like Christian Home, Bible Study Library, Leader's, etc.) and decided to standardize this time on a more obviously hierarchical value proposition: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond, etc.
This name re-use has confused some people, for which I'm sorry. Having Platinum 4 doesn't mean you can only move to Platinum 5 -- you can upgrade to Bronze 5, or any other collection you'd like. In every case you just get (and only pay for!) what's different between what you have and what you're getting.
The levels are levels of book and content collections -- there isn't anything else to a level. We could call Platinum "The Fred Collection" -- it's just a named set of resources that's a different set than Bronze ("The Joe Collection"). We named them in hierarchy just to indicate which one has more resources. But really, all the 5 generation collections have more and different resources than the 4 generation.
-- Bob
We could call Platinum "The Fred Collection"I actually kind of like that! Maybe I will just dub my L4 Portfolio "the Winston Churchill Collection."
As an owner of the Lord Chamberlain collection, I can upgrade to Churchill for only $295!! Woot!
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association
My 4 collection is now the Spurgeon (portfolio). My 5 is the Darby (silver) still paying for the spurgeon.
my only frustration is I upgraded days before 5 came out. I emailed my rep and he doesn't return my emails. He either quit or has a level of shame. I am a seminary student and will not complain about the price because of Logos I have spent 0 hours in the library.
In every case you just get (and only pay for!) what's different between what you have and what you're getting
Sorry to correct, but that is not necessarily true. When I looked to upgrade, I went to the "what's new to you" tab and looked at the resources and found in the first list 3-4 books that I currently have that I bought with Logos 4 Platnium. So I am going to have to purchase, again, those same books. One example is the New American Commentary. I know that they added some more voulmes to that since in came out in Logos 4, but the "what's new to you" tab said that I am purchasing 40 volumes. Hmmmm???? They have not added 40 volumes to that collection since Logos 4. Also the Cascadia.....I bought that with Logos 4, I have to but that again. That is just a couple of things.
I think that Logos need to stop, and not wait to make THEIR language on the web site right by their customers, but do something immediately. The language that you use on some parts of the web site are misleading and Bob needs to do something to make it right!
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
One example is the New American Commentary. I know that they added some more voulmes to that since in came out in Logos 4, but the "what's new to you" tab said that I am purchasing 40 volumes.
(I may have missed it, but I don't think this was answered here, though it's been answered in many other places.)
No, it's saying that at present you don't have the whole 40 volume set, but if you purchase that package you will. You only pay for the volumes you don't have, however, the rest have been credited.
Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.I have yet to find the Logos 5 engine for free!!!
Like Jack said: "It just has not been released yet". It will be. Just wait a few weeks.
I'll be happy with a "crossgrade" when it comes available, but I'm hoping it won't take 6 months.
The latest info is 1-2 weeks.
EDIT: The latest info just changed to 'next week if nothing unforeseen happens'.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
1.) Will it be free?
2.) Why is Logos taking care of their POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS before their loyal customer base? I was in sales for a while. I remember in one of our meetings they told us that it is 20 times harder to get a new customer than to retain one. I think Logos needs to think about that.
3.) Why didn't the rep on the phone advise me of an option to wait for something called a crossover?
4.) How long will it take to roll out the crossover package?
1. You will be able to update to the Logos 5 software for free. Doing so will not give you any new features nor new resources, so there's no hurry for you to do so. 4.6 is still supported. A 4.6 update went out as recently as Monday, I believe it was, and there are additional updates in the pipeline.
2. You'll have to talk to Bob about that. He does post frequently to the forums: http://community.logos.com/members/2130/default.aspx.
3. If you bought something from the rep and have now decided you'd rather wait for the crossover instead, Logos will undo the purchase.
4. I don't know, but I suspect it will be when the initial load on the servers dies down a bit.
I, too, am disappointed in LOGOS. From all I have read I believe did not do their research before making such a drastic shift that affects all of their long-time loyal customers in such a negative way. Talk about a move that have damaged their brand, this is it!
I have talked 12 pastors into buying LOGOS 4 this year. We were all going to go together to a training session in March of 2013. Now, I don't know if I want to mention it again. That will be another $225.00 and we would not even be learning the current software. Or maybe they will talk about LOGOS 5 and we will be sitting there with LOGOS 4. I am really disappointed we can't get an upgrade at an upgrade rate. What a bad day for LOGOS loyal customers as well as for the LOGOS brand!
Disappointed in Texas!
Jimmy
I, too, am disappointed in LOGOS. From all I have read I believe did not do their research before making such a drastic shift that affects all of their long-time loyal customers in such a negative way. Talk about a move that have damaged their brand, this is it!
I have been through three major upgrades as a customer with them, and I would say that especially the last two have always been accompanied by growing pains. The Logos 4 you love and recommend was quite vilified and abhorred by others. I remember myself going through a steep learning curve, and this may sound strange, but I experienced a kind of grief or loss over the switch from 3 to 4. After about 2 months, however, I loved it. Your experience may be different, i'm just hoping to normalize that the change that happens usually causes upheaval, no matter how careful and prepared they are. And they find that they sometimes could have done a launch better. Makes me think of some of my attempts at switching church programs . . .
have talked 12 pastors into buying LOGOS 4 this year. We were all going to go together to a training session in March of 2013. Now, I don't know if I want to mention it again. That will be another $225.00 and we would not even be learning the current software. Or maybe they will talk about LOGOS 5 and we will be sitting there with LOGOS 4.
