Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!
Comments
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Tim Engwer said:
I have already bought the Silver edition and love the new content - Good Job! If I understand you correctly the Silver edition will be reconfigured to include all the new features some of which I do not have since I upgraded a week ago. What does this mean for someone like myself? Will I be able to get the additional features?
Tim, glad you're enjoying your purchase! The only thing you're missing at Logos 5 Silver is the Bible Sense Lexicon data. Thanks to dynamic pricing, you'll be able to purchase the Minimal Crossgrade and pay only for the content you don't yet own, which should just be the BSL data. I'd expect that to be relatively inexpensive.
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Naveen Balakrishnan said:
Is there a possibility to create a product with just the features (including the data sets) without the additional core sets (why are they core?) for the Logos 5 engine who are looking patiently to upgrade when it becomes available? Looking at this from a pricing standpoint. If I had the resources to upgrade I would, but now I am contemplating even some of the Pre-pubs I have on order.
Naveen, I think you'll find that one of our two offerings will meet your needs for a very reasonable price. We hope to have them ready and live sometime next week (assuming we don't run into any unforeseen complications).
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What about the Personal Book Builder. From what I am seeing the forums it has not been out that long and now there is a new software version. Does L5 have a personal book builder in it? Will books created in PBB L4 work in L5?
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James .... Personal Book Builder picks up in L5 right where you left it in L4. And of course it includes the assists to managing sermons that were introduced recently in L4.
No worries there.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Phil,
My question was based on the basic minimal crossgrade which may lack one or two features. I was wondering if it would be feasible to get all the features of L5 with the requisite datasets without any more additional stuff (core-sets for example)? I want the minimal crossgrade with all the features of L5 without any other necessary or unnecessary sets (the price now looks like it is going to be around 150 instead of the around 100 figure).
In Christ Alone and for His Glory
Naveen
Jeremiah 15:16
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Naveen Balakrishnan said:
My question was based on the basic minimal crossgrade which may lack one or two features. I was wondering if it would be feasible to get all the features of L5 with the requisite datasets without any more additional stuff (core-sets for example)? I want the minimal crossgrade with all the features of L5 without any other necessary or unnecessary sets (the price now looks like it is going to be around 150 instead of the around 100 figure).
I think we're at the point now where Logos has told us all they can definitively tell us about the minimal crossgrades, and we'll just have to wait until next week to see how it shakes out in the details.
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Patience then is the key. After all Paul mandates to us that we are to be patient with all men. No point fretting.
In Christ Alone and for His Glory
Naveen
Ezra 7:10
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Yes, thank you on the clarification. I, too, was about to say good-bye to LOGOS and just assume that it had become something that only rich pastors of huge churches could afford. I'm a missionary, no pay increases to fund the current inflation caused by our dramatically devaluing dollar, and I'm in debt as it is... I just can't afford to pay $300-$500 for ONE book set as it come to be, or over $100/mo for a major upgrade. I've stretched and stretched the finances to get the package I have now (Scholar's), so when I look at the prices of the upgrades, I just don't have the money — and besides, I really don't need all that new content. I already HAVE what I need. So, I DO appreciate hearing about the planned FREE upgrades for those of us in the same boat as me — as well as the minimal upgrades you mentioned. As one of the original beta-testers of the original CD-Word when the idea was hatched out of Dallas Seminary back when dinosaurs walked the earth (circa 1989), I really do have a heart connection to this program as well as a functional one. Thank you for not alienating those of us who are struggling to survive on our allowances/salaries. It really DOES mean a lot to us. Thanks again. A continuing loyal partner of LOGOS... albeit a poor one!... —Phil Leach
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Does L5 have a personal book builder in it? Will books created in PBB L4 work in L5?
Yes, Logos 5 has a Personal Books tool plus Logos 4 created personal books work in Logos 5:
Keep Smiling [:)]
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DMB said:
But I assume for you to complete the feature set you want, you're going to need to cough up some more dough on the high end of his range.
Disagree. If Tim already has L5 Silver, then only one Data Set—Bible Sense Lexicon—remains for him to purchase. Thus, his price should be much lower than the "high end of his range". (The BWS, Septuagint will be available to owners of Bronze when the Swete version is completed.)
