Logos only lets your transfer book Licenses once???
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So, have we received any updates on this situation?
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Andy Tucker said:
So, have we received any updates on this situation?
Nothing new. Just what Bob Pritchett has said in this thread.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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My first participation in a forum (I think). Anyway, I can't believe what I am reading. Are you serious? People have been "buying" LOGOS books and then re-selling them after they realize they are not what they want, or have gotten their use from them? I AM REPULSED! That is like test-driving a new car, signing the papers to buy it, take it on a cross-country joy-ride, and then returning it to the dealer and cancelling the loan at the bank. WOW! I had no idea Logos was allowing this behavior, it is business suicide! And, on a selfish note, it by necessity drives up my cost for logos products by diluting its sales.
My only concern was that my Logos platform and materials be allowed to be "willed" to a family member after my death. And, now I discover herein that some are "transferring" books (licenses) willy-nilly. Holy-cow! being a good Christian-business does not necessitate forcing customers to pay the operating costs which could (and would) be paid by the non-sales lost to this surprising secondary market. Though not all, many of the secondary purchasers will purchase from Logos (allowing lower costs for all) if and when this apparent scavenging (i.e. profiteering) has some reasonable control. And, even if the product is re-sold at a lower price it cannot be demonstrated that this secondary purchaser will never buy that product from Logos, thus logos expenses increase.
It reminds me of a former tenant to whom a landlord friend I know had given a $300/month discount for six years (a gift of $21,600), and then after six years the landlord needed to end the six-year negative cash-flow and raised the rent by $125/month (still way below market), and he (landlord) was considered insensitive and cruel. The tenant left in a huff, my friend raised the rent to market and acquired tenants appreciative of the property and a good landlord. It is the "skin-in-the-game" concept. Those who receive something below its value often have less gratitude than do those who pay market-price. It reminds me of Bonhoeffer's concern over "cheap grace."
Anyway, Bob, please, please, pray about difficult decisions, of course. But, maintaining a primary focus on that small percentage of customers who are actually paying the bills will likely give guidance - and will certainly increase business. I understand the business maneuver of free access to certain services as a marketing strategy to demonstrate a valuable product to many who would not otherwise be exposed to the platform. Nevertheless, it can go too far. Actually allowing these non-paying users to free and unlimited access to phone support cheapens the product in these new-users' minds. Some limits would be wise, I believe. Users cannot value your product more highly than you do.
Just a few comments from a former Christian business person who was taken advantage of FAR more often by professing (poor) Christians than by the general-public. The most gracious and thankful customers I had were those who respected my value as their chosen business-provider. Not always, but most often I lost my customers' respect when I provided discounts beyond reasonable amounts (i.e. unlimited secondary distribution and access to support by non-paying customers). I thought I was giving a gift worthy of gratitude. The recipients (unconsciously, of course) lost respect for my skills believing I did not value my skills myself.
God Bless, I will pray for increased business and economic success of "Logos," confident that increased success will translate to greater access to awesome products. And, I am confident that reasonable control of product transfer will actually increase respect for the product and platform. And, on the personal issue which brought me to this forum - I trust that the extensive platform and materials which I have purchased will be transferable to my children when I pass on (as the original sales-person had indicated several years ago), but I expect no liberty passing around my purchased products to multiple recipients - that is understandably business suicide. God bless, Ron Biegler
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Welcome to the forums, Ron.
Death is certainly one time in life you want your Logos resources to pass on. However, I can think of other very extenuating circumstances. Speaking for myself, I think that one transfer only, as a policy, is too restrictive.
If Logos were to make it big in Europe, this restriction may not even survive (pardon the pun).
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Ron Biegler said:
My first participation in a forum (I think). Anyway, I can't believe what I am reading. Are you serious? People have been "buying" LOGOS books and then re-selling them after they realize they are not what they want, or have gotten their use from them? I AM REPULSED! That is like test-driving a new car, signing the papers to buy it, take it on a cross-country joy-ride, and then returning it to the dealer and cancelling the loan at the bank. WOW! I had no idea Logos was allowing this behavior, it is business suicide! And, on a selfish note, it by necessity drives up my cost for logos products by diluting its sales.
Does the used car market repulse you? Those who sell Logos resources second-hand frequently do so at less than 50% of the Logos sale prices. Taken to its final conclusion, you should not will your Logos library to anyone as it will dilute Logos sales by one.
Welcome to the forums.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I'm not sure the 'used car' example is really appropriate.