My guess is that by that time, all of you will have some version of the Logos 5, even if it is the basic engine only. And Mo will probably be aware that not all of Camp Logos 1 people will have Gold or higher, so he will spend time with those features that most all share. Camp Logos 2 might get into the more nitty gritty. I'd ask him straight up, however, rather than taking my word for it. I'm just guessing based on what they have done in the past. There is still a lot of similarity between 4 and 5, so that even having 4 will not render a Camp Logos unhelpful. much will be the same. That said, with a free engine, or minimal cross grade as options in the near future, by the time Camp Logos rolls around, you'll all be on the same page.
I am kind of envious you got that many guys together to do a camp. sounds like a lot of fun. I always went be myself, even though i tried to get guys to go with me.
Regardless, Mo is top knotch, and will work with you. His aim is to be helpful.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
Jimmy,
Dan (see comments in the forum) assuures me a crossover package will be available in the next couple of weeks. It won't probably have the same indexing features of L5 but the "feel" should be similar.
Don't know....seminar is a tough call. I'm pretty sure they will teach from a L5 standpoint but I'd be surprised if your instructor didn't include, "Now for you guys still using L4, this is how you do it..."
Patience, deep breaths...
Mike
, "Now for you guys still using L4, this is how you do it..."
Patience, deep breaths...
Mike
Patience is the key to ALL good deals! My wife and I dated for 7 years before marriage! 
So my upgrade is free (unless we change the books in the package, then it isn't [betcha didn't see that comin' tee hee]).
The software upgrade itself will be free, it's just not released on its own yet. But for the low, low cost of "waiting a little while" it will be.
Much of what's cool in the software upgrade, though, works in collaboration with some massive new databases. The 10 new databases are presently sold as part of new collections, which also contain lots of new books. Eventually we'll offer other purchase configurations, too, allowing many different purchase prices. You can get close to that now by "upgrading" your Platinum 4 to a Gold 4; you keep all your existing Platinum 4 content, and get the new databases and some new books.
If you have the logos logo under your name do you work for them?
He's the boss
how come hes being really sarcastic?
Well, I feel like a lot of you must feel: really put upon by Logos. There's no way in the world I'm going to spend over $600 for an upgrade when it should come free. And the books they offer are of no interest to me. Logos is a company I'd come to trust and still believe to be Christian-based; but honesty compels me to say that there's truly been a great chasm of misunderstanding in what most of us understood would happen when new software upgrades were made available.
As for the upgrade to Logus 5, thanks, but no thanks until the "crossover" come out, whatever that means and whenever it happens.
Lonnie Ritchie
If you have the logos logo under your name do you work for them?
correct, they are employees or THE employer.
BUT, the ones with a star (like for me), we are just regular folks like you, not employees. We love Logos, hang out on the forums, try to help where we can, but we don't live or work in Bellingham--although technically we COULD live there. I live in MO.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
BUT, the ones with a star (like for me), we are just regular folks like you, not employees. We love Logos, hang out on the forums, try to help where we can, but we don't live or work in Bellingham--although technically we COULD live there. I live in MO.
Dan, you could invite over for lunch one of these days, or adopt me for a day, so that I could have an address in Bellingham. [:D]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
Amongst all the disappointments i would like to say that logos is the absolute best bible software out there and that it has helped me in so many ways. I couldn't imagine not having logos as part of my study life!!
Yes they do why
Bob,
Sorry, guess I wrote that line when I was still a little upset. Not very Christ-like maybe. Sorry again.
I still believe though that if you are going top totally revamp all of the books in a package, just call it something different...like "Platinum 1.2" or "Platinum Pro" so I can upgrade mine and they can buy the newer package.
Thanks,
Mike
Bob,
Sorry, guess I wrote that line when I was still a little upset. Not very Christ-like maybe. Sorry again.
I still believe though that if you are going top totally revamp all of the books in a package, just call it something different...like "Platinum 1.2" or "Platinum Pro" so I can upgrade mine and they can buy the newer package.
Thanks,
Mike
Yeah, the hindsight on this is pretty clear now. On reusing the names, Bob Pritchett has said, "This name re-use has confused some people, for which I'm sorry."
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you.
Thanks for updating us. I have a question of clarification. Looking at L5, I want some (or all) of the new databases, but I really don't need many new books. However, I am considering an\ slight upgrade (scholar's to starter or bronze), funds are limited right now. My question is that if I do this, will the databases NOT offered in bronze be available individually (I think the first day I was seeing them around $20 for some of them) but I suspect due to volume they were removed, etc.)?
will the databases NOT offered in bronze be available individually
Not individually, but as Phil stated in the quote I gave above:
We're still working on the exact contents that the MCs will include. The smaller one, which might lack one or two features, will probably be between $75 and $150. The larger one, with all the features plus a few core resources, will probably be between $150 and $300, depending on which version of the software you're moving from. For Logos 4 users, it'll be on the lower end of those ranges. For Logos 3, it'll be a bit more expensive. For Logos 2 users, even more.
For Logos 5 Starter to Silver users who are just looking to pick up the missing features, it'll be significantly lower. Dynamic pricing will apply to both products, so the ownership discount will be applied as appropriate.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
I don't understand. So I click the link. It tells me my upgrade is over $600.