EDIT: See that Phil already responded to Tim with this answer.
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Thanks for this revelation Bob... to me it is not a clarification because I saw nothing about it at all before... clarity was not the issue. This info was absent. I am greatly relieved to know this. My finances are extremely limited right now so what was originally offered was out of my reach. I also appreciate what you said:
17 years ago we made a decision to sell content, not code. We did this because we didn't like how people were forced to buy upgrades to maintain access to their library when computers and operating systems changed or were upgraded. We wanted our users to be able to buy an electronic book and know that they wouldn't have to pay again to read it just because Microsoft Windows was updated.
Many years ago I bought the Expositor's Bible Commentary from Zondervan and used it with Windows 95 and 98 to great advantage. When I upgraded to Win XP, I had to buy it again (still with Zondervan) under the name Pradis 5.1. Now I am unable to use it with my newer computer and although I have already bought it twice, Logos tells me that to use it with my Logos Library, I must buy it a THIRD time. This is not right. I'm just sayin'...
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"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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No offense...but this launch was poorly handled. How many customers did you lose by rushing an incomplete launch. I am L4 Platinum user, been a customer since L2...all I want is to upgrade for new functionality not books. I will wait for the crossgrade, but I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time. Your strategy of "paying the bills" does not impact me since I am not a new customer. In fact, since it was terrible launch how many customers needlessly paid hundreds of dollars? Especially since you are fundamentally changing the way Logos will work, i.e. only Gold level receives full functionality, and without reading this post in the forum you may have duped many unsuspecting customers out of needed funds. One more bad launch like this and it could really cost you, and that would be a shame. But I still haven't decided to stay with you, again I wait for the crossgrade, and if I am not impressed, I am moving on to a company that has not lost sight of the most important thing, the customer.
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Scott Pixler said:
I had to buy it again (still with Zondervan) under the name Pradis 5.1. Now I am unable to use it with my newer computer and although I have already bought it twice, Logos tells me that to use it with my Logos Library, I must buy it a THIRD time. This is not right. I'm just sayin'...
1. I can read EBC in Pradis 5.1 and Pradis 6.0 running under Win7 64 bit. I don't know what newer computer you have that won't run it
2. What obligation does Logos have to give you a product just because Zondervan won't support their own product any more?
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Larry Sterling Jr. said:
I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time
I believe Bob has already explained that Server traffic and Logos's customer support and sales teams were incapable of handling all this activity at once. Imagine 70,000 people all leaving a stadium at once. Each fan believes he has a right to go to his car and drive straight to the exit, but the stadium staff and availability of traffic lanes means some people will have to wait longer than they want. In order to avoid road rage in the parking lot, they have chosen a staggered release.
It would have been impractical to buy new servers and hire/train more staff for a 3-4 week release of a new product.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David ... I didn't know that. I always wondered what all the cars did the minute the event was over.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Thomas: Imagine 70,000 people all leaving a stadium at once...
I hope you do not bend your hermenuetics around your own worldly ideas the way you analogized this one. What Logos did was more like making 70,000 people think they had to buy season tickets to be able to leave the stadium then back off to saying they would let those who bought season tickets leave and at some point, they would decide when and how the others could leave -- maybe in a week or two.
"For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Jas 2:2–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
I have it from a top man that Logos does aspire to adhere to Biblical principles while they also desire to righteously pay bills. They have conceded this was not the best job of marketing they could have done, so we need to forgive and move on -- lesson learned for all concerned. It will not help folks to move on though, if you try to paint this as done properly and anybody to who says otherwise is wrong.
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I wonder if many of us are not losing perspective over this issue, like I did? Richard Rohr, in an interesting lecture, pointed out that success has very little to teach us after the age of about 35. We need success up to that point for reasons of self-esteem, building confidence in our abilities, etc., but after age 35 he claims that we have more to learn from failure than from success. If failure and mistakes provide one of the most fertile grounds for learning then we can have nothing but confidence that customer service from Logos will go from strength to strength in the future.
