a question from an Accordance User
Comments
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@Frank Hodges @BKMitchell - we are on the same page. I hope to see a solid set of packages for Original Languages. It may be in part to my library growing over 20 years, but this is the first major update I have not bought a library package in the first few weeks after release. Maybe in Q1 next year!
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Is Q1 Oct-Dec? Or are we expecting a whole new set of libraries in January?
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Jan-Mar
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I like Jan-Mar. What would the Fall be if it were expressed in a similar way. I don’t like the Fall, it’s meaningless. But Jan-Mar, I could get behind that.
👁️ 👁️
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I agree. @MJ. Smith is there a feedback post for this that I can vote on? I know you've been advocating for it, and I think it's a great idea. I imagine opinions differ on how to incorporate Find into the Search bar, as "Find" and "Search" can be easily confused with one another. IIRC, Logos previously even had "Find" as the grey text identifying the search bar. I'm really happy this is no longer the case.
My personal opinion is that "Find" should be integrated as a button next to the inline search within the search tab. Hovering over the button would cause a pop-up to appear that would identify its unique function, i.e. "Find and jump to an exact match (not case sensitive)". Clicking the "Find" button would cause the Find search bar to appear, as it does currently.
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@Aaron Hamilton, I was going to quote your section, "is there a feedback post for this that I can vote on?" and as I tried, I can see why everyone is complaining about the quote function, as it not only copies the ENTIRE post, but there is no way to edit a part. Hopefully that will be fixed. Anyway, I had wanted to quote that part since while I think the feedback voting system is a good idea in many regards, I truly hope Logos does not ONLY look at votes, and sometimes works to implement something under the category of common sense. Such as being able to have more than one layout open at a time (the Accordance "Workspace"). Apart from the other issues of language I have mentioned, there is truly no way I could ever do serious work in Logos with ONE workspace open. That is just not even remotely sufficient for the type of work I do. I would argue if that voting thing doesn't have "enough" votes, it is because Logos users haven't experienced it and don't realize how helpful it is. I think a good analogy would be that Logos is like a 13 inch laptop (with one Layout), and Accordance is like having two 27 inch wide screen monitors. There are just certain tasks which require more Workspaces (Layouts) to be viewable at the same time.
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Fall is typically Q4, Oct-Dec.
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Just to clarify, are we expecting new libraries sometime during the quarter from January through March?
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Yes, it has explicitly been announced that the denominational libraries will come in Q1/25 i.e. January through March (I personally hope for a time shortly after we subscribers receive the 5% cashback coupon that needs to be spent in one go.)
Have joy in the Lord!
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@Kristin wrote:
Apart from the other issues of language I have mentioned, there is truly no way I could ever do serious work in Logos with ONE workspace open.
Oh, I'll bite on this again. Yes, I violently agree. I get around this by loading up my main space in the App and then using the web app for other workspaces.
Where is this useful? Particularly in Greek and Hebrew. If I am working on Greek, sometimes that will lead me to want to chase some trails with Hebrew. I don't want to close my workspace optimised for Greek and then open a Hebrew space. Then, sometimes, I want another space to look at historical trends in how scripture has been translated over the years. Again, I now use the web app for some of this, occasionally, a floating window or two, but it is sub-optimal.
If I could only change one thing about Logos, this would be it. Other pieces of software on my computer allow me to open multiple instances of the program in different windows… (i.e. browser, word processor, database…) It would be a game changer in research workflows for me to see this come to Logos as well.
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Donovan, I think your post was the first time (in years!) that someone asked to have multiple layouts open at the same time and I instantly thought "that makes sense." I'm glad to hear the Web App works for you as a workaround - for my taste it still is too underdeveloped (i.e. has no real feature parity with the desktop, starting with most basic, simple things like the library). The other alternative workaround is to run Logos and Verbum on the same machine, this allows two full-fledged layouts concurrently.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Personally, I haven't seen a 'use case' for multiple (independent) workspaces (layouts). The need for add-on layouts has been suggested for years (good old Steve, who's now gone to a much better place).
Kristin sees it, so obviously there must be a good 'use case'. My standard layout (6 windows) has one dedicated window for greek/NT analysis, and another window for hebrew/OT (both supplemented by translations … syriac, latin and so forth). And I make heavy use of multi-views for 'leader' management and reducing the links needed. I used to have Logos and Verbum operating independently. I also used Verbum-Mac along with Verbum-Mobile-Mac (big mistake). But both didn't add that much to just using multiple windows with independent links.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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There is a feedback item for this feature, though it seems it has lost some of its votes in the migration:
I appreciate this is not for everyone, but a feature like this, does not have to be used or even noticed by those that don't have a need for this.
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it has lost some of its votes in the migration
Feedbear, our previous ideation provider, would allow for anonymous or guest upvoting. We have done away with anonymous attribution of upvotes—as well as those anonymous or unverified upvotes themselves—with our migration.
Sr. Community Manager at Logos.
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Now that is so clear! Why can't people just say that.
👁️ 👁️
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You miss my point … I'm just saying for 'votes', there may be a need to explain why multiple workspaces are so valuable. I'd assume there's quite a bit of coding (expense), since the base design assumes a single space.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The feedback voting function has no standards for submitting an idea. It appears to be mostly a gauge of community interest rather than a place to put forward a business case. Whilst it is likely this is useful intel for Logos, I haven't seen any evidence that it influences the development roadmap significantly. I don't mean that critically; it is just an impression.