There is some misunderstanding.
Michel, I think you are misunderstanding what is going on. Here are a few facts:
Maybe it could have been introduced differently. Say, L5 free version (engine only) and L5 Plus (including all the new databases and graphics.) I do not think it is immoral or unethical fr Logos to charge for new resources (books) or for new databases that sweeten the L5 experience. I hope you check out what is new in the new L5 packages and reconsider the value for the money. If it is not for you then just be patient for a few more weeks until the basic engine gets released. I wish you well.
)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Super Tramp Wrote:
"There is some misunderstanding...I do not think it is immoral or unethical fr Logos to charge for new resources (books) or for new databases that sweeten the L5 experience. I hope you check out what is new in the new L5 packages and reconsider the value for the money."
1. I do not believe I either stated or implied it was "immoral or unethical fr Logos to charge for new
resources (books)."
2.) If I was given the impression that the operating software upgrades would be free, I would be lead to believe that "databases that sweeten the...experience" would be included in that.
By the way I have upgraded and am looking forward to the new features.See my next post to update folks.
Smiles,
Mike
Once you work past the user reactions, hype, frustration, anger, disappointment, etc. etc. what Super Tramp says is spot on.
It's is as others have said the process and or methodology or philosophy of Logos which leaves me speechless time and time again. I am sorry to say I am sick and tired of hearing the phrase "I am sorry". If this phrase was counted up and paid for in cents and dollars I fear I'd be a rich man but the phrase itself, I am sorry to say [;)] has been maligned and gutted of meaning. Here's a one-liner for you; "a throw away phrase in a throw away society, I am sorry to say."
I've looked at the options and have come back to Logos, there are no serious contenders IMHO.
Philosophy of Logos: This saddens me a great deal. We, the consumers, have been, I fear, turned into a commodity which is being consumed to ensure the survival of the Logos beast. I feel we as Logos "users" have been comodified into something "other" and are simply being exploited to serve personal gain and ambition all in the name of the Logos beast (even religion). As Logos has said, they have to sell books (translate "grow") to survive. Personally I think this is a floored strategy on the part of Logos. Unrestrained growth in a finite world is unsustainable. Period! The model needs to change. As a theologian I find this approach strangely repugnant. It makes me feel disappointed, saddened, diminished as a human being and child of God. This is not God's way! God's renewing Word continues to motivate me to strive for something better. To strive towards a goal which brings out the best in me/us, towards that something more than we thought we could ever possibly be by God's grace. But never at the "expense' of others. Unrestrained consumerism diminishes people, it expends people, it does not build them up. It seems I/we need to reclaim this dignity once again and it grieves me to say but I just can't see how the Logos business philosophy is achieving this in me/us. Eg. the amazing number of heated and even angry postings in this forum is a good indicator of what I am trying to convey here.
Electronic Library: This was a decision I made many years ago: This is a given. Space and the luxury of space for a large hard copy library in my context, hot humid, tropical climate, is not practical or viable. The ability to cross reference / search large numbers of books is nothing short of a miracle in modern technology and Logos is way out in front IMHO with a huge and rapidly growing library of books available at our fingertips. I still remember the awe and amazement on the face of a doctoral colleague seeing a search on the whole of Luther's works unfold before his eyes in a matter of seconds when to that point he'd spent months (literally) going through just the first half of Luther's Works to glean the research material he needed.
Future Direction: SO what is the way forward? There are no easy answers. This is the nature of the beast. [6] My approach after considerable angst is to mitigate my subscription to the Logos business philosophy as much as possible. "Cross grades" from now on. No "Upgrades" for me. I don't need 3,850 books. I'll only ever read maybe 100-200 of the total number of books in my entire Logos library in my entire lifetime and of the total only a small handful are truly relevant to my needs. The rest are just wasted space and wasted resources. The money could be better served by being used elsewhere. A 500 or 1000 or a xxx thousand book library is exactly that a Library. It's the stuff of Libraries but totally unnecessary for my personal use. We the Logos consumers need to ask ourselves is all this really necessary?
A case in point. Humanity has more information available at its fingertips than any generation in the history of man and what has this gained for us? Be honest with yourself? Take any newspaper read it and what do you see? Missionary work has opened my eyes to the "phantasy" of western consumerism on all levels. People here where I work, people who have so little are teaching me that contentment with what we have and a sure faith in God ARE enough! Indeed more than enough!
In conclusion: I'm sticking with Logos bible software. It's not perfect but it has enabled me to reduce my hard copy library to the size of a laptop. Truly amazing stuff! But I am making a conscious decision to mitigate my involvement in what I've already described above. I'm claiming this for myself and not "buying" into an unsustainable, unrestrained consumerism which I feel only compounds the problem we face in the west. Unrestrained consumerism on every level is literally killing us in the west and this is not what I want to pass on as a model in Christian life and living to my family and those around me.
With this rethinking on my part I am content with the Logos beast because the window is still open in the Logos business model for me to distance myself from a consumerist type business model. I.e. I can upgrade to the new Logos 5 engine for free and I can cross grade without having to "upgrade" my library with another 200+ unnecessary books and another serious hit to my limited funds.
