Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

We're very sorry that the Logos 5 upgrade message hasn't been clear enough.

Logos 5 will be available at many price points, and the free engine will be available soon. But it works best with new content and resources, which are available now as great deals!

We are working to improve the web site and messaging.

- Our packages have been dramatically reconfigured. (For lots of reasons.) Our new dynamic pricing engine calculates a custom price for you to 'upgrade' to any package. If you had 'Gold' in Logos 4, you don't have to move to 'Gold' in Logos 5 -- it's just a different collection of books. You could move to Bronze or Starter or Diamond -- whatever you choose, you only pay for new content. That's the same as always, and hasn't changed.

- Because the collections changed so much, though (some are gone, others are new, ones with the same name are very different), some users are seeing "Gold to Gold" or "Platinum to Platinum" upgrade prices that seem way too high. This reflects all the new content -- data sets, books, etc. -- in the new collections. But not everyone wants/needs/can-afford a lot of new books right now.

- There will be a Minimum Crossgrade for Logos 5. It is not ready yet, and pricing has not been established, but we expect it'll be under $100. (It will use dynamic pricing as well, but will probably be the same price for most users since almost all the content will be completely new to Logos 5.)

- The Minimal Crossgrade is being configured, but we expect it will contain all/most of the unique new data sets (Timeline, Bible Facts, Clause Database, Bible Sense Lexicon, Phrases, Preaching Themes, Thematic Outlines, etc.). Some Logos 5 features only "light-up" or add value when specific books are present, and we're figuring out which ones should be included in this crossgrade.

(The Minimal Crossgrade for Logos 5 is not the same as "Gold to Gold" or a 'same level' crossgrade -- it will not add the books in "Gold 5" to an existing "Gold 4" -- just the new data sets.)

NEW, Friday, 11/9: We've been looking at the interdependence of some of the data sets, and the fact that even for original purchasers, some of the new data sets / resources are only in Gold and above. So we're planning to split the crossgrade into two levels; the smaller one will likely be under $100, and appropriate for someone with CHL, BSL, Leader's, or Scholar's, and the larger one with have the language-related resources and data sets, too, and be somewhere over $100, depending on what you already own. It will be for people who had Scholar's, Silver, Gold, etc.

- The Logos 5 software engine will be available for free download in the future. It is not available yet, but will be. Upgrading just the engine will let you use some new functionality, take advantage of the new user interface, etc. You'll get the search helps, bibliography report, and more. But features that require specific new data sets -- like the new Timeline, Bible Facts, and the Bible Sense Lexicon -- aren't included.

- Why are these not available now? 17 years ago we made a decision to sell content, not code. We did this because we didn't like how people were forced to buy upgrades to maintain access to their library when computers and operating systems changed or were upgraded. We wanted our users to be able to buy an electronic book and know that they wouldn't have to pay again to read it just because Microsoft Windows was updated.

Over the years this turned into "you only buy books, the software is free!" And that has been the case for 17 years, and still is. And for all those years we have continued to offer free updates, free phone support, and excellent customer service. And we still will.

But we pay the bills by selling new content. So when we have a major upgrade we reconfigure our bundles, create high-value collections, and hope that we can sell enough content to cover the ongoing, cost of free upgrades and free support for everyone who ever bought an ebook in our format.

You do not have to buy a level-to-level crossgrade. You do not need to buy more books. We will have a very affordable Minimal Crossgrade. We will have a free engine download. But since we have limited resources -- only so much bandwidth, servers, and (the real limit) phone-lines and people available to take calls and answer email -- we are focusing on selling those new content bundles first.

Once the phone queue slows down, and once we aren't helping people who do want to upgrade to a larger collection at a great price, we will put the Minimal Crossgrade up for sale. Then, some time after we've taken care of people who want to purchase that affordable crossgrade, we will put the free engine online, and offer the same level of free, friendly, phone or email support we've been providing for two decades -- even to people who bought one package a decade ago and have never purchased anything since.

- Yes, but when? We're not sure, but it won't be a terribly long wait -- though it may feel that way if you've watched the Logos 5 videos! I know it's hard to wait when it looks (and is!) so cool....

You'll soon be able to move to the Logos 5 engine at no cost at all. You'll even have an option for adding the coolest new data sets at a very reasonable cost.

I'm so sorry we didn't make all of this clearer right from the start, and I hope you won't be offended by our "paying the bills" focus on selling the revenue-generating upgrade bundles for just a short while before we offer the low-cost and free alternatives.

-- Bob Pritchett, President/CEO

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Comments

Robert C. Beckman Jr.

Thank you for the prompt, clear and comprehensive answer. We do appreciate the effort. Many of us use this software so much that our attachment is more visceral than typically experienced with software. Speaking at least for myself, any perceived negativity was because I care.

Keep up the good work

Carey G. Pearson

[Y] good job, thanks Bob.

Jonathan Pitts

Thanks, Bob. I hope this what the forums needed and that things settle down.

Please can you clarify one thing for me? Will all of the new features and databases be available separately?

I have Logos 4 Platinum. I would like all of the new features and databases but can't afford a major upgrade at present. Since there are a few resources that interest me, I was considering Logos 5 Silver. That would leave me without the Bible Sense Lexicon and without senses in Bible Word Study. A popup on the upgrade comparison page says that the Bible Sense Lexicon is sold separately for £12.45 GBP, but I couldn't find it for sale online. I phoned the sales team and was told that that price was only shown to make the discount calculator work and that the lexicon is not for sale separately. Is this true?

Mark

There will be a Minimum Crossgrade for Logos 5. It is not ready yet, and pricing has not been established, but we expect it'll be under $100

This is helpful. Thanks for the clear information.

Jerry Bush

Bob and Logos -

Not that you need more advice, but I would lock this Bob's post above at the top of the forums for awhile. It might help.

Jerry

Bill Moore

Thanks, Bob, for the explanation. I was away from the forums for a day or so and was overwhelmed by the number of threads about the released-in-my-absence Logos 5. [:)] I don't have time right now to see what all is going on with the upgrade options (Sunday is coming!), but I'll check it out the first of the week.

David Wilson

Thanks Bob: Will wait patiently as there are a couple of "issues" right now delaying my decisions on new resources and which package to get:

no detailed listings available right now (Friday evening) of the content of the various Verbum packages - the "Compare" link which suggests you can compare detailed content of the various Verbum packages currently takes you to the general upgrade page comparing only Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum resources etc - Verbum Capstone and Verbum Master look potentially interesting, but I got a lot of my resources in the Library Builder package and it is not obvious these were considered "automatically" by the pricing algorithm.
seems to be an issue with many of my "new to me" resources being collections I already own (perhaps because some of my collections were assembled by means other than a direct purchase from Logos of the currently listed collection containing those titles)
The Upgrade page sorted by resources "new to you" does not "print" all the columns for all the pages, missing which are in Platinum, Diamond and Portfolio when you try to print the pages (using IE9) - doing a printout helps me check against existing resources as listed in Logos 4, given there is no access right now to "my account"

I don't expect everything to be sorted out and 100% functional the first day or two, will wait patiently for things to get ironed out ....[:)]

EDIT: Found the link to the details of the Verbum packages : http://www.logos.com/catholic#compare

Dave Hooton

- There will be a Minimum Crossgrade for Logos 5. It is not ready yet, and pricing has not been established, but we expect it'll be under $100. (It will use dynamic pricing as well,

Treating it similar to an upgrade package makes a lot of sense and I agree that it should wait until the momentum for package upgrades slows down. It creates the possibility that one can upgrade to L5 Silver AND get the Crossgrade purely for the Bible Sense Lexicon!

Paul Na

[Y]

Ken Hicks

Thanks Bob. I greatly appreciate the clarity and your responsiveness.

Mark E. Ryman

Thank you.

KPK

I'm so sorry we didn't make all of this clearer right from the start, and I hope you won't be offended by our "paying the bills" focus on selling the revenue-generating upgrade bundles for just a short while before we offer the low-cost and free alternatives.

Thank you! When I called yesterday they were able to take care of me with no issues. Glad I can support Logos.

mab

Thanks Bob! I need to look more closely at the content being offered.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

Please can you clarify one thing for me? Will all of the new features and databases be available separately?

...A popup on the upgrade comparison page says that the Bible Sense Lexicon is sold separately for £12.45 GBP, but I couldn't find it for sale online. I phoned the sales team and was told that that price was only shown to make the discount calculator work and that the lexicon is not for sale separately. Is this true?

Yes, it is (and it's an error on the website that will be corrected): http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58026/414094.aspx#414094

The current plan is that new data sets will only be available in base packages.

It is possible (like any decision) that this could change in the future. However, consider the data sets from Logos 4 (e.g., Biblical People, Places, Things; Syntax Search; Reverse Interlinears); these have never been available for individual purchase, but only ever as part of base packages (or the minimal crossgrade).

As Bob said, "The Minimal Crossgrade is being configured, but we expect it will contain all/most of the unique new data sets (Timeline, Bible Facts, Clause Database, Bible Sense Lexicon, Phrases, Preaching Themes, Thematic Outlines, etc.)". You may wish to wait and see what it does contain (when it is announced) before making your final decision.

James Macleod

I was never worried thanks team logos for all your efforts. God bless

abondservant

Here is a question I haven't been able to find an answer to by searching around.

