License Agreement
Comments
-
RQuanstrom said:
This is a copy of the
current license that is displayed in our software.The short version is
this: "The license goes with the user. Every user must
purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and
they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your
personal use - because the license goes
with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two
people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user
license.All licenses are single
human being licenses. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op
licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses. A church or
company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant,
but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.I'm confused, this license
agreement allows:...two separate personal computers
as long as only one is used at a time.And am I reading this right?
One person, only the licensed
person may use the software. Any other person, including a spouse, children, fellow
pastors, curious friends who wish to use the software in the absence of the
licensee would do so illegally.Rob
Rob, you'll note that when the EULA discusses single person use, it does so in the context of "site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses." I don't believe that Logos was thinking particularly of a home setting here, it seems to be contemplating a place where multiple people go to to study and/or work.It prohibits a library (even a church library) from having one instance of the software and let anyone use it. That would violate the EULA -- even if only one person used it at a time. It would also violate the EULA to step out of your office
every Thursday from 10 to 1, so your Youth Pastor could get his lesson
ready. He would need to buy his own copy.By the letter of the law, here, you're right: only you may use the software -- not even your spouse or children. But I don't think the spirit of the law is quite so strict. I don't think Logos would have a problem with immediate family members making occasional use of Libronix, or in allowing a fellow pastor or a curious friend to 'demo' your copy (note the 30 day provision in General Provisions #4). But the EULA certainly does not grant them the right to use it.
Further, if one would argue that 'personal use' includes 'immediate family members living in the home,' when it comes to allowing them to use the software, the license grant allows only one instance of Libronix to be running at any one time. Technically, you couldn't have it open on your desktop, the same time your wife was doing her devotions (even if you were away from your desk).
It would be helpful if Logos would clarify this point in their EULA.
(My thoughts above, should not be construed as rendering an opinion as to the law.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
Arrgghhh! I hate this topic. :-)
We have lots of heated discussions about this internally. Every other week we get the desperate-to-be-legal-and-ethical user who calls to confirm that they can install the software on their desktop and notebook computer. The other weeks we hear about the every-loophole-finding user who wants to parse our latest statement on the EULA to let them install the software on every machine they see, and to charge people for the service.
I am not going to answer all your questions. Ever. I don't want to. I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.
So what follow is still not "the final answer." It's a guide, similar to what I tell our CS people. (Who all wish I wouldn't give them discretion, but would instead make an easy-to-refer-to policy. :-) )
We license the software to one user.
If you are one user with 10 computers, because you run a Mac, Windows, notebook, netbook, desktop, church, home, and three flavors of Linux, I don't care. You're just one user, albeit with too many computers.
(People call up and say "how many computers can I put it on?" We don't care, if they're all YOUR computers. When we say "3", as we used to, for convenience, we'd get people who called with lengthy and unnecessary explanations for why they owned four computers. We'd also get people who would install it on the Pastor, Youth Pastor, and Sunday School Teacher's computers. And we'd say that was wrong, and they'd say "You said three computers for one owner, and the church is the owner, so it's legal to put it on three computers used by people who work at the church." I say, that's abusing the license.)
What about my spouse? What about my child?
Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user." Same thing when little Joey uses the family computer.
But if we extend the license to "officially" allow family use, we get (actual) scenarios like: Joe and Mary are both ordained ministers who attend and preach at different churches on Sunday morning. Each has an office, their own computer, their own salary and budget, and even their own church secretary. This, to me, doesn't feel like "one user". This feels like two users.
We also get Pastor Joe who has a 22 year old son Joe, Jr. in seminary, or a 35 year old son who is a pastor across the country. We've had people tell us they don't need multiple licenses, because they're family members. But Pastor Joe and grown-up Joe, Jr. seem like two users to me.
What if the user is a church, not a person?
It's great if the church wants to buy the software so the pastor doesn't have to buy it with their own funds. But that doesn't mean everyone who works at or attends the church is a legal user of the software (as some have tried to argue). It's still for "one person user"; thay can be Pastor Joe, and if Pastor Joe leaves, you can have him uninstall it and let new Pastor Mark use it instead. But we don't do site or organization licenses -- we license to a (human) user, even if an institution is the purchaser.
In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."
I hope this helps. For the record, this email is not a replacement of the EULA or a new policy. It's just how I think about it, and how I encourage our staff to think about it.
-- Bob
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user."