But, and this is a clear warning to Logos, if Logos closes this option off, if I can't opt out of what I see is a consumerist business model I'll be selling my library. I choose to distance myself and refuse to be part of any such imposition by others on my self and person. I don't want to be party to the problem. I choose to offer and show to others there is a better way to life and living which breeds contentment and peace like nothing else. The Jesus way (from Eugene Peterson's book of the same title).
Blessings to you all in Jesus name.
Simon
Nan
Thailand
Thank you Simon.
Question/thoughts for others: What is all this mess about data bases?
You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?
What are they and how are they not a function of the software searching the data of OUR books?
It's a question, I don't know the answer, so I'm asking.
I really don't like being forced to but a bunch of titles I don't need, nor want, just to get the full function of the software and, if the software is not fully functional without the Databases, how is it the databases are not part of the software?
Just asking .
BTW, I probably use approx. 40-50 percent of the titles in my library, if that, the rest are just junk to me after owning them for a while.
Sadly, I must say: I don't think I am very wise.
You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?
That is absolutely not true, and has been refuted numerous times on these forums. Why do you insist on publishing this?
Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!
You have to buy thousands of dollars worth of things we don't need, will probably never read or reference in order to get these "data bases"?
There must be a dozen or more posts on these forums directly addressed at you, all explaining that that you do not have to spend any "thousands of dollars" to get these databases. All you need is the Crossgrade. So why do you keep spreading this misinformation? Do you really think it's nice to use Logos own forums to slander them?
What are they and how are they not a function of the software searching the data of OUR books?
The databases are content, just like your books are content. They're not "a function of the software". They don't search your books. They are searched, just like your books are. The software is free, content costs.
if the software is not fully functional without the Databases, how is it the databases are not part of the software?
The software is 100% functional without any of the databases, just as it is 100% functional without a Hebrew Bible, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or the Works of Luther. Yes, you can't do a Hebrew Bible search without a Hebrew Bible, you can't follow a link to the CCC or read Luther's sermons, if you don't have those resources, but that doesn't mean the software isn't functional, just that you haven't bought the content you need to do those things. In the same way the software can't search a database if you don't have that database. It's as simple as that. You don't expect Logos to give you books for free, do you, so why do you expect them to give you databases for free?
If you don't understand what these databases are or do, why are you so desperate to get them? Two weeks ago you hadn't heard of them, and even now you don't seem to know what to do with them, yet you behave like you can't live without them.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
Disappointed too. My upgrade cost me about US 303 which is equivalent to RM(Malaysian Dollars) 1000. Just too much. Besides, I may not want the additional books in the upgrade, There should be an option to choose those books. I just need to upgrade to the next operating system with my existing collection. And that should not cost me too much...
Disappointed too. My upgrade cost me about US 303 which is equivalent to RM(Malaysian Dollars) 1000. Just too much. Besides, I may not want the additional books in the upgrade, There should be an option to choose those books. I just need to upgrade to the next operating system with my existing collection. And that should not cost me too much...
There will be a cross grade option soon, which is what you want. If you have already paid to upgrade to Logos 5 you should be able to request a refund and either go with the free engine or purchase the lower cost minimal cross grade with the new data sets that run some things.
I just need to upgrade to the next operating system with my existing collection. And that should not cost me too much...
Hi, Kong. you will be able to get the L5 engine for free, it is just not available yet without a base package purchase. If you can wait, you'll get it.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
I've upgraded to L5.
It cost $40/mo. for 12 mo. additional.
I like what I've seen so far.
I still feel as though there was some miscommunication. Free updates on software sounds like free upgrades. I think that is where my misunderstanding lies. I will accept the blame this time, but I feel reps in the future need to make the distinction clear.
My payments will cost me $480.
The number of books I had went from 1,236 in L4 to a total of 1,731 in L5. If the books are any good (which I'm sure many are) I got a very good buy.
I also received all of the newest and more updated features of L5. It has some really powerful tools!
Looking forward to the L5 experience. Live and learn. Love and forget.
Search for the truth and sell it not.
Mike
Well...after almost another hour on the phone today (which I am still on hold for a senior tech), it appears that part of my frustration stems from the software not working right to start with.
When I explained what is happening, I was told that the software does not do what I am trying to do. I referenced the tech to the wiki and a forum thread that explained exactly what I am trying to do (which is a simple search of "My Content" such as personal books, handouts, clippings, etc.).
The tech told me to use a rebuild index command...and voila...the search worked. So, reasonably, I ask "do I have to do this each time that I work on a resource?" "No. It will automatically reindex"
"Okay, so, let met test this...." Create a new handout, go to search, nothing there. Wait a few minutes, try again, nothing there. Type in the the rebuild personal book index again, and bam, shows up. "It shows up now, so again, do I have to do this each time?" "No"
Next level tech support - logs in to remote assistance. We go over the challenges. He says same thing - "it reindexes automatically." Creates a couple of references, waits...no reindex. Types in command...no reindex. Logs out, back in...no reindex. "Can I place you on hold for a minute or two?" 15 minutes later, I hit search again...resource is there. He comes back to the phone, and sort of laughs and says "I thought indexing was immediate, but apparently it does it when we don't have a lot going on with the servers." Understandable, but not when something shows up on the My Content after this last pop up of resources that I created three weeks ago. No answer to that inquiry.
He was extremely helpful, however, in showing me a few things that will help me in the software that I had no idea that it was capable of doing, so that was the plus of being on the phone for close to 4 hours this weekend so far.