If for instance (as I have) one owns the L4 Scholars Library, when I purchased it I had no idea about databases, and those types of resources. Does the scholars library include all the databases and so forth for L4, and if not, would those databases be included in an L5 minimal crossgrade, or would one ALSO need the L4 minimal cross grade.

What about someone who just has the bare minimal L4 library, but wants the benefits of all the L4 features and L5 features...

thanks!

abondservant

Or Datasets, or whatever they are called...

Mark Smith

If for instance (as I have) one owns the L4 Scholars Library, when I purchased it I had no idea about databases, and those types of resources. Does the scholars library include all the databases and so forth for L4, and if not, would those databases be included in an L5 minimal crossgrade, or would one ALSO need the L4 minimal cross grade.

You had all the extra databases and capabilities of L4 with Scholars, as far as I can recall. You didn't need to have also purchased the L4 minimum crossgrade. It would have duplicated what you had already in L4 Scholar's. You would not need it to get the L5 minimum crossgrade.

Jonathan Pitts

Thank you, Bradley.

You may wish to wait and see what it does contain (when it is announced) before making your final decision.

That's the conclusion that I am coming to.

Nathanael King

Thanks for this explanation, and your gracious responses despite all the negativity. I appreciate that you take time to read the forums and address people's concerns.

Couple of quick thoughts/suggestions (totally acknowledging that you obviously know your business better than I do):

A. I think one reason that people are being negative is because this strategy of releasing first to people who are willing to upgrade their libraries, while perhaps profit-efficient in the short-run, leaves the majority of your loyal customer base feeling like we're out in the cold unless we're willing to fork over some major cash. While it's maybe profitable in the short-run, it's dampened my excitement about Logos 5 (and I'd suspect the same applies to others as well). So instead of your customer base enthusiastically telling their friends about it, they're left being frustrated. I suspect this will prove to be an unprofitable marketing strategy in the long run.

B. The line between features and resources is becoming increasingly blurry, and this is something that needs clarity brought to it. Especially considering that you probably can't expect your average user to understand the difference between a feature requiring a new data-set, a feature not requiring a new data-set, and a resource.

C. Maybe it's just psychological since people never lose their resources, but the idea that someone could go from Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Starter is unappealing and understandably frustrating for folks. For someone who's invested a ton in Logos 4 Platinum to go to Logos 5 Starter feels like you're starting all over again. And on top of that, you have to trust the mysterious "upgrade customization engine" to give you a decent price when you decide to upgrade to Platinum again. If you needed to revamp your bundles for marketing purposes, that's fine, but it would have been nice if you'd have done it in a way that allows people to maintain their current status. The reality is that marketing is psychological and status matters to people.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth, and thanks again for your gracious response. Looking forward to the minimal crossgrade. Blessings!

Michael Kahler

Bob it would still be nice if Logos 5 would run after installing it. I run Windows 7, a very widely used operating system, but am unable to use the program after downloading it and installing it. This also overwrote my copy of Logos 4, so until this issue is fixed, I will not be able to use any of the books I've spent well over $10,000 for over the years. Of course, I'll still be charged the same amount for the next several months for Logos 5 since I chose to make payments this time.

Mark Smith

Bob it would still be nice if Logos 5 would run after installing it.

Michael, how about turning on diagnostic logging and posting your log files after you try to restart Logos 5? The way to turn on logging and post logs is found in the link below:

Diagnostic Logging

Also, please post the logs in a new thread. Call it Logos 5 won't start or something like that.

Thanks. maybe we can help. There are also Logos developers standing by to help out with issues like yours.

(Many of us successfully use L5 in Windows 7.)

JT (alabama24)

Bob it would still be nice if Logos 5 would run after installing it.

Michael – First, welcome to the forums! [:)] Sorry you are having troubles [:S]

Please start a new thread in the L5 forum and post your logs. Explain your issue as clearly as possible. Have you tried starting to a blank layout?

http://wiki.logos.com/Diagnostic_Logging

Mark Nichols

Phew. Thanks.

JT (alabama24)

Phew. Thanks.

[:)]

Andrew Buell

Thanks Bon, that helps a lot!

Michael Kahler

Thanks Mark. I did contact Logos and was routed to the technical help folks. Just wanted to post the issue so that others would be aware of it. Hopefully I will hear something soon from Logos and can get back to the business of sermon preparation and Bible study preparation.

Michael Kahler

Hello Alabama, I am waiting for a response at this time from the technical gurus at Logos. Hope to be up and running sometime this weekend. Thanks for the input, though!

Tom Geswein

The current plan is that new data sets will only be available in base packages.

According to Bob's post earlier:

You'll soon be able to move to the Logos 5 engine at no cost at all. You'll even have an option for adding the coolest new data sets at a very reasonable cost.

I am basing my decision of upgrading on how and what we can buy as far as data sets go. I can get 8 of the 9 data sets for a $204 upgrade, but the next step up for me to get all 9 would be $442. While I want the Bible Sense Lexicon, I doubt if it is worth the $240 difference to me. It would be nice to know if the data sets are going to be available individually or as a package. I understand that a final decision may not have been made yet on how to offer these, but it would be nice to have an idea, if someone could shed some light on this...

Rick King

I understand the costs involved in upgrading. I can see the value of all the cool new resources being added and that if I were to buy them separate I would spent many times what the upgrade prices is. I can appreciate the company's views and wanting to get back their investment in time and resources building this product. I am on the fence about the upgrade. I have only one that makes any sense currently. As a Platinum 4 user, Gold or Platinum are the only viable choices. You don't have a fully functional product with less than Gold. It is missing what appears to be one data set but a sales rep informed me that it is actually missing three. So, since I get a 15 percent discount to go with Platinum and no discount on Gold, it gives me a difference in cost between the two of only 120 dollars. So, going from Platinum 4 to Platinum 5 is the only real choice. I am patient enough to wait for the 100 dollar (hypothetical number) upgrade to give me all the data sets and the new engine. However, my fear is that once I do this and find out that none of my old resources will be able to take advantage of all the new flashy whiz bang features and then say... oh, I changed my mind. I want that Platinum upgrade still. Only now, it will cost me 1000 with taxes instead of 750 to get there from here since that initial roll out discount has now expired. Honestly if that happened, I would find a way to sell out and be out the door if that happened but I would hate to stick myself into a position like that needlessly. I am not a huge fan of major changes. Sometimes it is necessary but it sure does cause you to have lumps on your head from bouncing it off the desk and bald spots from pulling hair out. :-)

David Thomas

Bob, your employees are still disseminating contrary information here

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Today 11:00 PM

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Today 11:00 PM

Jose:

We do not plan to offer the Bible Sense Lexicon by itself: you'll need to purchase a base package/upgrade to Gold or above.

You can read more about it here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58208.aspx

Quick Reply

Robert I

So, as one who just bought this 5 months ago and am still making payments.... bummer. Any chance that I get a break or should I just stop making payments and start over with another package?

Todd Phillips

So, as one who just bought this 5 months ago and am still making payments.... bummer. Any chance that I get a break or should I just stop making payments and start over with another package?

The package you bought originally is a different package than any available now and may even be a better package for you depending on your needs (several nice resources were in the previous packages that are no longer in the new packages). Of course, if you find the current packages more to your liking, you should call sales to see what they can do for you. If it's just features and/or datasets you want, then wait for the free engine download or the minimal crossgrade.

I don't think you should stop making payments. That wouldn't be nice. [A]

Erwin

I would like to echo Tom Geswein's post

Dale Garman

I have no problem with your desire to pay the bills. I have a big investment in content, and so want you to stay in business. But I think this approach will not maximize your revenue. I can't actually figure out what if anything to buy, so my wallet stays shut. A fundamental proposition is that if you want to sell something, the buyer has to understand something about what they are buying.

I use many different kinds of software from vendors like Apple, Microsoft, Adobe and on and on. I have never seen such a confusing upgrade. I cannot answer a simple question. If I want to upgrade what am I getting that is different? That seems a big mystery. Maybe it will all become clear at some point. So I will wait on the sidelines and see.

john joyce

Please does anyone know what/when is happening with the Catholic Packages?

Real shame nothing was mentioned or explained on the excellent blog.

Thanks

John

Leo Koo

Thanks Bob!

john joyce

Please does anyone know what/when is happening with the Catholic Packages?

Real shame nothing was mentioned or explained on the excellent blog.

Thanks

John

Now site back up found a whole range of packages called Verbum. Fellow Catholics take a look!

I am very happy [:D]

John

Michael Sullivan

Verbum - Latin for Logos - Greek for Verbum - Latin for Logos - Greek for . . .

Can we throw a totally Lutheran version in the mix and call it: "WORT"

[:)]

Of course, being Lutheran, the starter version would have be called "King" and the Portfolio version "Beggar" - fitting with Lutheran theology.

"We are beggars: this is true." Luther

Aaron Thompson

Wow. Thank you for this open and honest response. Another reason why I love Logos.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

It would be nice to know if the data sets are going to be available individually or as a package. I understand that a final decision may not have been made yet on how to offer these, but it would be nice to have an idea, if someone could shed some light on this...

The data sets are not going to be for sale individually: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58026/414094.aspx#414094 (Please also re-read the caveats in my original post.)

The current plan is that new data sets will only be available in base packages and possibly/probably the Minimal Crossgrade; please re-read Bob's original post to see the details on that.