Thanks Bob for the clarification, i liar not that is me above in your quote. I did not find anything disagreeable in your explanation.
Kind Regards
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
<!--
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->I’m still chuckling after reading Matthew Jones post
regarding reading the EULA literally vs. understanding it’s dynamic equivalence.
Once again Libronix has proved it’s worth to me.
I'm extremely pleased that someone from Libronix posted on
this thread (I knew it was a hot one).I’m really honored that Bob Pritchett answered. Thank you!
I will encourage my wife and kids to use the program as they
please, recognizing that as they grow and develop they will purchase their own
libraries.0 -
Thank you Mr Bob for your clarification.
Your answer addressed every concern raised in this post. I never imagined all those scenarios.
I think Logos has been very fair. I can't wait for the day when all I have to do to use Logos on a brand new computer is to log in and use it! I don't know how you'll keep up with everyone's different libraries. I will just quietly go back to my happy home-use of the software and read the EULA every now and again to keep up with any future developements. Thanks again!Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Hey Everybody, other than Mr Bob,
Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now. [:-*]
If a kid pokes a bear with a stick too many times, the bear will make the kid wish he hadn't.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."
Hello Bob,
Thanks for your explaination/ clarification on the EULA. I was going to write to you outside of the forum but was advise to do so by your staff.
Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
Does this mean that one's resources will be locked in one's computer drive and one will have to visit the logos web to gain access to these resources? I am not sure what you mean. Thanks in advance for your response
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now.
Should those also be things he hates to discuss? [6] [6] [6]
BTW: The bear went over the mountain.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:Matthew C Jones said:
Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now.
Should those also be things he hates to discuss?
BTW: The bear went over the mountain.
There are a few posters who keep telling the rest of us precisely that fact! ...[li]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.
Bob is right. Those who want to get around the rules will find a way.
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I am not going to answer all your questions. Ever. I don't want to. I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.
Thanks Bob. This does help us users, who are trying to be honest and have integrity about our agreement with you, know where you're coming from as a company.
It amazes me how many pastors and churches ignore EULA's and use software they have no legal right to use. I had to stop a well-meaning church member from installing MS Office Home and Student edition from our church computer, since the MS EULA for the Home and Student edition explicitly excludes non-profits from doing so (he traded it at the store for MS Office Standard edition). The vast majority don't ever read EULA's and many who do, simply don't think the restrictions apply to churches or pastors. Baffling.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
Ted Hans said:
Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
-- Bob
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
Thanks for the info & every regards
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Ted Hans said:Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
-- Bob
I hope there will always be an offline usability of Logos. There are still missionaries and preachers with little or no internet access. That reminds me of the old days when we mailed in floppy disks for registration. [E]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:Ted Hans said:
Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
-- Bob
Please continue to make Logos available for use and not be connected to the Internet. This was a major
reason why I went with Logos and actually a "non-negotiable" on my list
of requirements when I was researching different Bible software
programs.I take my laptop with me whenever I travel and like the freedom to be able to use Logos without using the Internet.
Ron
0 -
The leading sellers in the category of "Computers and Accessories" at Amazon are netbooks. They are sold without DVD drives. The DVD will likely join the ranks of the floppy drive in a few short years. Software sellers in the very near future will need other means of delivering software. Future options, besides downloading, are likely to include flash memory, USB pin drives, etc.
RonaldQuick said:Bob Pritchett said:Ted Hans said:Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
-- Bob
Please continue to make Logos available for use and not be connected to the Internet. This was a major
reason why I went with Logos and actually a "non-negotiable" on my list
of requirements when I was researching different Bible software
programs.0 -
Hi Bob, It's been a year-and-a-half and this topic still lives on. The EULA serves one main purpose, to protect the property and intellectual rights of the product developer/producer. Like every other company, the goal for LOGOS is that if any money is to be made on the product, LOGOS makes it...and that no money is lost due to someone using the product in a way unintended--All Rights Are Reserved...for the benefit of LOGOS. The problem as it now stands in the Land-of-Vagueness is that the current policy's lack of clarity actually costs LOGOS money. My wife said if she had read the forum before I pressed the BUY button she would not have agreed with my making the purchase--and if I had read the forum first, I wouldn't have bothered either. I wonder how many people like myself browsed a little more and went somewhere else--perhaps hundreds. If cheaters are going to cheat, and honest people are going to honestly admit they want the LE package but can't afford $8200 for two copies no matter how much LOGOS says it's a great deal, then make the fuzzy language easier to live with by using the term "reasonable use" and let the user define what "reasonable use" is. One couple sharing one account to sit side by side on individual computers for a morning devotion should not be construed in any way as costing LOGOS a potential sale---being able to do just that would be, however, a great promotional campaign for LOGOS and help to create potentially gigantic gains in sales. As a new user in this tough economy, I want LOGOS to be around for the next 30 years. Your company's success may require the legalists to think outside of the box and make the tool the "family-friendly" and "family-affordable" product it could be. Either way, it is the role of any CEO to lead their company into the future for greater prosperity---please do!