The downfall...after speaking now to six different people, I have had at least 3 to 4 items that I have been told "the software is limited in that particular request, and is something that would be nice to see." Yes it would.
Still undecided on what I am going to do with the software (learn to use what I have even though it isn't what I thought I had, wait to see how much the crossgrade is, then make a decision, upgrade now, or just get a refund and go with another program).
I also spent some time comparing the "New to you" resources and something is clearly wrong with the engine that compares this. The majority of the "New to you" items that are highlighted as being in the Silver upgrade are already in Logos 4 Silver.
But many of them have been updated and show as new. There are a number of threads which discuss this
Are there any specifics you can mention to check whether this is the issue?
The downfall...after speaking now to six different people, I have had at least 3 to 4 items that I have been told "the software is limited in that particular request, and is something that would be nice to see." Yes it would.
Still undecided on what I am going to do with the software (learn to use what I have even though it isn't what I thought I had, wait to see how much the crossgrade is, then make a decision, upgrade now, or just get a refund and go with another program).
The forums are a good place to ask specific capability questions. I am not questioning the training and experience of the techs by saying this, but sometimes another user has a different angle on a problem or can show you a work-around to get close to what you want. If there is a specific function or piece of info you'd like to have you might start a new thread and ask for help with that.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
The number of books I had went from 1,236 in L4 to a total of 1,731 in L5. If the books are any good (which I'm sure many are) I got a very good buy.
I also received all of the newest and more updated features of L5. It has some really powerful tools!
[Y] About 500 new resources for $500. How can that not be a good deal?
Remember that you have 30 days to decide. If you don't like what you got, you can call and get your money back within 30 days.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
I know how much time, effort and money must come with making this
software - immense. I'm not asking for something for nothing. I am just
asking for what I was promised.Disappointed and feeling mislead,
Welcome to the new Logos, whose need for income is much more important than our need for a promised working product. Do I sound sarcastic, you bet, I feel your pain and have been very disappointed in this so-called "Christian" company since my upgrade to L4 when it was first released and never completely delivered (Mac version). Now we've got new promises and a new product. Move forward at your own risk or count your losses and move on, there are products that are powerful enough for most and work as advertised. I'm not sure I'm willing to waste any more time or money with this one.
have been very disappointed in this so-called "Christian" company
I have held my peace long enough. Now I must respond.
Knowing that you are an active Accordance user and have promoted that application is previous posts on the forums, I would take your evaluation with a grain whole bag of salt. Furthermore, you are way off base in judging the motivation of others.
As had been frequently noted in these forums, there is no such thing as a "Christian Company". A company is a thing; it cannot trust Christ Jesus as Savior. There can only be companies which are run by Christians.
A company is a thing; it cannot trust Christ Jesus as Savior. There can only be companies which are run by Christians.Mitt Romney strongly disagrees with you. He says "Corporations are people, My friend".
A company is a thing; it cannot trust Christ Jesus as Savior. There can only be companies which are run by Christians.Mitt Romney strongly disagrees with you. He says "Corporations are people, My friend".
I do not have to agree with everything he says to vote for him—or the other guy [:D]
[quote]Mitt Romney strongly disagrees with you. He says "Corporations are people, My friend".
Legally corporations are persons, but clearly they are not persons as to how we normally use the word.
I know how much time, effort and money must come with making this
software - immense. I'm not asking for something for nothing. I am just
asking for what I was promised.Disappointed and feeling mislead,
Welcome to the new Logos, whose need for income is much more important than our need for a promised working product. Do I sound sarcastic, you bet, I feel your pain and have been very disappointed in this so-called "Christian" company since my upgrade to L4 when it was first released and never completely delivered (Mac version). Now we've got new promises and a new product. Move forward at your own risk or count your losses and move on, there are products that are powerful enough for most and work as advertised. I'm not sure I'm willing to waste any more time or money with this one.
Hi Dennis--what spurred you on to buy Logos in the first place. Since--if it is true, as Jack stated--that you use Accordance, what was it about Logos that you decided to invest in it?
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
Hi Dennis--what spurred you on to buy Logos in the first place. Since--if it is true, as Jack stated--that you use Accordance, what was it about Logos that you decided to invest in it?
Dan, glad you asked. I have been a Logos user for many years and absolutely loved the program and all it could do, it was the best in my opinion and I openly shared that with many of my friends. That all changed when I made the switch from Windows PC's to Mac's as my primary PC of choice. I don't regret that change and in the beginning I ran Window XP on my macs in a virtual window just to use Logos 3. I was one of the first to upgrade to Logos 4 when it was announced and was very excited that it would finally be a product for both platforms, identical in form and function. I worked through Alpha releases, Beta releases, and final releases up to last December when I could wait no more, my patience had run out, I had to find something that would work properly and efficiently on the Mac. So, I chose to move to another Bible study program written specifically for Mac's basically doubling my investment and learning a new system which I am still getting used to. I have not quit using Logos as there were always great deals in community pricing that I would bid on and purchase and these are great for what they add but I could no longer rely on my old favorite work horse Bible study program to do the job for me and that is probably what leads me to rant as I do, extreme disappointment in something I used to love so much. I will admit to you and to all that I have let my disappointment cloud my judgement and for that I apologize. I don't want to say goodbye to Logos, I've always thought of it as a great product and the company as a great company but I cannot ignore all we were promised with Logos 4 which never came to fruition and now I am being presented the opportunity to upgrade to the latest and greatest with some of the same promises and though I am tempted I just don't know if I'm ready to go through it all again and continue to be disappointed. I know all of you don't want to have to read my rants again if Logos 5 doesn't live up to it's promises. I'll just wait and see what happens.