Josh Hunt

Very helpful info. Thanks, Bob.

Nicholas Roland

Thank you for the clarification. My heart skipped a beat when I saw the price to stay within my package. This makes sense and is a great plan.

John McKenna

My interest in L5 is the fix of the program bugs. I have personally built over the years an extensive library and really don't want to have to replicate and re-purchase any of it again. The packages don't do it for me at all.

Additionally I run Logos on a MacBook Air, Desktop, iPhone and iPad. I love the way Logos ties all my notes together so that when I use any of the devices a note written on one will show up at the other.

What I hope L5 will fix is the regular crashing L4 causes on my MacBook Air. The crashes happen when the L4 indexer works in the background and the code people don't seem to be able to fix this.

After all the above my question is this, will L5 use all my current content and are the Mac indexer issues fixed?

Thanks!

John Duffy

Logos 5 will be available at many price points, and the free engine will be available soon. But it works best with new content and resources, which are available now as great deals!

Bob, thanks for your patience and grace in clarifying the introduction of Logos 5.

For me, the only issue is whether or not I can afford at the minute to take advantage of one of the great upgrade offers, where there is not only a new engine and datasets, but so many great resources bundled at such a relatively low cost (far better then any other 'specials' that occur regularly, it seems to me). Or, whether I should wait for a minimal crossgrade at lower cost. Head and heart aren't in sync here.

But thank you for producing such great software, and trying to keep improving it over time. It has been a real blessing in ministry to use it.

Now, if you could only invent a time machine, to enable me to have more time to read and use all these great resources with the limited time available... [:D]

Kolen Cheung

Thanks so much.

one question: you mentioned that you changed the resources included from the same package dramatically because of the need of the new features from the Logos 5. Do you mean in the future you will have a more conservative approach for the change of resources included so the full upgrade (eg platinum 4 to platinum 5) will be cheaper?

Robert Mullen

This is good to hear. I can be counted as one of the ones who was initially a bit frosted with the price and upgrade options. I like what I have seen of the new features but don't need any new books at this time and am not very interested in the package changes to my Platinum Edition. I definitely don't mind paying a reasonable amount for the new data sets and features (under $100 qualifies for me) and also don't mind waiting for a time while the premium paying customers help L recoup some of their obviously substantial development costs.

Here comes the less positive aspect. Please take this in the spirit intended. It is critical but meant as edifying not disparaging. We will see if I get my message across as intended [:)]

I feel a bit like yesterday's news in this process. I have spent $5K plus over the years on L resources and now I am going to wait because I am not a current premium payer. Again, I am not in instant gratification mode so I can wait a bit but given my past support of L it does chafe me if only slightly.

A little more transparency would have helped this process. Bottom line is that current offering are being focused on those willing to add substantially to current revenue and profits. That is understandable as this is clearly a business and profits/cost recovery is being elevated to a very high priority. Many are not seeing the current package options as upgrades given the new resources v. dollars. Be frank and state that the early marketing emphasis will exclude those not willing to pay a premium for early adoption or those who are looking for a minimal cost way to stay current. It is what it is. It is also different from past approaches by L so I certainly hope the heartburn is not surprising.

Christopher Warrington

Thank you so much for this detailed explanation.

The fact that you responded so quickly to the questions being asked by your customers, shows a great focus on customer service. Thank you for your great products and your work to help the ministry of God increase.

JT (alabama24)

After all the above my question is this, will L5 use all my current content and are the Mac indexer issues fixed?

Hi John! Welcome to the forums.

Yes, L5 will use all of your current content. If you choose to upgrade to a new base package, you will only pay for the resources that are new to you. You will not have to repurchase anything.

As for the indexer issue, I am unaware of your issue. It would be helpful in the future for you to create a new thread and post logs. We would be more than glad to help you with that. If you need help with that issue, please create a new thread in the MAC forum.

Steve Maling

Dear Bob,

Many thanks for your comprehensive explanation regarding the "soon"-to-be-released minimal crossgrade. That really sets my mind at ease.

While ruminating on the emotional intensity of many posts, not to mention my own anxiety level, I was struck by one contributor who remarked on our "visceral" response to changes in Logos because "we care". Indeed we do! And you and your colleagues have inspired our caring. So may you and your colleagues feel the love of your customers in spite of the, to me, startling negativity of many posts. AND, may you all rack up wonderful sales figures so your faith-based business can pay all of you to keep on producing great stuff soli Deo gloria.

Steve

Kolen Cheung

Hi, I also suggest Logos to post this on the Logos blog to let everyone know it. That should be the information everyone should have when they first hear about Logos 5, st least for the current users.

and by the way the recent Logos blog post sounds the author really didn't see all the complaints here...

And thanks again for settling the issue so quickly. I personally encounter another issue that the calculator show 4xx for gold and 5xx for platinum yesterday but than the price go up for ~100 today. I've already sent an email to a sales rep but since I didn't contact him for a long time I don't know if he's still in Logos to answer my email.

David Housholder

It is possible (like any decision) that this could change in the future. However, consider the data sets from Logos 4 (e.g., Biblical People, Places, Things; Syntax Search; Reverse Interlinears); these have never been available for individual purchase, but only ever as part of base packages (or the minimal crossgrade).

As Bob said, "The Minimal Crossgrade is being configured, but we expect it will contain all/most of the unique new data sets (Timeline, Bible Facts, Clause Database, Bible Sense Lexicon, Phrases, Preaching Themes, Thematic Outlines, etc.)". You may wish to wait and see what it does contain (when it is announced) before making your final decision.

One thing not clear to me yet, Bradley, on the datasets: I have Scholar's, the upgrade site seems to be pointing me to Silver. If I purchase Silver at $400+ I will get most of the new databases, but apparently not the church history timeline (since the Gold upgrade specifically mentions it adds church history timeline). Starter and Bronze have fewer of the new databases included. In the description of the crossgrade option it sounds as though all the new databases are included at a cost likely to be under $100.

Would you clarify that?

Bob Pritchett

My interest in L5 is the fix of the program bugs.

For what it's worth, while Logos 5 is better in many ways, we are also still paying attention to Logos 4. We updated Logos 4 many times while preparing Logos 5 (we just released an update on Monday!), and will probably have a few more service releases with bug fixes and even minor improvements. We want you to move to Logos 5 because of the great new content and tools; you shouldn't have to pay to get bug fixes.

Bob Pritchett

one question: ... Do you mean in the future you will have a more conservative approach for the change of resources

There were several factors, including changing license terms / contracts with publishers, etc. I think there will be fewer changes in the resource configuration in the next round (a couple years from now?...) but there's no way to predict the future that far out, especially with the publishing industry changing so quickly right now.

The best clarification so far. My current database is large and scholarly-oriented. However, I bought Original Languages 2 years ago and the current offer of upgrading to Bronze for almost the same price seems unreasonable Waiting patiently for Minimal Crossgrade. Thanks.

Bob Pritchett

Here comes the less positive aspect. ...

I feel a bit like yesterday's news in this process.

I'm very sorry about that. In the chaos of trying to hit a long-planned release date we didn't get to review the entire messaging / web experience as thoroughly as we should have. Many people on our team would have liked to have held things till we could have given a more thorough overview, but I made the call to go ahead even with the rough edges.

Now we're playing catch-up on smoothing the edges, clarifying the message, etc. (We found, for example, that a key page of feature descriptions was online, but not actually linked to, until a day into the process! http://www.logos.com/features )

I'm sorry about the chaos, and appreciate everyone's patience. I trust you'll find Logos 5 worth the wait, though, and that not too long from now it'll be available in a way that is fair and meets everyone's needs.

Jason Saling

In consideration of the Bible Sense Lexicon feature, having Logos 4 Platinum currently, would it be better for me to wait for the Crossgrade? (Would that feature be in it?) Or would it simply be better to purchase the Silver, assuming it won't be in crossgrade or silver? Just don't want to get the Silver, if the Crossgrade would include the feature while Silver does not.

Ronald Quick

I know that a date for the Crossgrade release has not been determined yet, I just hope that the Logos 5 upgrade sale prices are still here when the Crossgrade option becomes available so I can compare and see which would be best for me.

(This may have already been addressed - but there have been so many forum posts I can't keep up with them.)

Ron

Kolen Cheung

one question: ... Do you mean in the future you will have a more conservative approach for the change of resources

There were several factors, including changing license terms / contracts with publishers, etc. I think there will be fewer changes in the resource configuration in the next round (a couple years from now?...) but there's no way to predict the future that far out, especially with the publishing industry changing so quickly right now.

Thanks. That makes me easier to convince my wife to buy Logos 5 upgrade. Well, I can tell her it is one of a kind upgrade that changed so drastically because of the new features and I promise her I won't be spending that much in the future...

Though it would still take some time for us to save the money. I wish I was notified before so I can anticipate that and save it before hand.

Richard Brash

Thank you - this is clear and helpful.

Mike Tourangeau

I trust you'll find Logos 5 worth the wait, though, and that not too long from now it'll be available in a way that is fair and meets everyone's needs.

I trust Bob and Logos.... they have always done right. I am looking forward to the minimum crossgrade. I am waiting till I see all my options. I will upgrade though..... hopefully soon (hint, hint [:)])

Andrew Feil

Thanks Bob. This is really needed... the marketing just isn't clear and leads people to assume we have to spend a huge chunk of money.