What lasting damage has Logos done to us that is beyond forgiveness? Do we not still possess the best Bible software on the planet with the prospect of a free upgrade to make it even better? What have we lost? We still have the software we were so pleased with a few short weeks ago. We can still continue our ministries and our study unhindered. We've suffered a blow to our pride and a sting to our sense of self-importance as loyal customers. Maybe we needed that to reveal ourselves to ourselves and make us better followers of the crucified One? If so, then the mistakes that Bob acknowledged he made, (and apologized for), in launching L5 in the way he did, while placing us at a temporal disadvantage, but only in so far as the L5 upgrade is concerned, have done us ultimate (spiritual) good.
Is it possible to re-conceive our relationship with Logos on more than a business / customer basis? Could we not, rather, in some way see ourselves in fellowship with each other in the body of Christ? Can we see Logos in service to us providing us incredible tools for ministry and study which enable us to do our preparatory work more efficiently and effectively giving us more time for the other demands in our lives than we would otherwise have? Can we see ourselves in service to Logos, feeding back into Logos our experiences, needs and, yes, dissatisfactions, hurts and concerns to enable them to serve us better? And could it be with a spirit of forbearance and love in which we are prepared to carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ?
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Well, I know the ushers at our church check for gold rings and 'fine clothing'.
"Would that be Brooks Brothers, sir?" "Here ... let me provide you one of our best seats." (near the front where everyone else refuses to sit).
This caught my eye with the Semitic resource discussion on giving pearls to pigs (whether an aramaism or not).
This morning the javelina were blocking the street AGAIN. If only the NT had not banned pearls. "Here boy, here boy ... "
Ok ... back to trying to figure out the cars-in-the-stadium problem.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Phil Gons said:
We hope to have them ready and live sometime next week (assuming we don't run into any unforeseen complications).
Is this saying that the cross grade will be possibly available next week! That is great news if so!
My question is: "If their are various levels of "cross grade" and one wants the "whole ball of wax" would the price be above $100.00 as Bob mentioned in an earlier thread?
The reason I ask is I might be better off upgrading now due to some serious value in the L5 package option. Decisions, decisions
Can we have a price range guess?0 -
Jeff O'Neal said:
if you try to paint this as done properly and anybody to who says otherwise is wrong.
The point I was trying to make is that a little patience is helpful. I was not attempting to imply that "anybody who says otherwise is wrong". In a perfect world (if it ever existed) everybody would get what they want when they want it. But there are times when we each must wait longer than we wish.
I was trying to educate that there may be an additional perspective. Profit was not the ONLY consideration that prompted Logos to roll out the way they did. Bob has admitted that company profits were part of the equation, but electronic distribution and customer service were also considered.
Also, you have NO idea of my biblical hermeneutics and are out of line to imply they are improper! I was NOT attempting to explain a Biblical truth, I was attempting to illustrate the reality of limited access and staffing.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Michael, I can really sympathize with you. You should not have to do "diagnostic logging" or go through any other electronic manipulations to get the program which you spent more than a few dollars on to run.
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Dave M said:
Michael, I can really sympathize with you. You should not have to do "diagnostic logging" or go through any other electronic manipulations to get the program which you spent more than a few dollars on to run.
Would it then be better for him to be without the resources he purchased. If he is having problems that others are not having, how else can Logos find and correct the problem?
Besides, you have responded to a two-week old post. His last posts mentioned contact with Logos Tech Support. That was on November 2, but he never reported the final result of that contact—at least not in this thread. Since he never came back, I would assume that the problem was corrected. However, you may assume anything you wish.
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David,
As for #1, my new computer is a Macbook Pro and it definitely won't run my Pradis 5.1 Software which is made for WIn XP.
As for #2, We are talking about rights to digital products here. I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice! I now have a wonderful computer and wonderful Logos software that includes the EBC, but I am told that as far as Logos is concerned, I don't own it! It would not cost Logos anything to give me access to the digital product of which I have demonstrable ownership. I would compare this to losing the use of my car (which I already own) because the county or state government changed! I quoted Bob's statement about Logos's desire to not force people to re-purchase digital books merely because their operating system changed. That is essentially what is happening here and I don't see what is unreasonable or hard to understand about it!
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Scott Pixler said:
I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice!
You bought the limited rights to use it in a certain format. That is Zondervan's decision, not Logos'. Zondervan is the one who limited your rights when you purchased the product. Zondervan was very annoying about this, and it's one reason Pradis didn't succeed. You didn't buy unlimited rights to use it in any way you see fit. Most digital license agreements are specific about this.