Hi Dennis--what spurred you on to buy Logos in the first place. Since--if it is true, as Jack stated--that you use Accordance, what was it about Logos that you decided to invest in it?
Dan, glad you asked. I have been a Logos user for many years and absolutely loved the program and all it could do, it was the best in my opinion and I openly shared that with many of my friends. That all changed when I made the switch from Windows PC's to Mac's as my primary PC of choice. I don't regret that change and in the beginning I ran Window XP on my macs in a virtual window just to use Logos 3. I was one of the first to upgrade to Logos 4 when it was announced and was very excited that it would finally be a product for both platforms, identical in form and function. I worked through Alpha releases, Beta releases, and final releases up to last December when I could wait no more, my patience had run out, I had to find something that would work properly and efficiently on the Mac. So, I chose to move to another Bible study program written specifically for Mac's basically doubling my investment and learning a new system which I am still getting used to. I have not quit using Logos as there were always great deals in community pricing that I would bid on and purchase and these are great for what they add but I could no longer rely on my old favorite work horse Bible study program to do the job for me and that is probably what leads me to rant as I do, extreme disappointment in something I used to love so much. I will admit to you and to all that I have let my disappointment cloud my judgement and for that I apologize. I don't want to say goodbye to Logos, I've always thought of it as a great product and the company as a great company but I cannot ignore all we were promised with Logos 4 which never came to fruition and now I am being presented the opportunity to upgrade to the latest and greatest with some of the same promises and though I am tempted I just don't know if I'm ready to go through it all again and continue to be disappointed. I know all of you don't want to have to read my rants again if Logos 5 doesn't live up to it's promises. I'll just wait and see what happens.
Dennis, thanks for your genuine and thorough reply. I get what it's like to be so frustrated, I've been there myself. As for Logos and Mac, you are not the first to be very frustrated. I don't use Mac, but I would feel it a bit more as you are, if my primary machine happened to be the one where Logos didn't perform as well, especially after investing a lot of money into it. I also appreciate your candor about your own perceptions of how you have expressed that in the forum. I do grieve a bit when something I love (Logos), but more importantly--when the frustration with the program seems to be conflated with the motives of the people who are Logos. I have experienced them as dedicated and responsive men and women, even if all of my wishes have not been met soon enough, or not at all. I don't say that to dismiss anyone's complaints, including yours. I hold both realities in tension: unrealized expectations, the blessings that the software does bring, and the real people who are Logos.
fwiw, I have heard that Mac performance in 5 is much better. maybe when the free engine comes out, it will improve your own experience.
Thanks for posting.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
I will admit to you and to all that I have let my disappointment cloud my judgement and for that I apologize. I don't want to say goodbye to Logos,
Accepted.
May I make a recommendation? When the Minimum Crossgrade is released—soon, but don't know how soon—purchase that. If L5 dod not live up to your expectations, take advantage of Logos' generous return policy.
I read through a lot of these posts...accept the boring stuff and the bantering...here's the bottom line for me. They tell me it's going to cost me a little over 300 to upgrade. Yes, I get it...the engine is free and if that's all I want, no worries. But I don't want my Bible software running ahead of me so far that it will...and IT WILL...get too far out of reach. Someone compared it to a Rolls Royce and a Chevy (although I would have least said Honda!!). I really don't need seat-warmers in my Bible software. I know some of you (especially the Logos people) are going to be real excited about a lot of "cool" new features...and I admit, new stuff is cool once you get to using it. It's just that I attached myself to this particular program and it really bugs me that every there years or so they want to extract another upgrade fee in the form of $300 from me to keep me up with the cool stuff, after telling me all the good reasons not to buy hard copies of my commentaries and other books. Again, I get the free "engine thing" in a few weeks. But again, $300 to stay up with the cool features. There are some commentaries and other resources I would rather put that money towards...forgive me if I sound cheap, but...well...sorry! I think I paid 19.99 for the new Apple OS program. That was relatively painless. Could we take a lesson from these guys...small increments? Who cares what "color" my edition is now, bronze or blue! And again, sooner or later the next new engine isn't going to work with the "old program." Yes, I'm somewhat irritated and really it is okay, folks, to be irritated. I don't expect Bob, or Dan, or anybody from Logos to change what they're doing...I just have to rethink if this is what I want to continue doing every three years or so. Especially in light of the fact that there is so much more free stuff popping up on the web these days! I just think, Bob, Dan and company (and this is obviously just my opinion) that maybe you are leaving some of us behind who are perfectly fine with a good running Honda!
Hi Dennis
Again, I get the free "engine thing" in a few weeks. But again, $300 to stay up with the cool features
Just to clarify. The Minimal Crossgrade (not yet available but should be shortly) will provide all / most of the "cool" features for probably less than $100.
Details at http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx
Graham
When you say the minimal crossgrade should be available "shortly", does that mean days, weeks, months?
When you say the minimal crossgrade should be available "shortly", does that mean days, weeks, months?