Jeremiah

Very well said at each point, Nathanael.

I would have to say that this software upgrade rollout creates more questions than answers. It definitely puts Logos in the financial driver's seat and the loyal (highly invested) customers simply having to trust that the packages that are offered are a good deal.

I know that I am having a very hard time believing that a $687 upgrade price is a good deal for something that I just paid $1500 for six months ago.

I know there is new content. But I looked at each item in the new content list and while there are a few items of enduring value in there, most of it is fluff.

Bottom line is this. And I really hope that Logos is listening. I offer this in humility and with good will. This product rollout (not necessarily the product itself) seems more about getting people to spend huge sums of money than about getting a worthy product into the hands of ready users for a reasonable price.

I am reminded of Martin Luther's illustration of how a shoemaker glories God in his work. "… make a good shoe and sell it at a fair price."

It seems to me that there is a better way that Logos could simply make a good product and sell it for a good price.

Mark

Jason

If I had just purchased L4 six months ago, I would understand the confusion. My suggestion to you is to wait until there is a cross grade in which you will either be able to update what you have to L5 for free or for a price that would be less than $100 to get the new data bases. That is what many of us are doing. We are simply waiting.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

If I purchase Silver at $400+ I will get most of the new databases, but apparently not the church history timeline (since the Gold upgrade specifically mentions it adds church history timeline). Starter and Bronze have fewer of the new databases included. In the description of the crossgrade option it sounds as though all the new databases are included at a cost likely to be under $100.

Would you clarify that?

The new Logos 5 Timeline feature is available starting at Bronze. From http://www.logos.com/basepackages: "Logos 5 Bronze comes with the essentials for studying the Bible by passage and topic, as well as digging into original languages. It includes the Timeline". The logos.com/upgrade comparison chart also shows Timeline starting in Bronze.

Where are you seeing that Gold "adds church history timeline"? (It sounds like that page is in error, and we can correct it if we know which one it is.)

The Minimal Crossgrade contents haven't been established yet, but as Bob said, "we expect it will contain all/most of the unique new data sets (Timeline, ...)". This will probably allow you to get the Timeline for under $100, but you won't get any of the new books in the Logos 5 Silver package; you'll have to decide if those resources are worth the upgrade price for you.

ManilaDave

Hi Bob!

Your post and another that explains why the engine only offering must wait. You have put me in my "place" and let me know exactly where I stand and the extent to which you appreciate my business and my customer loyalty to Logos. In just under 3 years I've spent $ 12,264.18 on Logos 4. That's on top of previous versions. My current orders for pre-pubs stands at $ 6,219.15 while my Community Pricing bids amount to $ 587. You have every spare cent I could afford over the last 3 years as I have been moving from a paper based library to an electronic one. What I have just heard you say is that I'm a less important customer to you because I don't have the capacity to upgrade right now. I feel insulted and devalued as a customer. I'm not asking to be given any priority as a [formerly] loyal customer. I'm only asking for equality of access. I hope your balancing act works out for you - that is, I hope for your sake that the money you take in through this marketing strategy more than makes up for the customers you will lose. Since money rather than loyal customers was the consideration in your strategy I just want you to know that I'm canceling the $6,806.15 worth of orders I have with you and won't be doing any more business with you.

Best regards,

David

Pastor Daniel Winchester

Bob, thank you for the clear and honest information about Logos 5 upgrades, God Bless You [:)]

Jeremy

Sorry to be late to the party. I was a beta tester for Logs 4, but got no invitation to Logos 5. Wa wa wa! I really haven't been around here much lately anyway.

Is there a link to a page that shows what books you will get in addition to what you have if you switch from Gold L4 to Gold L5?

David Thomas

Is there a link to a page that shows what books you will get in addition to what you have if you switch from Gold L4 to Gold L5?

http://www.logos.com/upgrade

Ward Walker

...

B. The line between features and resources is becoming increasingly blurry, and this is something that needs clarity brought to it. Especially considering that you probably can't expect your average user to understand the difference between a feature requiring a new data-set, a feature not requiring a new data-set, and a resource....

Jason Hauser

This whole new method of rolling out functionality and features in a delayed manner makes customers who have previously spent a lot of money but currently are not prepared to buy the newest offered bundle for hundreds of dollars, feel unappreciated. Why not release the update to everyone and then simply note that if you want to have data show up in your new timeline or other new resource dependent features you need to buy a bundle that includes it whether big or small?

Amazon which is a secular company does a much better job of placing a high value on customer satisfaction. Bezos has been very successful in noting that if you take really good care of customers you will build incredible loyalty and your business will thrive in the long run. Everyone I know who is a Logos user, whether in personal conversations, or online is not impressed with how this is all going down. I for one won't be recommending Logos to others like I once did with great enthusiasm.

JT (alabama24)

Why not release the update to everyone and then simply note that if you want to have data show up in your new timeline or other new resource dependent features you need to buy a bundle that includes it whether big or small?

When Logos released the Perseus collection, they had to stagger downloads for users due to demands upon the servers. It's not as simple as just letting everyone at it all at once. If you were visiting the website the last several days, you know that Logos had difficulties keeping everything up and running… WIth that in mind, why shouldn't those who are paying for updated resources get first dibs? Again, Logos will be providing the engine for free once the demand has settled down a bit.

Robert Tague

Thanks Bob. I was concerned about the cost of the upgrade and since I am new to LOGOS (less than a month) I was afraid that you were pulling a Microsoft or an Apple on us.

I have many years of bi-vocational experience in the computer industry, and I know that it is expensive to maintain and upgrade a software package. So thank you for explaining what is going on. I will try to be patient as I wait for the crossgrade package to come along.

I will probably upgrade to gold as soon as I pay off my LOGOS 4 bill, in about 10 or 11 months. I hope I can get a good deal then.

Thank You,

Robert Tague

ManilaDave

I understand your point. But the issue is somewhat larger than that. As in biblical interpretation context, context, context is all important. Logos needs to stop and ask why some loyal Logos customers are not able to upgrade at this point. There are many of us who are [or rather, were] committed to building our libraries electronically with Logos and have been investing all we could spare on a monthly basis. We can't make the investment now precisely because Logos already has all our discretionary income. And precisely because we have been regular monthly purchasers of Logos products - the backbone of Logos' cash flow [i.e. the backbone of Logos' business which enabled them to keep the development going], we are now devalued as customers.

There is another aspect to this as well. Once the initial roll out is completed Logos will raise the price of its offer to us. After all their offer to us states a price that is "today only"! So not only do we backbone customers get devalued in the new launch we get shafted on price later.

I've raised a similar issue before without response from Logos. When they cluster the release dates of many pre-pubs around the same time we're often forced to choose between resources we really want and make a priority choice on the basis of the resource we consider most valuable to us at that moment. I suggested that in the case where this happens that Logos hold the pre-pub price open for a period for the customers who through their pre-pub order enabled the product to get to production in the first place. But I received no response. I've been unable to purchase several resources [all collections or sets] I really wanted because of this.

- David

ManilaDave

I absolutely agree, Jason. Bob talks about the need to recover the costs of developing the software. What he is forgetting is that many of us are the backbone of Logos' cash flow, spending significant money EVERY MONTH in his company thus enabling him to develop the upgrades. Without us he wouldn't have an upgrade to offer! The reason many of us loyal customers can't upgrade at this time is because of our investment with his company. In devaluing us at the launch time in favour of many that will turn out to be once off and occasional customers is risking cutting off the life blood of his company - cash flow.

tom

I made the call to go ahead even with the rough edges.

And once again, it caused more work in the long run than it would have to taken care of the rough edges before the release. Not only do you still have to smooth the same rough edges, you have to do some damage control. In another post, you spoke of the low profit margin Logos has for this year. Question, how much does doing damage control cut into your profit margins?

Jeffery Ferrell

Thanks Bob for the explanation. I have been a user long enough that I trust the heart of the company. I was a little taken aback when I saw my upgrade price for platinum to platinum. But I also believe that Logos is focused on helping people get deep into the word of God. I love what you're doing keep up the great work!

JT (alabama24)

I will probably upgrade to gold as soon as I pay off my LOGOS 4 bill, in about 10 or 11 months. I hope I can get a good deal then.

When you stick around Logos long enough (and visit the forums at least somewhat regularly), you will discover seasonal discounts. Logos isn't obligated, of course, to offer the same kinds of sales each year… but they probably will. There are generally big sales related to Black Friday / Christmas. There is also another large sale called "March Madness." This year, with the introduction of new base packages, things might be a bit different.

Dan Cousins

Heavenly Father we pray for your incredible blessing and favour for Bob Pritchett and Logos as a company. Ultimately, we thank you for your divine Word that truly wrecks us and rebuilds us into your image, but we also thank you for modern tools that help to study, learn, and prepare that Word fully and efficiently.

We ask you Lord that you meet every financial need in the company with an abundance that can only come as an extension of your grace. As Bob leads with strength and humility, let that overflow pour into his lap and may his faith RISE over any bill, debt, or future endeavor that is before him.

In so doing, we believe that you will give him and the whole team the wisdom necessary to steer through this momentary frustration. There is an answer that covers all the bases! And it is found in YOU FATHER! Thank you in advance for this supernatural provision.

Bob, and Logos team, we bless you and speak favor into all that you are going through. May God's supernatural grace, righteousness, favor, and abundance fill you to overflowing and spill into your lap.