We bought our Rolls, and quite frankly became distressed when the new Shadow became available (or was it the Ghost, I forget). We thought .... maybe we could sell our Rolls quietly (to avoid embarrassment), and then purchase the Shadow. We felt so dirty ... almost like 'cheap grace' (whatever that is; didn't know it had a price but ok). We thought of the workers at the Rolls factory. The Phoenix distributor who would likely go out of business if people sold their Rolls. And worst of worst, the Rolls company owners.
Later it really hit me, when I was shopping the used book store, and saw (literally!) people bringing in used books to 're-sell' them!! Have they no gratitude?? How would publishers stay in business if people shop used book stores?? it boggles the mind.
I sure hope Bob doesn't allow all those pastors to re-sell their books unless they promise to die first. But only if they didn't buy them at a discount in college.
Ok. So I couldn't resist.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Well Super Tramp comparing cars to logos is not an apples to apples comparison. That's like saying I have an old car with 80,000 miles on it but it is still brand new, no wear on any part and has that new car smell still, but let us not forget your old car is brand new because the software is free (lets say you bought something when it was in logos 3 and now selling it in logos 5). I wonder if you have in the last 4 or 5 years tried to sell some reference books hoping to get half of what you paid. All I'm saying is owning logos is not like owning a sack of marbles that you can sell, swap or buy anytime you want. And Ron brings up a great point that the man power that goes into doing the transfer I hardly think that the twenty dollars covers it, so we are all paying for part of that transfer. But let us not forget logos will do a transfer at time of death for free and I would imagine if you fell on hard times they would bend over backwards to try to help you any way they can. And I just want to say THANKS to logos for always having someone from the USA answering the phones, that is becoming harder and harder to find.
In His Name
Matt
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
All I'm saying is owning logos is not like owning a sack of marbles that you can sell, swap or buy anytime you want.
1. That's not what SuperTramp is saying either.
2. But since you bring up that point, let's take a step back... Why shouldn't users be permitted to deal with their resources like a sack of marbles? Is there anything in the large print saying this? Or the fine print? How many users here have actually dealt with their Logos like a sack of marbles? If we determine that we shouldn't allow users to deal with Logos resources like a sack of marbles, how should Logos actually discourage or prohibit this sort of behavior? By the spirit? Or by the letter? And how should users' rights and "legitimate expectations" be protected? By the spirit? Or by the letter?
3. We can take this philosophical investigation even further. Supposing Logos puts up a notice like this in a prominent location on their website, how will it affect sales? ---
- Logos wants to give you resources you are proud to call your own. Logos will allow you to pass on your resources to your heirs in the event of your passing. Unlike unwieldy books, your digital resource can be quickly transferred upon payment of a small administrative fee (restricted to one transfer only).
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Yes that's fine Lee but I want logos to charge a high enough fee to actually cover labor and overhead that goes with it!! I don't want to help pay for fees for people to swap, sell, and buy resources all the time. You seem to have missed that point, because when you have marbles and you want to sell one nobody has to hold your hand when doing it.
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
You seem to have missed that point, because when you have marbles and you want to sell one nobody has to hold your hand when doing it.
Please read my posts carefully again. Tell me what I missed?
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I certainly can't speak for ST. And quite frankly I don't have a dog in this issue anymore. First, I don't have a large family of believers as ST does. I've no need to sell for money, to buy other Logos volumes. And the people I know don't use Logos; too expensive and hard to use.
Plus as an example, I'm a big believer in suggesting several books in the Bible are not inspired, and watching the pastor's face. Once you have your answer, you have your answer. 'Inspired' is not the question. The pastor's face is.
And so also this thread. Most people would come unglued if they were prohibited from selling their house, car, out-of-style fashions (true; check the apps), and so forth. But oddly, Logos people will stomp all over other Logos people for even hinting that a resell (with resell rights) should be the norm. It might hurt Logos!
And I REALLY wonder about the academic restriction. Lifetime?? For folks that are going to suffer quite a bit for the Lord. I'd have thought the Logosians would have really drawn a line in the sand on that one. Not so. Just the opposite. Logosians view the businessman is far more important. Pastors that work for the Kingdom do nothing for reducing Logosian's resource prices. Hello.