Logos pays licensing fees to Zondervan for every Zondervan product they unlock in Logos. They just can't give Zondervan's products away for free.
Once you have a book in Logos format, then you will not have to pay again to use it in any Logos software. But if you switch software again, don't expect your Logos licenses to follow you to that new software. License agreements are very strict and limited to the companies involved. You won't find an unlimited use license anywhere, when it comes to copyrighted material.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Scott Pixler said:
We are talking about rights to digital products here. I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice! I now have a wonderful computer and wonderful Logos software that includes the EBC, but I am told that as far as Logos is concerned, I don't own it!
I hate to tell you this, but it is still true that you don't own it! When you purchase electronic media (other media as well), you are entering into a license agreement… That agreement gives you certain rights and responsibilities. The content holders want to restrict you as much as possible (they WANT you to purchase it over and over!). As a consumer, you (and I) want as much freedom as possible (some people would buy a book and give it away to all their friends). The agreement (plus sometimes digital rights management) is what keeps one side from walking over the other. Logos is a "middle man" and a "value added reseller." Logos must enforce the licensing agreements they have signed with publishers. Do do otherwise would be legally and morally wrong.
Another thing to consider: Logos is a "value added reseller." Logos doesn't give its users files which come straight from the publisher… they reformat them, add tagging, etc. When you purchase a Logos resource, a portion goes to Logos. Don't Logos employees have a right to eat? [;)]
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Scott Pixler said:
It would not cost Logos anything to give me access to the digital product of which I have demonstrable ownership.
Unfortunately, this statement is untrue. Unless Zondervan has made a special arrangement with Logos (and it seems they have not), Logos has to pay the publisher for every copy of a resource they unlock in a user's account. You may wish to contact Zondervan, since as the publisher they are presumably the ones with the power to waive this.
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ManilaDave said:
Is it possible to re-conceive our relationship with Logos on more than a business / customer basis? Could we not, rather, in some way see ourselves in fellowship with each other in the body of Christ? Can we see Logos in service to us providing us incredible tools for ministry and study which enable us to do our preparatory work more efficiently and effectively giving us more time for the other demands in our lives than we would otherwise have? Can we see ourselves in service to Logos, feeding back into Logos our experiences, needs and, yes, dissatisfactions, hurts and concerns to enable them to serve us better? And could it be with a spirit of forbearance and love in which we are prepared to carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ?
Peace to you, ManilaDave! *smile* I, for one, appreciate your very noble and Christ-Centred thoughts! Thank You!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Since Logos's reputation among publishers is crucial: much revolves around that.
alabama24 said:Logos is a "middle man" and a "value added reseller." Logos must enforce the licensing agreements they have signed with publishers. Do do otherwise would be legally and morally wrong.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Your pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.
This said from a user who bought the very first Logos program decades ago and has spent MANY thousands of dollars to get to the level of use (Platinum Edition) that I have currently.
Today I am in the process of removing all my pre-publication orders.
Good-bye from a long-time, loyal and now dissatisfied missionary user of Logos products.
Len Stitt
Executive Director
Sozo International
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Scott Pixler said:
David,
As for #1, my new computer is a Macbook Pro and it definitely won't run my Pradis 5.1 Software which is made for WIn XP.
As for #2, We are talking about rights to digital products here. I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice! I now have a wonderful computer and wonderful Logos software that includes the EBC, but I am told that as far as Logos is concerned, I don't own it! It would not cost Logos anything to give me access to the digital product of which I have demonstrable ownership. I would compare this to losing the use of my car (which I already own) because the county or state government changed! I quoted Bob's statement about Logos's desire to not force people to re-purchase digital books merely because their operating system changed. That is essentially what is happening here and I don't see what is unreasonable or hard to understand about it!
Scott, I understand your frustration. I have some programs that I purchased for Win 3.1 that will not work with newer Operating Systems (even within the Windows world). Several of my colleagues have found that switching form PC to MAC has involved running Parallels (or something similar) because a MAC won't do what their PC used to do.