All I know is the information in the post to which I linked.
In it Bob Pritchett states:
"- Yes, but when? We're not sure, but it won't be a terribly long wait -- though it may feel that way if you've watched the Logos 5 videos! I know it's hard to wait when it looks (and is!) so cool...."
That's all we have at the moment.
When you say the minimal crossgrade should be available "shortly", does that mean days, weeks, months?
This seems to be the question that I would like to see answered. It's hard for me to believe they can't provide general guidance on when this should be available.
I just think, Bob, Dan and company (and this is obviously just my opinion) that maybe you are leaving some of us behind who are perfectly fine with a good running Honda!
You puzzle me. No one is forcing you to upgrade. If you are content with what you have, why upgrade? L4 will continue to work just like it does now indefinitely. In fact, Bob has stated that development on L4 will continue. So pardon me if I do not understand what upsets you so much.
If Logos does not continue to move forward, they become stagnant and someone else will take their place.
I think I paid 19.99 for the new Apple OS program.
Frankly, you are comparing Apples to oranges. What is the relationship to the cost of an OS upgrade to the cost of a Logos upgrade?
Again, I get the free "engine thing" in a few weeks. But again, $300 to stay up with the cool features. There are some commentaries and other resources I would rather put that money towards...forgive me if I sound cheap, but...well...sorry! I think I paid 19.99 for the new Apple OS program. That was relatively painless. Could we take a lesson from these guys...small increments? Who cares what "color" my edition is now, bronze or blue!
Something to consider: Apple makes their money on the sale of hardware. Logos doesn't have that option. They make money by selling resources, which includes books and "features" with "data sets." Resources with copyright's sill in effect mean that the largest portion of what you are paying is going to the publisher and author. When Amazon sells you a book, their obligation is over (other than hosting the title on their servers). When Logos sells you a resource, they continue to provide additional functionality. If you don't buy new books, Logos is providing this benefit to you for free. How will Logos stay in business if people don't purchase new resources? How will they stay in business if they don't sell these new features to existing customers?
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!
I agree. I sure would hate to see this company be like everyone else.
God Bless - Jeremiah 29:11
I have come in late here only recently finding out about Logos 5 recently. I apologise if this repeats some earlier points but I find it difficult to absorb all the points in this forum item. I too would be reluctant to move to L5. It is not the cost so much as all newer software costs something. There are other my reason for my caution which feeds my disappointment.
I have still not mastered L4. Having also spent $$$ on some of the training aids which I am still working through I feel moving to L5 would be a waste of money let alone the daunting task of trying to master new processes all together if the change from L3 to L4 is any gauge.
I was somewhat taken back by the what appeared to me a sudden appearance of L5. It may have been announced earlier but I do not read forums regularly because I find a number difficult to appreciate. It is a little off putting when the time between versions of the software is a lot sooner than from when prepublications are offered to when they become available.
While not completely L5, there are associated issues with Logos which I find frustrating which don't appear to being addressed. If you change your email login the count of forum entries restarts. You email address cannot be changed on your home page. The website still does not recognise all the items you purchase particularly those broken from collections. After shopping on line and you add to cart when you click on more shopping it sends you back to the beginning of the list not to the last point. (If you have just been browsing through pages of items and come upon an item you have not seen or known about before this is very annoying). When you change your email you get multiple emails for the same thing. You get offers for items you already have. You cannot get a deal for collections that include items you already have. I can understand that somethings particularly bigger things have priority but when minor things are not looked at over a period of time one becomes frustrated at least.
These frustrations together with my earlier reservations means I will also wait.
Colin
reluctant to move to L5 .... I have still not mastered L4. Having also spent $$ on some of the training aids which I am still working through I feel moving to L5 would be a waste of money
Colin,
no need to worry: L4 is still working today as it did yesterday, Logos hasn't stopped the development - they fixed many bugs and introduced new features to the latest L4 version just a week ago and are continuing development - a new beta is underway. So you may choose to stay with L4 for the moment and there's nothing wrong with it from either side.
I was somewhat taken back by the what appeared to me a sudden appearance of L5. It may have been announced earlier but I do not read forums regularly
There have been rumours about L5 for quite some time, including the officially released look-into-the-future papers for Faithlife that showed integration to L5. However, what's the problem?
While not completely L5, there are associated issues with Logos which I find frustrating .....
The issues you state all refer to functionality of the Logos website - some are known shortcomings of it, some look to me as if they were fixed some time ago. Since this is totally unrelated to L5, I'd suggest you discuss these in the website subforum if you're interested in the current state of affairs and possibly an answer from the Logos people responsible for that.
Have joy in the Lord!
If my memory is correct concerning databases and datasets, A dataset contains the resultant data of a search performed on a database to aid in speed of retrieval of requested data per a particular dataset. In other words some of the work has already been done for you and put in a more convenient and speedier place for retrieval.
Thank you SMack and SHotchkiss for your posts.
SHotchkiss, I too am in IT, and I also don't understand this mess. I create servers all day long, I support Oracle, SQL, Windows Servers, Cisco gear, NAS devices, Linux servers, phone systems, high availability clusters, and internet connections.
All this technology and automation, and from Logos we're told the high prices we pay is for indexing and single pane of glass.