Before I learned of all this mess, I signed my wife and myself up for the seminar in Bellingham in 2011. Now I wish I hadn't. My wife and I want to bring our two MACs with us and sit side by side just like we do every morning, but I can't afford another $4200 to solve the conflict LOGOS puts on households. I wish I could just get a refund of my Christmas gift of 2010 and order a few books through Barnes and Noble. The $4200 in hardcover would look great in my study. We have been using LOGOS for one week. Next week when I am back from dealing with the death of a family member, I will call support to ask for a refund. It's too bad, because the product has great potential. But like you, I'm not interested in being part of an eternal discussion on this matter that just won't go away.
--Oran
0 -
Okay, my wife and I looked at the quality of the product, the amount we already spent (I had bought the biggest and best, which says I always try to do--and she it right) and we decided to call Sales Support. I spoke with Jim Ray Higginson (nice and helpful guy). I downgraded to the Scholar's package and ordered a second Scholar's package for my wife. In the end, I spent less than I originally had spent, but we both get to go to the training session in Bellingham this summer without any concern about EULAs. Eventually we will probably spend more (my wife's tastes in references differs slightly from mine), but we will avoid overlapping whenever possible, since we study side by side.
It's a lot of hoop jumping to get there, and I know that most cannot afford two copies for one household, but then again, we get the benefit of not tripping over each other's notes. Keeping it simple is the best route.
We look forward to visiting Logos in Bellingham and hope the team up there has a great New Year.
O
0 -
Oran Denton said:
It's a lot of hoop jumping to get there, and I know that most cannot afford two copies for one household, but then again, we get the benefit of not tripping over each other's notes. Keeping it simple is the best route.
We look forward to visiting Logos in Bellingham and hope the team up there has a great New Year.
My wife has the Bible Study package and we are both happy not to trip over each other too. We frequently sit side-by-side (right now, in fact.) Her Bible reference needs are a lot less demanding than my wants so there is a disparity in our libraries. But I share interesting finds throughout the day with her.
Are you planning on going to National Camp Logos? I am dreaming of it. I have get to make an anniversary trip to Ireland first. [:D]
fwiw: The way I understand Bob Pritchett's application of the EULA, my wife and I could share one license. But we would also share one set of notes, etc. She deserves her own Logos.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Hi Matthew,
Yes, we will be at the National Camp Logos in June. We live in the eastside of the state, but we have relatives in Bellingham to visit while we are there. My wife went to Northern Ireland in 2005. We married in 2006 (my first wife of 28 years died of leukemia), and I've never been to Ireland...but I have a passport!
I agree with you about Bob's application, but our wives should have the freedom of enjoying the software without our false accusations of someone messing with our notes...we all deserve the peace.
After Camp Logos, the world!
0 -
Dear Oran Denton;
On page two of this thread is a comment by Bob Pritchett Dated: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:14 PM
And starting ””Arrgghhh! I hate this topic. :-)””
[[http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265]]
After reading that and the EULA please post your suggested wording of a better one ((EULA))
Worded so that a Husband and Wife who are not both Pastors [each with their own church [and pulpit]] and whose children [not yet having finished High School (year 12)] maybe studying Bible studies but are not writing them for any organization what so ever can all use one and the same Portfolio edition. [with one license] But where the family where Dad is the Pastor, Mom writes the Bible Studies and child does the sermons every third week will require three license and all at the max level.
$4,000 and the wife cannot even use the read the Bible in a Year plan does not make sense when no one in the family is doing research for other then family use (no sermons [well maybe one every two years when the pastor and the head elder are both sick], not writing Bible studies, and yes, sometimes sharing what they found with friends) Logos is not trying to stop that – they are trying to stop the full school or church using one copy
The EULA has to be written tight and enforced loosely. [but if you get too loose the courts rule that you did not protect your product and you lose it]
We have not been smart enough to figure it out! [And Logos only starts to be fun when you reach the $4K level (per license)] <<Welcom to Logos>>
0 -
Hi David,
In the multiplication of words is much trouble (from somewhere in Proverbs), and I all too often use too many words. I once had 8000 books in my personal library and after grad school I faced moving the entire collection back across the country. I spent months picking out my favorites and worked the total down to 1800. It is much easier to pack my Mac and go!