It's interesting, sure enough. And yes, our pastor smiles at my statement concerning 'inspired'. He knows me.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
And I REALLY wonder about the academic restriction. Lifetime?? For folks that are going to suffer quite a bit for the Lord. I'd have thought the Logosians would have really drawn a line in the sand on that one. Not so. Just the opposite. Logosians view the businessman is far more important. Pastors that work for the Kingdom do nothing for reducing Logosian's resource prices. Hello.
I'm with you on this. I heard that there were academic licence holders who severely abused the intent of the academic discount program, so Logos had no choice but to impose a restriction. Now, as ST has pointed out many posts ago, buying at non-academic price is not much different. That's why Logos should re-think their policies from the ground up. What abuse are they trying to stop, and why, how should they minimize knock-on effects, etc. A couple of the measures suggested in this thread are worth considering.
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Ok Lee I give it a go one last time. But first I think you should go back read my posts I believe they are self-explanatory. Also I do agree with you that logos should go back re-think their prices on the transfers, so the whole burden of the transfer falls on the people selling their books. I remember one guy "pastor" on the facebook page they have to resell logos was trying to sell off a bunch of books he received for free from vyrso, and he admitted it when I questioned him on it. So where does logos get back their losses on that. All I can say as a 8 year user of logos just charge a transfer fee that covers the complete cost of the transfer so I'm not paying for part of it, I firmly believe that if Bob did that it would solve the problem. Then transfer all you want. And do remember the sales people work on commission.
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Well, Mathew, Logos is in uncharted territory. This is a morass of internet and software law, copyright issues, economic forces, and ethico-religious factors. The best way out will require on clear-headed thinking and looking at extensive scenario planning. It is not all cut and dried. Appeals to emotion, citing extreme examples on one side or another, and "real-world" analogies should not rule the day.
For example, to curb the abuse that you mentioned, why couldn't Logos tag their free offerings with a "no transfer" flag? Other solutions are possible too. Logos could take a more fine-grained approach.
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I can. [:)]Denise said:I certainly can't speak for ST.
Mathew Haferkamp said:so the whole burden of the transfer falls on the people selling their books.
I agree with that. BUT, I take great issue with the amount f time Logos claims it takes to transfer one license. It took Logos about one hour to transfer the license when I sold my SDA Commentary. Maybe I get better service than the rest of you but I know it can be done because it was done for me.
As far as the academic purchases go, I think Logos should treat them differently than retail purchases. If Logos limits retail license transfers to one time, they should limit academic license transfers to ZERO. Otherwise, why should anyone buy at retail? When I qualified for academic pricing I purposely avoided buying resources because they were not transferable.
Logos is penalizing the good behaviour of regular customers because a small minority of users are abusive. That is like grounding all of my children from a field trip because one was naughty.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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If a stranger off the street asked me that my eyes might grow large, and then I would suggest getting together to talk more about that (with my secretary if a female asked, without otherwise) in the coming week.Denise said:It's interesting, sure enough. And yes, our pastor smiles at my statement concerning 'inspired'. He knows me.
*chuckle* I don't think I've ever had someone come up to me and say that in church.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Super.Tramp said:
I agree with that. BUT, I take great issue with the amount of time Logos claims it takes to transfer one license. It took Logos about one hour to transfer the license when I sold my SDA Commentary. Maybe I get better service than the rest of you but I know it can be done because it was done for me.
Comment: The SDA Commentary is a stand alone package. None of its parts, as far as I can see, are part of some other item.
Many have stated that they have four [or more] licences to the NIV84. But do they? If they received a discount on item B because they owned item A and both had the NIV84 included. Maybe they only have one licence to the NIV84 - the one that came with item A. If they want to transfer item B does the NIV84 stay with item A or leave with item B? Things like that may be what takes time.
The transfer of our entire library or a stand along package is easy. It is dynamic pricing and other discounts that confuse transfers.
[[But we are very thankful for those discounts when we are / were building our library. Got some of the packages for less then the cost of a set that was within them. Also one set that I bought only gained me one volume because of other items that I owned [that is I already owned all of the rest and the dynamic price was set accordingly] - how would that get transferred?]]
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KISS
the whole morass of multiple licensing, "dynamic pricing" and taking 5 hours to do a license transfer is, quite honestly, LOGOS' problem. Correct me, if I am wrong, but bundles is Logos' preferred sales method and business plan. Things would look a lot different, if they sold their resources one at a time (I for one would not have to hide 4000+ resources I have absolutely no use for). Having said that, we, who buy bundles from Logos, are enablers! Let us not forget that Logos is a business and they produce resources and deliver services that people desire and pay premium prices for.