See if this analogy may fit your situation. I own a car and just filled the tank with gas when the transmission goes out and the car won't run. I find myself buying a replacement vehicle. Is the dealer of the new vehicle under obligation to fill my gas tank simply because my previous vehicle had a full tank when it broke down?
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Hi Len - and welcome to the forums.
I would suggest you contact Logos directly to air your concerns. While Logos personnel do contribute to these forums they are mostly frequented by users who can't address grievances with Logos pricing and marketing strategy.
If, however, there are specific issues that we can potentially help clarify then please post back.
Graham
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Over here ferry-lines between the countries have two pricing models: they both offer a year-card, and they give discount to loyal customers.
Leonard T. Stitt said:Your pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Just called in and spoke to a Logos sales person asking if I could go ahead and purchase the crossgrade. I was told that he hasn't heard anything about an ETA on the minimal crossgrade and it would not be this week.
Now to dig up where I saw that ETA and see if this is a Logos internal communication issue or someone giving bad information.
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The time-frame is an estimate that Logos worker(s) could give, not official - they want a wiggle room of plus ~ 2 days or over the weekend of this week/minus ~ 1 day.
James Jordan said:spoke to a Logos sales person asking if I could go ahead and purchase the crossgrade. I was told that he hasn't heard anything about an ETA on the minimal crossgrade and it would not be this week.
Now to dig up where I saw that ETA and see if this is a Logos internal communication issue or someone giving bad information.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Larry Sterling Jr. said:
No offense...but this launch was poorly handled. How many customers did you lose by rushing an incomplete launch. I am L4 Platinum user, been a customer since L2...all I want is to upgrade for new functionality not books. I will wait for the crossgrade, but I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time. Your strategy of "paying the bills" does not impact me since I am not a new customer. In fact, since it was terrible launch how many customers needlessly paid hundreds of dollars?
Larry, I agree that our launch wasn't executed as well as it should have been, and I'm very sorry for that. We underestimated how many people were not interested in continuing to build their libraries with more books at about 90% off our normal prices. To be sure, the majority of people have found our upgrade offerings quite compelling, but certainly not everyone. So we're working to make sure all customers are taken care of with options that meet their needs.
Larry Sterling Jr. said:Especially since you are fundamentally changing the way Logos will work, i.e. only Gold level receives full functionality, and without reading this post in the forum you may have duped many unsuspecting customers out of needed funds. One more bad launch like this and it could really cost you, and that would be a shame.
In Logos 4, you got all features and data at Scholar's, but that was when there were four packages below Scholar's and Scholar's was our middle package. Now Gold is our middle package, so we decided to make it the place at which you get all features and data. Our Core Datasets and Minimal Crossgrade will allow people who don't want books to get there relatively inexpensively.
Larry Sterling Jr. said:But I still haven't decided to stay with you, again I wait for the crossgrade, and if I am not impressed, I am moving on to a company that has not lost sight of the most important thing, the customer.
Thanks for giving us another opportunity to take care of you and earn your trust.
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Thanks to Todd, Alabama24, and many others for your patient responses to my complaint. I am a pastor, not a lawyer. I know I should read those ELUA pages when I am installing software, but I gave that up long ago because they were mostly incomprehensible anyway. I am sure you are all correct that legally I do not own Expositor's Bible Commentary as I thought I did. Sadly, when I purchased the digital version I had about half of the printed volumes which I gave away to students thinking that I would never need them again... I am a generous person and do not begrudge Logos employees their wages or desire to take food out of their mouths!
But with my new understanding of how this works, I am going to make some changes. I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure! If I can get them free from google books or gutenburg,org, I will. Those will truly be "mine" in the old fashioned sense of the word. I apologize to Logos and all of her employees for any implication of wrongdoing that I may have made. I know this is not your fault. Even though you all are legally/technically correct, I still think that at the root of it all, the way these resources are sold digitally is not fair to me, the end user. It is really more like I am leasing them for a short while... I can't change the rules of digital publishing and distribution, but I can refuse to participate in the game. I will look for free e-books and buy myself used printed books instead.
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David,
Again, I appreciate your reply... As for your analogy with a car, It is more like you laid it out only I want to drain the gas out of my old car's tank to use in my new car and someone is telling me that I cannot do that because it is no longer my gas! That is how it feels to me!