I'm baffled by the idea that in order to get functionality from the program we have to buy these NEW AND IMPROVED base sets, but then to justify the huge cost increase that the new sets garner, we're told it is because of all the added literary resources. This seems inconsistent. Why not just keep the base packages the same, with no additional books, and roll the features up into the new base packages with all the old books and give the upgrade to the current customers for free?
The program has now ceased to be free, and now is a pay for app.
Logos seems to be going down the same frustrating route that EMC, SAP, Oracle, IBM, and every other frustrating company that has been attempting to eek every penny out of every customer's pocket and playing games with the customers because the "loyalty" is so strong they just can.
A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.
I too have cancelled all my pre-pubs and community bids.
A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.
Dear Ryan,
I appreciate that this thread is long, but it would be to your advantage to review some of the responses in the posts that proceed your own. You have raised a point which has been addressed previously. You have raised concerns which have been dismissed as factually incorrect.
For absolute clarity, Logos have advised that they will release both a minimal crossgrade and the L5 engine at no cost (i.e. free). The minimal crossgrade will provide you with the functionality of L5 at a lower cost. The L5 engine will provide you with the software, but not the new added functionality.
Alternatively, you are at liberty to continue to use L4 indefinitely. L4 is and continues to be supported. Indeed, I understand that further service releases are planned.
Blessings [:D]
Why not just keep the base packages the same, with no additional books, and roll the features up into the new base packages with all the old books and give the upgrade to the current customers for free?
Logos is not the only company in this mix. The publishers who own the copyrights to the resources can—and often do—require Logos to pull their packages from the base packages and sell them separately.
The program has now ceased to be free
Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.
Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.
I have yet to find the Logos 5 engine for free!!!
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
The program has now ceased to be freeNot true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.
A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.For absolute clarity, Logos have advised that they will release both a minimal crossgrade and the L5 engine at no cost (i.e. free). The minimal crossgrade will provide you with the functionality of L5 at a lower cost. The L5 engine will provide you with the software, but not the new added functionality.
I, too, am very disappointed to learn that Logos 5 requires an upgrade charge of $470.04. After purchasing the base system, Scholar's Library Gold in my case, and many additional books, I am not inclined to pay again for the new features/functions of the basic system. Upgrades to the base system should be free. I'd also add that the Mac version leaves a lot to be desired--it's not an intuitive user experience and I'm not close to mastering the software despite having the program for several years now.
I, too, am very disappointed to learn that Logos 5 requires an upgrade charge of $470.04.
To get "all" of the new features etc costs a maximum of $160.
But please make sure that you are logged in to the website with your usual Logos 4 credentials. - you may discover that you will receive a (slight?) depending on previous Base set/collection etc decrease in that price. Some with "gi-normous" collections have received significant deductions to the price of that "minimum cross-grade" - while another user reported that he only would receive a deduction of $8.
Regards, SteveF
Thank you for the information, Steve. To all respondents: thank you all for the feedback. I was not aware of several alternative packages, e.g., "Minimum Crossgrade," "Core Datasets" and the free version coming next year. And thanks for the Mac tips.
Upgrades to the base system should be free.
Next year Logos will freely offer the Logos Bible Software 5 engine, which can use all Logos 4 features plus use all resources from Logos 4. Caveat: without a minimal crossgrade or base package purchase, the new Logos 5 features lack appropriate data for use. Thankful for Minimal Crossgrade addition to upgrade page => http://www.logos.com/upgrade
Personally choose to upgrade to Logos 5 Portfolio, which included a number of resources on my wish list. The delta increase from Diamond to Portfolio was less than 10 % of the combined regular price for the resources, which were in my wish list.
I'd also add that the Mac version leaves a lot to be desired--it's not an intuitive user experience and I'm not close to mastering the software despite having the program for several years now.
Logos 4 and Logos 5 have a unique set of User Interface conventions that are a bit different than OS X and Windows: e.g. Documents.
Thankful for Logos 5 full screen on OS X 10.8.2 along with being faster than Logos 4 Mac. Logos 5.0a SR-1 has the fewest feature parity issues yet between Windows and OS X along with improving User Interface consistency, which is appreciated when switching platforms.
Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Getting_Started_with_Logos that has a number of Tips for Learning Logos => http://wiki.logos.com/Getting_Started_with_Logos#Learning_Logos Personally planning to participate in a Camp Logos in April 2013, which includes an expectation of learning more about using Logos effectively.
Thankful for many friendly forum discussions about Logos Bible Software: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn: e.g. Logos Hebrew Morphology has 35 stem variations. Thankful for resource => http://www.logos.com/product/3438/learning-biblical-hebrew-a-new-approach-using-discourse-analysis that is included in several packages: Verbum Capstone, Logos 5 Diamond, and Logos 5 Portfolio.
Keep Smiling [:)]
Mike,
I would suggest you contact Dan Prichett. He is the CEO of Logos and is very open to hearing your concerns. I don't have his email at this minute, but I'm sure someone else will post it.
OT:
Actually, AFAIK, Dan is the brother (and VP of Logos) of the CEO, which is Bob. But both are, I think, open for customer concerns.
Have joy in the Lord!
A slight correction: Bob Pritchett is the CEO (and creator) of Logos Bible software. Dan Pritchett is the VP of Sales (and Bob's brother.) Both are very accessible and care about keeping customers happy. Here are their email addresses:
Bob@Logos.com
Dan@Logos.com
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Thanks for the correction.