Okay I feel better now I was in the frustrated category for the last few days (trying to justify any upgrade to my wife on a church planters salary). Anyway, woke up praying for you all and found it a better approach. Sorry it took us so long Bob.

:Dan Cousins (Church Planter from British Columbia, Canada)

David Braak

I am typically one who looks forward to upgrades of software, but Logos 4 did nothing for me. I hope Logos 5 is truly an upgrade. Before Logos 4, I was an avid user of your software. With the "upgrade," however, I found the software confusing and unusable. I've felt the money I spent purchasing the Gold Edition of Logos 4 has gone to waste. Now, looking at another version coming out, I'm wondering if it's worth upgrading or if I should uninstall Logos 4 and try re-installing the old program that worked for me.

Philana Crouch

I am typically one who looks forward to upgrades of software, but Logos 4 did nothing for me. I hope Logos 5 is truly an upgrade. Before Logos 4, I was an avid user of your software. With the "upgrade," however, I found the software confusing and unusable. I've felt the money I spent purchasing the Gold Edition of Logos 4 has gone to waste. Now, looking at another version coming out, I'm wondering if it's worth upgrading or if I should uninstall Logos 4 and try re-installing the old program that worked for me.

David,

Welcome to the forums! I'm sorry you had trouble using Logos 4. If choose to keep Logos 4 or upgrade to Logos 5 I hope you will come to the forums and ask for help. If you don't know how to do something or are confused just ask your question in the forums. You will likely get an answer pretty quick.

Chris Bell

I'm encouraged to read that a crossgrade is coming soon. I'm not a Logos 4 power user and originally purchased the Bible Study Library (LE). My upgrade to Logo 5 moves me to the Bronze level but I'm not in a position to spend $330. It appears I can upgrade to the Starter level for $70. Though, I'm wondering if it would be still cost effective for me to wait for the crossgrade.

Thoughts?

David Thomas

I'm encouraged to read that a crossgrade is coming soon. I'm not a Logos 4 power user and originally purchased the Bible Study Library (LE). My upgrade to Logo 5 moves me to the Bronze level but I'm not in a position to spend $330. It appears I can upgrade to the Starter level for $70. Though, I'm wondering if it would be still cost effective for me to wait for the crossgrade.

Thoughts?

Have you seen the post about 5 entries above yours that reads:

Both will give you the L5 appearance and engine. The crossgrade (subject to confirmation of details) will give you the new datasets used in L5. L5 Starter will give you a few new books but not all the datasets and related program features: see the bottom end of the comparison table at logos.com/upgrade.

If still in doubt, wait for the crossgrade and make your decision when all of the options are on the table.

Mlthrbrry

the answer to that question is that they already have our money

Scott G. Lewis

Robert, don't let a payment plan hold you back. While my base package was paid off a long time ago (4 times actually, as I went from Leader's to Scholar's the Silver to Gold, if I recall), I still had a payment plan from some other content I bought 6 months ago. It's generally how I operate. For me, $5 a month in service charge is a great deal to get a thousand or two thousand dollars worth of content now, for 1/12th the price.

Take a look at http://www.logos.com/upgrade - as I did, and click on "new to you" as you browse the various packages. Don't worry about where you are now. If you have Platinum and go to Gold, you don't "lose" any platinum books. You keep 100% of what you had, and get 100% of what's new in that new base package. For me, it was about $120 more to go from v4 Gold to v5 Platinum then to go from Gold to Gold. And rather than wait a few weeks for the crossgrade, I took a good look at what was in Platinum, and decided I wanted it. And I keep all my old stuff, including things like NIV 1984 that are no longer available at any level, or even separately.

But keep paying your payment plan. You agreed to buy something, and have used it for 5 months, but haven't finished paying for it yet. But don't assume you have to "start over", or "wait".

In my case, I keep my Logos monthly budget pretty fixed. Every time I pay something off, I buy something new, but keep the monthly the same, so it's easy for me to budget for my library building. I called Logos on the phone, and they were 100% willing to add in the upgrade to my existing payment plan, resetting it from 6 months to 12 months in the process. The monthly was a bit more than I had budgeted for, so I spoke to my wife, gave them a one time $200 payment, and ended up with a monthly price in our range (went up about $10 a month in my case). The rep even noticed I had my next payment due in 3 days, and spoke to accounting to cancel it, so 12 months starts next month, not in 3 days. That made the $200 even more tolerable for me!

I suspect that even if it was ethical to start over (it's not), it's cheaper to upgrade now with the special pricing than throw away what you paid and pay full price for your package. Or, if you are 100% satisfied with what you have now, content-wise, but like what v5 offers feature-wise - wait a bit, and drop the $100 or less on the crossgrade. But like any other software purchase, once you buy it, you pay for future upgrades, even if they happen 5 weeks after you bought. In Logos' case you have a 30 day return policy. Go buy Microsoft Office at a local store, and try to return it after opening it. They are trying to be fair here, but also stay in business, which as a paying customer with thousands in content, I need... if they go away tomorrow, I have a lot of money invested...

Bob Pritchett

There is another aspect to this as well. Once the initial roll out is completed Logos will raise the price of its offer to us. After all their offer to us states a price that is "today only"! So not only do we backbone customers get devalued in the new launch we get shafted on price later.

I hope you'll find that the initial discounts are in place long enough to be available when you want them. If you're unable to participate then because you're already committed to too many pre-pubs, give us a call. We don't want anyone to feel taken advantage of or abused in any way, and if so we'll do whatever we can to make it right.

I've raised a similar issue before without response from Logos. When they cluster the release dates of many pre-pubs around the same time we're often forced to choose between resources we really want and make a priority choice on the basis of the resource we consider most valuable to us at that moment. I suggested that in the case where this happens that Logos hold the pre-pub price open for a period for the customers who through their pre-pub order enabled the product to get to production in the first place. But I received no response. I've been unable to purchase several resources [all collections or sets] I really wanted because of this.

I'm sorry you didn't get a response sooner. This is an ongoing topic of discussion here, and we need to balance many concerns. Among the issues: the books are produced in parallel. Hundreds of people are working on many resources at once, and with 2,000+ shipping per year to every-possible-permutation of customers, it's impossible to "smart schedule" the release dates. Extending the discount period seems like a good solution, but that effectively takes away the point of pre-pub, which is a discounted price for an early commitment. (If the price doesn't go up, everyone can wait a while to buy, then pre-pub is no different than just adding it to the web store at a fixed price.) There are possible solutions to this, and variant models we could try, but most of them require web coding that we haven't been able to get to yet.

Please do know that we're aware of this issue, and it gets a lot of thought and attention here. We are working on solutions.

Steve Maling

Hey, Dan Cousins,

Thanks for calling us into prayer, and for the prayer you offered. [:)]

Lee

Beautifully perfect response! Thank you for taking the time to clear things up, and offer us your great new features at a very reasonable rate.

Simply! Thank you and God bless!

Sam Emil

Great, very helpful, satisfying post, we love logos, thank you for all the hard work you are doing to make our bible study easier and more fun.

Robin Monks

Thanks for the answers, folks!

One more question to those who've made the jump to 5: will it overwrite 4 or install along side of it, and will it use existing resources I downloaded or re-download my entire library?

Kevin Becker

One more question to those who've made the jump to 5: will it overwrite 4 or install along side of it, and will it use existing resources I downloaded or re-download my entire library?

5 overwrites 4 and uses the same resources. However, there is still a big download because many resources were rebuilt for L5.

Rich Davis

Bob,

I join my brothers in Christ in thanking you for your honest and complete response to our questions. I only gained more respect for you and for the entire Logos team. Even though we can't truly afford it right now, because of you answer I'm tempted to just go ahead anyway and upgrade to Diamond!! :-)

David Rees

Thanks Bob, Don & Logos Team,

in light of your post I will be considering my options

regards

David

JT (alabama24)

in light of your post I will be considering my options

Welcome to the forums David! [:)]

Let us know if we can help in any way. Are you a current Logos user?

Bill Moore

I have L4 Platinum plus other resources picked up along the way. I seriously doubt I'll upgrade to L5 via a base package. There really are not enough attractive resources to me in L5 Platinum, Diamond, or Portfolio to justify the cost. I already have more than I know what to do with. [:)] The minimum crossgrade is attractive, if I rightly understand that it basically moves my resources into the update Logos program.

Besides, after taking a year to pay off my NICOT/NT plus ISBE, I have no inclination to get tied up in another long-term monthly Logos payment.

That said, I appreciate Logos as a company and as a Bible software package.

Rick

Bill, you are correct. You will keep your current resources.

Phillip D. Mosher

Mr. Pritchett, Thank you so very much for this clarification. Rev. Phillip D. Mosher

Robert I

Bob,

As a new customer who is still in my time frame of making monthly payments to be able to afford this software (spending over $600), this upgrade gives me the disappointing feeling that I should have waited. I feel like I do when I bought my iPad 3 weeks before the new model came out and was stuck with a significantly inferior product. This seems very disappointing to me, a new customer, just joining the Logos family. I feel overlooked. Just sharing my thoughts as I would keep paying for an outdated and replaced product. This was not for content but the whole package.

fgh

I would keep paying for an outdated and replaced product.