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Scott Pixler said:
I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure! If I can get them free from google books or gutenburg,org, I will. Those will truly be "mine" in the old fashioned sense of the word. I apologize to Logos and all of her employees for any implication of wrongdoing that I may have made. I know this is not your fault. Even though you all are legally/technically correct, I still think that at the root of it all, the way these resources are sold digitally is not fair to me, the end user. It is really more like I am leasing them for a short while.
It requires a new mindset, I admit, but there are many benefits to the digital model. Printed books can be lost in many ways, and you'll always have to pay to replace them. Just because you own a commentary set in paper doesn't guarantee access for life: books can be lost in fire and floods, damaged by poor handling, and can be stolen or lost. In those cases, you'll have to buy the book again. Having paid for it once doesn't give you a right to a fresh copy.
None of these hazards applies to Logos resources which can be re-downloaded at any time. There's even a recent example in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/59432.aspx. Also, Logos resources can be willed to others. But most of all, Logos resources are so much easier to use than the thousands of pounds of equivalent paper books. Plus they have features that no paper book could ever have. Automated definitions, automatic commentary look-ups, quick access to highlighting and clippings, reference searches, linking between resources, access on multiple devices, etc., etc. You give up a lot to stick with only paper books. For me, it's an easy decision. (Especially after moving to a new house a few years ago)
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Scott Pixler said:
David,
Again, I appreciate your reply... As for your analogy with a car, It is more like you laid it out only I want to drain the gas out of my old car's tank to use in my new car and someone is telling me that I cannot do that because it is no longer my gas! That is how it feels to me!
While this is true, but you cannot put diesel fuel into a high performance NASCAR car.
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Scott Pixler said:
I know I should read those ELUA pages when I am installing software, but I gave that up long ago because they were mostly incomprehensible anyway.
Agreed! [:S]
Scott Pixler said:But with my new understanding of how this works, I am going to make some changes. I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure!
That is a decision you will have to make for yourself… but as for me, I have gone the other way. I understand the limitations of my "purchase," but I think the benefits outweigh the weaknesses. If your house gets flooded or burns down, your paper books are gone… but you can re-download your entire Logos library to your new iPad and Computer. Additionally, the ability to perform a search and serendipitously discover gems from your books in Logos is amazing. You can't do that with paper books. [;)]
Scott Pixler said:I had about half of the printed volumes which I gave away to students thinking that I would never need them again... I am a generous person and do not begrudge Logos employees their wages or desire to take food out of their mouths!
I continue to give away my paper copies as I gain digital copies. Good for you! As for my slightly-snarky comment about feeding Logos employees… I think it is helpful to remember that when we purchase a Logos resource, we are supporting the men and women who work there. If I didn't feel that their product was worth the extra expense, I would purchase elsewhere. I believe, however, that the Logos system is the best computer library application on the market, and I am glad to support them (when I can) through purchases. I hope to upgrade to a new base package at Christmas time. But only IF Santa is good to me. [:)]
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Scott Pixler said:
Thanks to Todd, Alabama24, and many others for your patient responses to my complaint. I am a pastor, not a lawyer. I know I should read those ELUA pages when I am installing software, but I gave that up long ago because they were mostly incomprehensible anyway. I am sure you are all correct that legally I do not own Expositor's Bible Commentary as I thought I did. Sadly, when I purchased the digital version I had about half of the printed volumes which I gave away to students thinking that I would never need them again... I am a generous person and do not begrudge Logos employees their wages or desire to take food out of their mouths!
Sigh. This is the fundamental problem of the current ebook market, not only Logos has this problem. Any ebook platform has it.
One crucial element missing in the ebook market is standardisation, something like mp3/aac in the music industry. Yes there's epub but even for the ebook platforms that are using epub, the DRM is proprietary and say if I buy a book from iBook store I can't read it in Kindle. I heard there's software to remove the DRM from the epub so that it can be universally read, but that's violating the EULA, and I don't know if it's illegal.
And when it comes to christian libraries, one more problem arouse. Christian ebooks are unlike any other ebook when it is presenting in a software like Logos or any of its competitors. The ebooks all have one common reference, the Bible (which is versified), this make ebook software like Logos or any of its competitors so unique. E.g. I am a physicist and I just can't find similar software working for Physics ebooks, not to mention most good physics text don't have a ebook format yet.