I'm sure God knows the reason that I am not the lawyer in the family. Concerning the EULA, I defer to those whose job it is to serve the Lord with their whole hearts at Logos. I doubt that they do much of anything without prayerful consideration. I send my apologies to those who felt a greater burden fulfilling their daily tasks because of any frustration I failed to pray about first.
And to those persons who use the software in ways that rob Logos of their rightful provision (and I doubt they spend time reading Logos forums); it is God who builds us up in the knowledge of His Son, and I doubt He would use pirated software to do so.
It's nice to be part of the greater Logos community. Have a great week!
0 -
Pro 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
Pro 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
""And to those persons who use the software in ways that rob Logos of their rightful provision"" We have no way of stoping them so we just ask for God to bless them.
0 -
Bob,
just want to thank you for your gracious and spirit-filled response. Many blessings to you and the company.
I am in the process of deciding which package to buy, but am waiting on academic pricing - I have just started theological study
regards,
Chris Rees (UK)
0 -
Bob and the rest at Logos,
First I am very grateful for this software and the new EULA which allows me to put it on my desktop and laptop, and Android phone! I think this Bible software is leaps ahead of others. My dad got me a copy of Logos and it has really helped in ministry.
My wife and I are both Bible translators in East Africa and work with different languages here so we are plainly two users. I can't dispute that. We are also poor so buying Logos twice is not an option. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. I can't get over buying resources twice. If my wife and I buy a physical book then it's in "our" library and not "my" library. If we need a digital resource, we both have Kindles on one Amazon account (which to my understanding is allowed). Although I understand why logos is doing licensing this way (for notes, reading plans, etc.), I will continue to buy paper books and/or kindle books so that they can be used in my household. I will hesitate to buy resources in Logos unless I'm sure my wife wouldn't also find it useful and since we are in the same ministry that's probably not gonna happen.
Maybe Amazon is really on to a good thing in that each account is tied to a payment method (which is the case for Logos too). I definitely wouldn't give out my Logos username and password because I don't want to give away the ability for someone to use my credit card even if it adds to my own library. This fact would even make me hesitant to share it with my kids (although I don't have any yet), but not with my wife. This wouldn't solve the problem of notes or reading plans and I'm not sure how this theory could solve that.
Thanks for the flexibility that currently exists and being so open with all of us who are asking. Of course I want to obey the spirit of Bob's explanation and the EULA so Logos won't be installed on my wife's laptop. I hope this doesn't seem critical either. I am writing because I would prefer to buy resources from Logos before Amazon or even paper books, but not being able to share with my wife keeps me from doing that. Thanks again.
Blessings,
Michael0 -
I like Logos. I bought many resources. I use it.
0 -
I agree, our wives should be free to create and save their own notes. I'm sorry I didn't see your posting sooner. We went to Camp Logos in Bellingham for #1 and then recently bought the CDs for #2. It was great being at Camp 1 with my Mrs. We both got to focus on the same thing for a couple of days, and then we went home to work on setting up our Libraries, Collections and so on. It sure makes Bible study time at home a pleasure. My wife took a youth group to Ireland in 2006, but I've never traveled out of the country. She would like to go back, and then she could be my tour guide. I hope you make it. Blessings!
0 -
I know the post I am responding to was written a long time ago but for those reading it in the now, like I am, I wanted to offer a potentially helpful response. I don't believe any part of Scripture teaches us to "share all of our Earthly possessions with our wives" so if we make a vow before God to do that we may be committing to something we can't live up to. Try, for example, sharing your driver's license or your professional license (such as license to practice medicine) with your wife and see how quickly you end up heavily fined and possibly going to prison. Just saying.
0 -
Jeff Hetrick said:
I know the post I am responding to was written a long time ago but for those reading it in the now, like I am, I wanted to offer a potentially helpful response.
Thanks for weighing in. I don't know if you read this other thread but it pretty much covered a lot of ideas:
Suggestion:Allowing husband and wives to share one Logos 4 license
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
If I desired to purchase an additional license of my library for my pastor, is that possible? How much does it cost if it is possible?
0