Actually, you'll be paying for a product that is better than you knew when you bought it. You'll get L5 when you thought you were only buying L4. You just need to wait a little while for the free engine to become available first.

As for the package content, if you compare what you have with some L5 package and decide the L5 one would suit you better, give Sales a call, and they might let you switch, depending on how long you've had it. Just remember you'd lose any resources that are in the old package but not the new.

JT (alabama24)

I feel like I do when I bought my iPad 3 weeks before the new model came out and was stuck with a significantly inferior product.

Do you know how silly it sounds for you to be complaining about this? Don't you know that Apple is always innovating? There will always be a "new" product? I struggle with always wanting the newest and best… but I realize that it is a part of my fallenness… It sounds like you are a little blind to this in yourself. With great kindness and respect, might I suggest meditating on Matthew 20:1-16?

I don't know when you purchased your base package from Logos. It sounds like you think it "wasn't too long ago," was it more than 30 days? Logos is fairly generous with their return policy. If you feel jipped, give them a call… but consider that Logos can't give everyone back their money who purchased X days ago. Where does it end?

FWIW – I would have preferred that Logos given advanced notice of perhaps a couple of weeks time. I think Logos could have done some things better… but they didn't do anything morally wrong.

Scott G. Lewis

Bob,

As a new customer who is still in my time frame of making monthly payments to be able to afford this software (spending over $600), this upgrade gives me the disappointing feeling that I should have waited. I feel like I do when I bought my iPad 3 weeks before the new model came out and was stuck with a significantly inferior product. This seems very disappointing to me, a new customer, just joining the Logos family. I feel overlooked.

I don't think that's fair. How many months in are you? Did you buy 2 months ago? 4 months ago? If it's sooner - call them. Like you should have done with your iPad, since Apple has a 30 day return policy and you could have switched it out. By the way, the iPad 3 like Logos 4 is far from a "significantly inferior product". Both were replaced by newer products, but both are fantastic. I should know... I have the iPad 3, and up until a couple of days ago, I had Logos 4.

The good news, is you can keep using Logos 4. Soon you get Logos 5, for free, with limited new functionality, for a small crossgrade fee, for lots of new functionality, or if you want tons of new features and new content, you can tack on a new base package to your existing payment plan.

But you are decidedly not being asked to keep paying for an outdated and replaced product. You are on an installment plan. You spent the $XXX already, but they agreed to defer some of the payments. If you had done this on a credit card, rather than a Logos payment plan, it'd be the same. You'd still be paying off your purchase. My car is now two years out of date, and the newer model is superior in many ways. They even introduced some new features that I wish I could get, such as a hybrid engine as an option. I still pay monthly, for what I already have, however.

Soon, you'll see this happen again. The iPad 5 will be out. Logos 6 will be out. There will be nicer cars than mine.

Tim Engwer

I purchased the Silver upgrade which does not include the Bible Sense Lexicon (did not have enough money to buy the Gold version). Will this be available to me to purchase at a reasonable price separately down the road so I have all the new L5 features?

David Thomas

Will this be available to me to purchase at a reasonable price separately down the road so I have all the new L5 features?

See Bob's statement at the very beginning of this thread - Final decisions have not been made, it is intended that the grossgrade will have "all/most of the datasets"

Robin Monks

I purchased the Silver upgrade which does not include the Bible Sense Lexicon (did not have enough money to buy the Gold version). Will this be available to me to purchase at a reasonable price separately down the road so I have all the new L5 features?

If that is part of the minimal crossgrade you'll be able to get it at a discount. If not, you'll be waiting for Gold to come on sale for an acceptable price.

John Jordan

Thanks Bob for your reply. This adds clarity your sales and marketing team seem to have failed to convey.

I look forward to less sales pitches and more honest promotions and assurance (with dates and consistent behavior) that my investment into Logos will continue into new versions with simplicity and reliability.

Excited for your new "baby". I'm also excited to partner with Logos ($110 in pre-pub orders) to help release new content for you to sell.

Please let us know dates when these new options will be available.

Ken Shawver

Bob,

As a long time LOGOS user, I greatly appreciate you stepping and helping clarify things that make total sense from within LOGOS, but may be confusing to us on the outside. Your decision to make the software available and sell content is one of the main reasons I started my investment into LOGOS.

Though the packages are at a good price mfor the number of resources. I, like many others, do not have the finances to buy one of those packages. I am glad that you do understand that and look forward to getting the crossgrade. I am hoping that the Minimum Crossgrade will be feasible when it comes out.

I also do not take issues with LOGOS paying the bills because, I for one, want LOGOS to be around for a long time.

Thanks again Bob, as a former Logos Ambassador, and Net Promoter for LOGOS. Have a blessed day.

Tim Engwer

Thanks for the clarification. Am I correct that the only thing I am missing by not upgrading to Gold is the Bible Sense Lexicon?

lifeofworship

Mr. Bob Pritchett,

I'm trying to understand your comments… I see that you mentioned the following:

"Upgrading just the engine will let you use some new functionality, take advantage of the new user interface, etc. You'll get the search helps, bibliography report, and more. But features that require specific new data sets -- like the new Timeline, Bible Facts, and the Bible Sense Lexicon -- aren't included."

"Over the years this turned into "you only buy books, the software is free!" And that has been the case for 17 years, and still is. And for all those years we have continued to offer free updates, free phone support, and excellent customer service. And we still will."

Question: If the software is free and the consumer only purchases the resources (books), why won't all of the new features available in Logos 5 be available to someone who upgrades the software engine only? Is this because there are specific resources that utilize these features? What exactly is a dataset if it is not a feature or some type of functionality?

Somewhat confused...

Frank

Unix

It's the data.

What exactly is a dataset if it is not a feature or some type of functionality?

spitzerpl

What exactly is a dataset if it is not a feature or some type of functionality?

A function is a feature of the program that requires code. A data set is information that an individual or individuals sat down and manually compiled or created. With L3 Logos depended on code to pull all information together. I am one of those that found this to be insufficient. It is very hard for code to determine the value a given source adds to a specific topic. someone sat down and determined the most valuable information to present to a user and compiled this information into a data set. You are paying for the manual efforts of an individual or research team when you purchase a data set, much the same way you pay for the author's work when they write a book. some functions in L5 are dependant on datasets. In other words the timeline function is not code that simply goes through your library and pulls information from your resources automatically. It is a function that depends on the data someone manually compiled. The bibliography document, however, does not depend on any data sets for its full functionality. Thus it will be a part of any free upgrade because it is completely code dependent. I hope this all makes sense.

David Thomas

What exactly is a dataset if it is not a feature or some type of functionality?

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58983.aspx

Bob Pritchett

I just edited the original message to add:

Brent James

Bob,

Thanks so much for making this option available. I will definitely be upgrading when it becomes possible. I definitely want to support the work and ministry of Logos.

Tim Engwer

I have already bought the Silver edition and love the new content - Good Job! If I understand you correctly the Silver edition will be reconfigured to include all the new features some of which I do not have since I upgraded a week ago. What does this mean for someone like myself? Will I be able to get the additional features?

DMB

Tim ... Bob wasn't really clear on his new addition as to whether it was L4 Silver or L5 Silver. But I assume for you to complete the feature set you want, you're going to need to cough up some more dough on the high end of his range.

But you're lucky. I don't have any of those packages he listed. So I'll probably have to get the L5 engine.

Greg B

Bob

I think the fact that I can access my library (with the understandable license restrictions imposed on Logos) from my Android phone (or iPhone, if you are into that kind of thing) and not pay a dime more speaks volumes of Logos support for their existing customer base. I understand that the data sets represent content not software. These and the engine are the only thing I am really interested in and I will patiently wait for them. You have used the word "soon" enough times that I understand it won't be a long wait.

Sometimes I bristle at the price of a particular volume but the flip side of this is the excellent support that Logos gives it existing customers.

Thanks for all you do,

Greg

Phil Gons (Logos)

I have already bought the Silver edition and love the new content - Good Job! If I understand you correctly the Silver edition will be reconfigured to include all the new features some of which I do not have since I upgraded a week ago. What does this mean for someone like myself? Will I be able to get the additional features?

Tim, glad you're enjoying your purchase! The only thing you're missing at Logos 5 Silver is the Bible Sense Lexicon data. Thanks to dynamic pricing, you'll be able to purchase the Minimal Crossgrade and pay only for the content you don't yet own, which should just be the BSL data. I'd expect that to be relatively inexpensive.

James William Roberts, Jr.

What about the Personal Book Builder. From what I am seeing the forums it has not been out that long and now there is a new software version. Does L5 have a personal book builder in it? Will books created in PBB L4 work in L5?

DMB

James .... Personal Book Builder picks up in L5 right where you left it in L4. And of course it includes the assists to managing sermons that were introduced recently in L4.

No worries there.

Naveen Balakrishnan

Phil,

My question was based on the basic minimal crossgrade which may lack one or two features. I was wondering if it would be feasible to get all the features of L5 with the requisite datasets without any more additional stuff (core-sets for example)? I want the minimal crossgrade with all the features of L5 without any other necessary or unnecessary sets (the price now looks like it is going to be around 150 instead of the around 100 figure).

In Christ Alone and for His Glory

Naveen

Jeremiah 15:16

Mitchell

My question was based on the basic minimal crossgrade which may lack one or two features. I was wondering if it would be feasible to get all the features of L5 with the requisite datasets without any more additional stuff (core-sets for example)? I want the minimal crossgrade with all the features of L5 without any other necessary or unnecessary sets (the price now looks like it is going to be around 150 instead of the around 100 figure).