And then there's many other features building into the Logos ebooks, e.g. the original language, the cross references, the ToC, footnotes, etc.
This make it extra difficult to standardise the format.
I don't know much in detail how hard it would be to standardise the ebooks from Logos and its competitors. From my point of view, it is possible but very difficult. And it might in fact be much more difficult than I can imagine making it virtually impossible. (standardisation also means restriction. of course a certain standard can evolve, but much more slowly, and that will slow down the development of the software).
And I believe that practically it won't happen, just because those platforms are already well establish, very difficult for them to change.
Scott Pixler said:But with my new understanding of how this works, I am going to make some changes. I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure! If I can get them free from google books or gutenburg,org, I will. Those will truly be "mine" in the old fashioned sense of the word. I apologize to Logos and all of her employees for any implication of wrongdoing that I may have made. I know this is not your fault. Even though you all are legally/technically correct, I still think that at the root of it all, the way these resources are sold digitally is not fair to me, the end user. It is really more like I am leasing them for a short while... I can't change the rules of digital publishing and distribution, but I can refuse to participate in the game. I will look for free e-books and buy myself used printed books instead.
But I think own it or not is not that important. I believe what's more important is how convenient it is to use it, to retrieve it. And a side benefits is sometimes it is cheaper to get them digitally.
I just don't want to explain too much in detail how much more convenient to use it in a software like Logos than a real book or pdf. I only want to convince that it is not less inconvenient, at least comparing to the pdf you mention (I assume from Google/gutenburg.org means pdf? or ePub?).
There's only two possibilities that you have to buy those ebooks again: either that platform dies, or you switch to other platform (some of Logos' competitors). For the latter case, to use the digital books you already paid in Logos, you simply open it in Logos! You still "owned" it. Yes it is inconvenient but no less than opening a real book or using pdf/ePub. You just open that in another "place".
And for the first case, that Logos dies. It's always possible for a company to die, although very unlikely for something like Logos. Just don't screw up often like this time. they usually do a great job (both on the product itself and marketing).
What happened then if it died? You can still read those ebooks, in two ways at least:
1) keep an old computer with an old OS that the Logos you owned supports. Let's hypothetically say it is a Windows 8 with Logos 5. Just keep that computer, never sold it. And if that computer dies, install Windows 8 on some new hardwares. It should still works. Again, it is inconvenient to keep one computer system to run Logos only, but not as inconvenient as keeping some real books, may be just a bit more inconvenient comparing to pdf/ePub.
2) Turn all the Logos ebooks into pdf. Caution: I don't know about the legal part / EULA here, but other than that it should works. Logos has a print function and you can "print to pdf" for the whole book. Yes, it is very slow to do this. But this works. I tried to do it on some interlinear Bible in the past so that I can read them on the iPad (interlinear was not working on the iPad before). As it now becomes a pdf, it works as convenient as any pdf you've got.
So rationally I don't think there's really any point stop buy digital in Logos. May be I miss something.
But may be emotionally you don't like "the rules of digital publishing and distribution". I'd say just get over it. The world is not perfect and often fragmented. If some day there's someone do something like Steve Jobs did on the Music industry about "the rule of digital publishing and distribution, of Music" by iTunes, then might be this will change. (caveat: the music industry was in the crisis facing privacy. So the timing and opportunity is also very important. I don't see a crisis appears in the christian ebooks market very soon. No?)
To me, emotionally it feels so great to buy those books legally at about one tenth of the original price, through base packages and (at a lesser discount) other bundled libraries. I just won't get them financially in the near future otherwise.
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I have a fireproof modern safe. Plus an old safe. They can contain a fraction of my print books&Bibles.
I can't live without print books. But with a few exceptions if Logos issues my books I gather my books in the software.Loosing my laptop would be a disaster - not because of the files and software (which are backed up in the Logos cloud, on an external HDD and a USB-memory) but because of the hardware.
I don't have internet at home and the school closes early. If some of my notes are not immediately backed up that's not a problem, I could afford loosing some notes.
There is a balance between buying only the books that are really useful and good, the time it takes to choose them and placing orders on Logos Abebooks and Amazon, writing reviews, tagging, reading, and possibly upgrading (getting both what You need and what You don't want to support).