If I were to build a case for this, it would be based on changes in technology and UI standards since the launch of Logos 4. Studies about tabs, multiple desktop spaces, and multiple monitors would all factor into it. I would also cite research and study trends in contextual computing. As a reference, I would also add some comparisons to competitor products, though, because the Bible Software space is so limited compared to what it used to be, I would likely broaden it to include similar research tools, but not exclusive to our niche. I would also cite previous threads in which users advocated for this capability in their personal workflows.
Would that convince Logos or users who find the current design sufficient? Maybe not. It is just an idea that some hold on speculation that there might be a point when it will be seriously considered.
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I have seen this behavior in the past. And I don't like it. Logos is a complete control freak. Thats also why don't allow to contact other users per DM or PM. Only in Groups where you have the control. I really don't like it. For me Logos has signs of a serious sickness. Plus the messy syndrome.
- Bring "Ordnung" in your system.
- Treat us like adults.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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@Donovan R. Palmer Have you seen any evidence that Logos is thinking of create an Original Language library or basepackage? I mean Logos has not had a publicly available Original Language package since Logos 4!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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@BKMitchell wrote:
Have you seen any evidence that Logos is thinking of create an Original Language library or basepackage? I mean Logos has not had a publicly available Original Language package since Logos 4!
I used to track the development of some of the packages in the early days, but there become so many variations, that I peeled out.
I am not aware or seen mention of a new original language package. I think the substitute has been their 'Academic Package', in which I picked up some very useful greek language resources in version 10 (EGGNT). What would you like to see offered in the future?
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I have seen this behavior in the past. And I don't like it. Logos is a complete control freak. Thats also why don't allow to contact other users per DM or PM. Only in Groups where you have the control. I really don't like it. For me Logos has signs of a serious sickness. Plus the messy syndrome.
Bring "Ordnung" in your system.
Treat us like adults.
Please be accurate when tossing around evaluations. The pulling of the DM/PM capability was in response to user concerns. I have had a few people from the forums contact me personally - it only takes a bit of creativity to do so. There is a component of the Logos/Verbum community who are justifiably paranoid about potentially identifying information - you can easily determine what countries they live in as there are only a few where being Christian is highly problematic.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It isn't an area that I watch closely but with the exception of expanding the Syriac, Latin, Coptic, Gothic, Sogdian, Church Fathers … materials is there enough new material every two years to build useful original language packages
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The one who wouldn't be contacted could have a turn off switch. I still stay by my statement. I for me, I don't want to share my email here. But the users could contact me if Logos would allow.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Through Faithlife, they can.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Which confirms my statement about the controlling.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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What would I like to see?
I would like to see a new, original language library/basepackage line that excludes theological works, and theological commentaries. But, something that includes Oringal language texts, Masorah, morphological databases, syntatical databases, lexicon/dictionaries, apparatuses, grammars/syntax, exegetical commentaries, commetaries for translators: Maybe something like this:
- OL Starter
- OL Bronze
- OL Silver
- OL Gold
- OL Platinum
- OL Diamond
- OL Portfolio
- OL Collector’s Edition
Or it could even be spreated into a Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic tracks or lines.
I believe the type of package Logos used to provide with the Original Language Library was excellent (although it was limited to one level). It was a well-curated package that was highly focused, ensuring that users didn’t need to purchase a top-tier package to obtain a decent one with original language texts and tools.
In the past, whenever someone asked me which library they should get, I thoroughly enjoyed being able to recommend tightly curated packages like the SESB 3 and the Logos OL package. However, it’s challenging to find a decent base package/library that focuses on original languages and exegesis at logos.com. It’s puzzling that Logos offers more resources than enough to create multiple levels of original libraries/base packages, yet they don’t have one when smaller companies with far less resources do.
Grace and Peace,
Brian
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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A lot of this is covered in the Academic packages though it doesn’t exactly have a specifically original language focus. I enjoy the Academic packages as they’re fairly well rounded. It would be nice to see a Greek package or a Hebrew specific package similar to how some of the competitors have.
What resources would you like to see in these packages that aren’t contained in the Academic packages?
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@BKMitchell wrote:
It’s puzzling that Logos offers more resources than enough to create multiple levels of original libraries/base packages, yet they don’t have one when smaller companies with far less resources do.
I am puzzled too, and therefore I have wondered from time to time who are the original language voices in the team these days that push on the development map with this focus, and of course this would be pertinent to configuring OL packages as well.
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You mentioned it before (I believe in this thread) and it did cause me to wonder with Heiser going home, and Rick Brannan no longer being on staff, who are the OL voices within FL?
Does FL list their current staff anywhere? I know they list the leadership staff but I don’t recall seeing any page where they list all employees or contractors?
It seems inconsequential, but it would be nice to know who at FL is working on OL resources and datasets, or if there is any plans for development in those areas. I subscribe to Max, and if there’s no OL work being done, I don’t see the sense is being on Max rather than Pro for the time being.
Maybe someone from Logos can chime in and let us know if there is any OL work on the roadmap, without having to be specific or spoil anything.1 -
And for what it's worth, OL feature enhancements and additions that do not require web access or AI, ie: ones that will be included in Fallback license in 2 years.
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