I think we're at the point now where Logos has told us all they can definitively tell us about the minimal crossgrades, and we'll just have to wait until next week to see how it shakes out in the details.

Naveen Balakrishnan

Patience then is the key. After all Paul mandates to us that we are to be patient with all men. No point fretting.

In Christ Alone and for His Glory

Naveen

Ezra 7:10

PHILLIP LEACH

Yes, thank you on the clarification. I, too, was about to say good-bye to LOGOS and just assume that it had become something that only rich pastors of huge churches could afford. I'm a missionary, no pay increases to fund the current inflation caused by our dramatically devaluing dollar, and I'm in debt as it is... I just can't afford to pay $300-$500 for ONE book set as it come to be, or over $100/mo for a major upgrade. I've stretched and stretched the finances to get the package I have now (Scholar's), so when I look at the prices of the upgrades, I just don't have the money — and besides, I really don't need all that new content. I already HAVE what I need. So, I DO appreciate hearing about the planned FREE upgrades for those of us in the same boat as me — as well as the minimal upgrades you mentioned. As one of the original beta-testers of the original CD-Word when the idea was hatched out of Dallas Seminary back when dinosaurs walked the earth (circa 1989), I really do have a heart connection to this program as well as a functional one. Thank you for not alienating those of us who are struggling to survive on our allowances/salaries. It really DOES mean a lot to us. Thanks again. A continuing loyal partner of LOGOS... albeit a poor one!... —Phil Leach

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

Does L5 have a personal book builder in it? Will books created in PBB L4 work in L5?

Yes, Logos 5 has a Personal Books tool plus Logos 4 created personal books work in Logos 5:

Keep Smiling [:)]

Jack Caviness

But I assume for you to complete the feature set you want, you're going to need to cough up some more dough on the high end of his range.

Disagree. If Tim already has L5 Silver, then only one Data Set—Bible Sense Lexicon—remains for him to purchase. Thus, his price should be much lower than the "high end of his range". (The BWS, Septuagint will be available to owners of Bronze when the Swete version is completed.)

EDIT: See that Phil already responded to Tim with this answer.

Scott Pixler

Thanks for this revelation Bob... to me it is not a clarification because I saw nothing about it at all before... clarity was not the issue. This info was absent. I am greatly relieved to know this. My finances are extremely limited right now so what was originally offered was out of my reach. I also appreciate what you said:

17 years ago we made a decision to sell content, not code. We did this because we didn't like how people were forced to buy upgrades to maintain access to their library when computers and operating systems changed or were upgraded. We wanted our users to be able to buy an electronic book and know that they wouldn't have to pay again to read it just because Microsoft Windows was updated.

Many years ago I bought the Expositor's Bible Commentary from Zondervan and used it with Windows 95 and 98 to great advantage. When I upgraded to Win XP, I had to buy it again (still with Zondervan) under the name Pradis 5.1. Now I am unable to use it with my newer computer and although I have already bought it twice, Logos tells me that to use it with my Logos Library, I must buy it a THIRD time. This is not right. I'm just sayin'...

Larry Sterling Jr.

No offense...but this launch was poorly handled. How many customers did you lose by rushing an incomplete launch. I am L4 Platinum user, been a customer since L2...all I want is to upgrade for new functionality not books. I will wait for the crossgrade, but I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time. Your strategy of "paying the bills" does not impact me since I am not a new customer. In fact, since it was terrible launch how many customers needlessly paid hundreds of dollars? Especially since you are fundamentally changing the way Logos will work, i.e. only Gold level receives full functionality, and without reading this post in the forum you may have duped many unsuspecting customers out of needed funds. One more bad launch like this and it could really cost you, and that would be a shame. But I still haven't decided to stay with you, again I wait for the crossgrade, and if I am not impressed, I am moving on to a company that has not lost sight of the most important thing, the customer.

David Thomas

I had to buy it again (still with Zondervan) under the name Pradis 5.1. Now I am unable to use it with my newer computer and although I have already bought it twice, Logos tells me that to use it with my Logos Library, I must buy it a THIRD time. This is not right. I'm just sayin'...

1. I can read EBC in Pradis 5.1 and Pradis 6.0 running under Win7 64 bit. I don't know what newer computer you have that won't run it

2. What obligation does Logos have to give you a product just because Zondervan won't support their own product any more?

David Thomas

I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time

I believe Bob has already explained that Server traffic and Logos's customer support and sales teams were incapable of handling all this activity at once. Imagine 70,000 people all leaving a stadium at once. Each fan believes he has a right to go to his car and drive straight to the exit, but the stadium staff and availability of traffic lanes means some people will have to wait longer than they want. In order to avoid road rage in the parking lot, they have chosen a staggered release.

It would have been impractical to buy new servers and hire/train more staff for a 3-4 week release of a new product.

DMB

David ... I didn't know that. I always wondered what all the cars did the minute the event was over.

Jeff O'Neal

David Thomas: Imagine 70,000 people all leaving a stadium at once...

I hope you do not bend your hermenuetics around your own worldly ideas the way you analogized this one. What Logos did was more like making 70,000 people think they had to buy season tickets to be able to leave the stadium then back off to saying they would let those who bought season tickets leave and at some point, they would decide when and how the others could leave -- maybe in a week or two.

"For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Jas 2:2–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

I have it from a top man that Logos does aspire to adhere to Biblical principles while they also desire to righteously pay bills. They have conceded this was not the best job of marketing they could have done, so we need to forgive and move on -- lesson learned for all concerned. It will not help folks to move on though, if you try to paint this as done properly and anybody to who says otherwise is wrong.

ManilaDave

I wonder if many of us are not losing perspective over this issue, like I did? Richard Rohr, in an interesting lecture, pointed out that success has very little to teach us after the age of about 35. We need success up to that point for reasons of self-esteem, building confidence in our abilities, etc., but after age 35 he claims that we have more to learn from failure than from success. If failure and mistakes provide one of the most fertile grounds for learning then we can have nothing but confidence that customer service from Logos will go from strength to strength in the future.

What lasting damage has Logos done to us that is beyond forgiveness? Do we not still possess the best Bible software on the planet with the prospect of a free upgrade to make it even better? What have we lost? We still have the software we were so pleased with a few short weeks ago. We can still continue our ministries and our study unhindered. We've suffered a blow to our pride and a sting to our sense of self-importance as loyal customers. Maybe we needed that to reveal ourselves to ourselves and make us better followers of the crucified One? If so, then the mistakes that Bob acknowledged he made, (and apologized for), in launching L5 in the way he did, while placing us at a temporal disadvantage, but only in so far as the L5 upgrade is concerned, have done us ultimate (spiritual) good.

Is it possible to re-conceive our relationship with Logos on more than a business / customer basis? Could we not, rather, in some way see ourselves in fellowship with each other in the body of Christ? Can we see Logos in service to us providing us incredible tools for ministry and study which enable us to do our preparatory work more efficiently and effectively giving us more time for the other demands in our lives than we would otherwise have? Can we see ourselves in service to Logos, feeding back into Logos our experiences, needs and, yes, dissatisfactions, hurts and concerns to enable them to serve us better? And could it be with a spirit of forbearance and love in which we are prepared to carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ?

DMB

Well, I know the ushers at our church check for gold rings and 'fine clothing'.

"Would that be Brooks Brothers, sir?" "Here ... let me provide you one of our best seats." (near the front where everyone else refuses to sit).

This caught my eye with the Semitic resource discussion on giving pearls to pigs (whether an aramaism or not).

This morning the javelina were blocking the street AGAIN. If only the NT had not banned pearls. "Here boy, here boy ... "

Ok ... back to trying to figure out the cars-in-the-stadium problem.

David Thomas

if you try to paint this as done properly and anybody to who says otherwise is wrong.

The point I was trying to make is that a little patience is helpful. I was not attempting to imply that "anybody who says otherwise is wrong". In a perfect world (if it ever existed) everybody would get what they want when they want it. But there are times when we each must wait longer than we wish.

I was trying to educate that there may be an additional perspective. Profit was not the ONLY consideration that prompted Logos to roll out the way they did. Bob has admitted that company profits were part of the equation, but electronic distribution and customer service were also considered.

Also, you have NO idea of my biblical hermeneutics and are out of line to imply they are improper! I was NOT attempting to explain a Biblical truth, I was attempting to illustrate the reality of limited access and staffing.

Dave M

Michael, I can really sympathize with you. You should not have to do "diagnostic logging" or go through any other electronic manipulations to get the program which you spent more than a few dollars on to run.

Jack Caviness

Michael, I can really sympathize with you. You should not have to do "diagnostic logging" or go through any other electronic manipulations to get the program which you spent more than a few dollars on to run.

Would it then be better for him to be without the resources he purchased. If he is having problems that others are not having, how else can Logos find and correct the problem?

Besides, you have responded to a two-week old post. His last posts mentioned contact with Logos Tech Support. That was on November 2, but he never reported the final result of that contact—at least not in this thread. Since he never came back, I would assume that the problem was corrected. However, you may assume anything you wish.

Scott Pixler

David,

As for #1, my new computer is a Macbook Pro and it definitely won't run my Pradis 5.1 Software which is made for WIn XP.