As with most things, You ultimately have to think of efficiency: do You really want to dig that deep in research and Your wallet, how do You want to divide Your time ...
Disclosure!
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48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Scott Pixler said:
But with my new understanding of how this works, I am going to make some changes.
Now wanting to be sarcastic or to demean you position, but have you considered how drastic this action becomes if carried to its logical conclusion? will you also forgo word processors, database software, all graphic applications, note taking software, etc.? When you purchase any of them, you are only getting a license to use them. Ownership remains with the vendor. In other words, to be consistent with the position stated in your post, you must for all practical purposes abandon computer software completely.
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Scott Pixler said:
David,
Again, I appreciate your reply... As for your analogy with a car, It is more like you laid it out only I want to drain the gas out of my old car's tank to use in my new car and someone is telling me that I cannot do that because it is no longer my gas! That is how it feels to me!
Scott, I think the best analogy here is with physical books. If I buy a hardcover copy of a book, a portion of that money goes toward the intellectual property side of things (paying the author, editors, publicists, illustrators, and all that jazz) and a portion goes toward distribution (printing, shipping, inventory, etc.). Even still, my money has only bought me one physical copy of the book. If it gets stolen, burned up, or lost, you are not entitled to buy another copy at a discounted rate that only covers distribution costs. You have to pay for the intellectual property all over again.
With digital books, you're actually in better shape, generally speaking. My Logos resources aren't limited to one physical copy, and if my computer dies or is stolen I can easily put all of my Logos resources on another one. The limitation here is that I'm bound to the Logos software, I don't automatically own the same books in Accordance or Bibleworks or as paper copies.
This was a big reason for me to choose the Logos ecosystem of competitors. It's a strong company that has been in business for a long time, it has a large customer base, and it's cross-platform. I'm confident that my investment is safe, even if I switch operating systems. I feel the same way about buying Kindle books from Amazon. Zondervan's software, on the other hand, had no such advantage.
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To Todd, Tom, Alabama24, Unix, Jack and Kolen:
Thanks to all of you for your replies. There is a lot of wisdom shared there. I am surprised that so many of you even care about my post. I don't want to belabor this any longer. I have experienced the pains, the pleasures, and the benefits of both e-books and printed books. I have thousands of both. I did not know that I can will my Logos books to my descendants. Thank you for that info. That is something that is important to me about my books: that my kids can have them one day and treasure them as I have. I have some very old print books that have been handed down to me... I love 'em.
For those of you who think e-books are better because they don't burn, I have a product for you that you may already own. It is called homeowners insurance. My mortgage holder requires me to have it and for a small charge it covers my library also. That one is a wash.
To Jack, your point about application software is not convincing. I think it is comparing apples to oranges. There are two viable options for using books. For using computer applications there is only one option, and it is much more clear to me and always has been that I don't own it, but I am only a "user". If I choose to not buy any more e-books, I will continue to use computer applications with a clear conscience! Deciding to forsake the one in no way compels me to forsake the other.
Thanks again to all of you. I wish you all the best and pray God's blessing on you!
Scott
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Well, I'm enjoying the best of both worlds. A LARGE fully licensed, internet-free Bible software (Libronix) and the new world of used books.
Both consume my attention.
I will say the down-side to the used book world is trying to find 'one last volume' in a commentary. No amount of searching among Amazon, Abe Books, etc have located that little puppy.
Better for a large electronic book publisher to 'do it once' for everyone (not talking about the pdf world).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hi Bob - Still disappointed in the fact that those who visit the upgrade page have no idea of what you outlined in your post.
You can type "Logos 5 upgrade" or Logos 5 crossgrade" on the main search engine at Logos and find nothing about what you wrote. No link to your post.
The distinct impression when you look at the upgrade page is that these are the only options there are and they are expensive (I currently own the Platinum Edition).
Why not put something on the upgrade page about Logos' plan make the free software engine and minimal crossgrade option? That way your customers can make a fully informed choice.
The lack of clarity (and it is 10 days since you posted your information) is still going on, and I do find it offensive and even deceptive.
Len
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Offensive? Really? REALLY? I.JUST.CAN'T.
In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**0