As for #2, We are talking about rights to digital products here. I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice! I now have a wonderful computer and wonderful Logos software that includes the EBC, but I am told that as far as Logos is concerned, I don't own it! It would not cost Logos anything to give me access to the digital product of which I have demonstrable ownership. I would compare this to losing the use of my car (which I already own) because the county or state government changed! I quoted Bob's statement about Logos's desire to not force people to re-purchase digital books merely because their operating system changed. That is essentially what is happening here and I don't see what is unreasonable or hard to understand about it!

Todd Phillips

I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice!

You bought the limited rights to use it in a certain format. That is Zondervan's decision, not Logos'. Zondervan is the one who limited your rights when you purchased the product. Zondervan was very annoying about this, and it's one reason Pradis didn't succeed. You didn't buy unlimited rights to use it in any way you see fit. Most digital license agreements are specific about this.

Logos pays licensing fees to Zondervan for every Zondervan product they unlock in Logos. They just can't give Zondervan's products away for free.

Once you have a book in Logos format, then you will not have to pay again to use it in any Logos software. But if you switch software again, don't expect your Logos licenses to follow you to that new software. License agreements are very strict and limited to the companies involved. You won't find an unlimited use license anywhere, when it comes to copyrighted material.

JT (alabama24)

We are talking about rights to digital products here. I have already bought and paid for the rights to the Expositor's Bible Commentary twice! I now have a wonderful computer and wonderful Logos software that includes the EBC, but I am told that as far as Logos is concerned, I don't own it!

I hate to tell you this, but it is still true that you don't own it! When you purchase electronic media (other media as well), you are entering into a license agreement… That agreement gives you certain rights and responsibilities. The content holders want to restrict you as much as possible (they WANT you to purchase it over and over!). As a consumer, you (and I) want as much freedom as possible (some people would buy a book and give it away to all their friends). The agreement (plus sometimes digital rights management) is what keeps one side from walking over the other. Logos is a "middle man" and a "value added reseller." Logos must enforce the licensing agreements they have signed with publishers. Do do otherwise would be legally and morally wrong.

Another thing to consider: Logos is a "value added reseller." Logos doesn't give its users files which come straight from the publisher… they reformat them, add tagging, etc. When you purchase a Logos resource, a portion goes to Logos. Don't Logos employees have a right to eat? [;)]

Mitchell

It would not cost Logos anything to give me access to the digital product of which I have demonstrable ownership.

Unfortunately, this statement is untrue. Unless Zondervan has made a special arrangement with Logos (and it seems they have not), Logos has to pay the publisher for every copy of a resource they unlock in a user's account. You may wish to contact Zondervan, since as the publisher they are presumably the ones with the power to waive this.

Milford Charles Murray

Is it possible to re-conceive our relationship with Logos on more than a business / customer basis? Could we not, rather, in some way see ourselves in fellowship with each other in the body of Christ? Can we see Logos in service to us providing us incredible tools for ministry and study which enable us to do our preparatory work more efficiently and effectively giving us more time for the other demands in our lives than we would otherwise have? Can we see ourselves in service to Logos, feeding back into Logos our experiences, needs and, yes, dissatisfactions, hurts and concerns to enable them to serve us better? And could it be with a spirit of forbearance and love in which we are prepared to carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ?

Peace to you, ManilaDave! *smile* I, for one, appreciate your very noble and Christ-Centred thoughts! Thank You!

Leonard T. Stitt

Your pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.

This said from a user who bought the very first Logos program decades ago and has spent MANY thousands of dollars to get to the level of use (Platinum Edition) that I have currently.

Today I am in the process of removing all my pre-publication orders.

Good-bye from a long-time, loyal and now dissatisfied missionary user of Logos products.

Len Stitt

Executive Director

Sozo International

Graham Criddle

Hi Len - and welcome to the forums.

I would suggest you contact Logos directly to air your concerns. While Logos personnel do contribute to these forums they are mostly frequented by users who can't address grievances with Logos pricing and marketing strategy.

If, however, there are specific issues that we can potentially help clarify then please post back.

Graham

Unix

Over here ferry-lines between the countries have two pricing models: they both offer a year-card, and they give discount to loyal customers.

Your pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.

James Jordan

Just called in and spoke to a Logos sales person asking if I could go ahead and purchase the crossgrade. I was told that he hasn't heard anything about an ETA on the minimal crossgrade and it would not be this week.

Now to dig up where I saw that ETA and see if this is a Logos internal communication issue or someone giving bad information.

Unix

The time-frame is an estimate that Logos worker(s) could give, not official - they want a wiggle room of plus ~ 2 days or over the weekend of this week/minus ~ 1 day.

spoke to a Logos sales person asking if I could go ahead and purchase the crossgrade. I was told that he hasn't heard anything about an ETA on the minimal crossgrade and it would not be this week.
Now to dig up where I saw that ETA and see if this is a Logos internal communication issue or someone giving bad information.

Phil Gons (Logos)

No offense...but this launch was poorly handled. How many customers did you lose by rushing an incomplete launch. I am L4 Platinum user, been a customer since L2...all I want is to upgrade for new functionality not books. I will wait for the crossgrade, but I should not have to wait. It all should have been launched at the same time. Your strategy of "paying the bills" does not impact me since I am not a new customer. In fact, since it was terrible launch how many customers needlessly paid hundreds of dollars?

Larry, I agree that our launch wasn't executed as well as it should have been, and I'm very sorry for that. We underestimated how many people were not interested in continuing to build their libraries with more books at about 90% off our normal prices. To be sure, the majority of people have found our upgrade offerings quite compelling, but certainly not everyone. So we're working to make sure all customers are taken care of with options that meet their needs.

Especially since you are fundamentally changing the way Logos will work, i.e. only Gold level receives full functionality, and without reading this post in the forum you may have duped many unsuspecting customers out of needed funds. One more bad launch like this and it could really cost you, and that would be a shame.

In Logos 4, you got all features and data at Scholar's, but that was when there were four packages below Scholar's and Scholar's was our middle package. Now Gold is our middle package, so we decided to make it the place at which you get all features and data. Our Core Datasets and Minimal Crossgrade will allow people who don't want books to get there relatively inexpensively.

But I still haven't decided to stay with you, again I wait for the crossgrade, and if I am not impressed, I am moving on to a company that has not lost sight of the most important thing, the customer.

Thanks for giving us another opportunity to take care of you and earn your trust.

Robin Monks

Yay $6.14 to get the last data set

Mark Smith

Yay $6.14 to get the last data set

Must be another happy Silver upgrader. Way to go!

Jeffrey Visser

Hey, mine was 6.80 for the last dataset - I got ripped off!!! [:P]

Geo Philips

I got the minimal crossgrade. Great work Logos. It is just so much faster on Windows 8.

Out of curiosity, I tried to see what my upgrade price would be now to the Silver package, and behold, it is now more expensive than it was before I got the crossgrade. Has the package been upgraded with more resources?

Robin Monks

Nope; as soon as you get any base package the rest become higher... I'd asked the same question earlier on the thread. If you want to, within 30 days, ask for a return of the cross-grade and do the upgrade to silver, then get the cross-grade again to get the last dataset (it'll work out cheaper in the end)..

Geo Philips

Thanks Robin. That is complicated dynamic pricing for sure . I am not as sincere in my Bible study as I ought to be, so spending more, as alluring as it is, is probably not the best option for me right now.

I would like to get the Greek pronunciation add in though; is it available as a separate product? I remember seeing it for 19.95 eons ago (perhaps I am not thinking of the same product).

Robin Monks

I would like to get the Greek pronunciation add in though; is it available as a separate product? I remember seeing it for 19.95 eons ago (perhaps I am not thinking of the same product).

Pronunciation tools were a 4 base feature, hence why they aren't in the cross grade. They used to be available for separate purchase for 3, but were removed at some point (http://web.archive.org/web/20101110161518/http://www.logos.com/product/1667/original-languages-addin). You could call support and see if you can work something out, otherwise you'll need to upgrade to at least a Bronze package.

(Coincidentally, the Logos 4 Original Languages package was $415.95 - the Bronze base package with much more in 5 is $629.95. You can likely upgrade to Bronze now for much less than Original Languages for 4 would have cost you previously).

Phil Gons (Logos)

I would like to get the Greek pronunciation add in though; is it available as a separate product? I remember seeing it for 19.95 eons ago (perhaps I am not thinking of the same product).

Pronunciation tools were a 4 base feature, hence why they aren't in the cross grade. They used to be available for separate purchase for 3, but were removed at some point (http://web.archive.org/web/20101110161518/http://www.logos.com/product/1667/original-languages-addin). You could call support and see if you can work something out, otherwise you'll need to upgrade to at least a Bronze package.

We will be making a revised version of the Logos 4 Minimal Crossgrade available for people who are a few version behind and want to get caught up with functionality in 4.

Mark Twombly

Very pleased to install the Logos 5 engine only upgrade for Mac, and already seeing it is a vast improvement and a world of difference from Logos 4, both in terms of layout and speed.

I understand Logos' strategy of making upgrade packages available at first, and I can see how this is very valuable for many, but not all. I appreciate you guys making the engine only available, as I need access to the resources I have purchased but not necessarily the newer more advanced features.

Blessings,

Mark D. Twombly, Somerset, NJ