This whole mess boils down to 2 issues: abuse and expense of transferring licenses. I believe, both can be significantly reduced if Logos is technologically able to transfer licenses automatically. Imagine it created a framework similar to eBay (Logos hinted of a store functionality for PBs a while back) where users could connect with one another and transfer purchases. A transfer fee does not have to be one size fits all. If it is a complex transfer, let sellers carry the burden of that. I, for one, would be willing to pay a little extra if it meant that resources I sold could be re-sold again. This adds value to everyone involved.
I think this is not the matter of whether Logos can do it, but is it worth it to them? Bob said it many times that he makes decisions primarily with the business in mind. He will resist change (on this issue) as long as he profitably can.
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I know of a way to transfer entire library about three times. It requires some extra work and expedinture but is certainly possible. Some of You have probably figured it out. There's no PM system on Logos's site but You reach me by PM on christianforums.com, accordance and unorthodoxchristian freeforums. I'm looking for those who would want to research together with me, who are below 30, and who can keep in touch with a desk phone or who live in Sweden.
Disclosure!
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48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
As an academic user, I'm really saddened with this news.
Just because someone is an academic user, it does not mean that person always gets an academic discount on every resources.
So if an academic user bought something with full price, he/she cannot resell the resource anymore because he/she purchased that resource while he/she under academic program? This is dumb.
I think instead of worrying about reselling issues, Logos need to focus on improving the quality of its product and not these kinds of stuffs. You make more money and profit by proving to the market that you're product is the best product NOT thinking of resell value.
Look at Apple for an example. Do they worry about their resell value? Not really!
They focus more on improving the quality and innovation, then the resell value will better itself.
Don't penalize the consumers, penalize your own workers for not being the best innovativator in the market.
Don't make academic users afraid to purchase resources, encourage us.
Don't penalize academic user by not giving us dynamic price on top of the academic discount; give students bigger discount, students loves books.
I hope the company gets this.
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mike said:
So if an academic user bought something with full price, he/she cannot resell the resource anymore because he/she purchased that resource while he/she under academic program? This is dumb.
I do not believe you are correct with this assumption. What you buy at full price you are able to transfer freely.
It might also be possible to transfer academic titles to another academic user (proof of eligibility might be necessary). At least, I would have done it this way, if I was Logos.
Again, Logos is the one that created a web of different classes of resources. Oh, what a tangled web we weave... [;)]
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Mike ... let's not go off the deep end. It's only your academic books that you need to make room for in your casket (and which do not participate in the resurrection, or at least an argument from silence may not be a strong one).
But comparing to Apple (or Amazon for that matter) is a good one. I'd sort of had in the back of my mind buying Logos books with the ability to pass them on to someone else that's curious (without me being in my casket).
But given an equation of 'not', then the purchasing of Logos books is similar to my Kindle books ... read and trash. Which of course strongly favors Kindle prices. I'm not a Logos 'searcher'; I typically read my books (revolutionary idea, admitedly).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I mostly datamine if I'm honest. But those books I've bought for class I've read. Personal books I tend to read. professors notes on a subject I save by class name as personal books as well.
My own notes from class become personal books also at some point.
I think it depends on whether I'm preparing a sermon (tendency towards mining) or for my own edification (then I read in full). For papers, I also tend to mine - but I do that with paper books also... Sometimes there is no need to read an entire book when only a chapter is relevant to the topic or passage at hand.
I have seen Logos transfer academic licenses; I have received the benefit of those transfers.
If I could sum up this whole thread succinctly, I'd say that there are two groups of people. Those who see a logos "rule" as black and white, and those (Bob included) who see them as a grey area. Every now and then (he seems to say) an employee gets confused about the rules being grey, not black and white, and things like this thread happen. Someone denied when they didn't have to be. To honor rules not applied all the time to every situation.
Those of us with 5 figures invest (I'm almost there my self now...) can be made nervous about the grey nature of the rules. What if Bob doesn't run Logos (faithlife, or whatever they become), what if, what if, what if. Mt 6:34 comes to mind (NIV) "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Today we know that Logos is the best. We know what they promise today. We know Bob puts his customers over the business. I've been the recipient of this on two or three occasions - many others as well. Remember the 40,000$ mistake? I didn't benefit from that, but many did. Did they strip away the resources they didn't intend to be free? nope. Most recently they had a bug that gave away Pentecostal silver free. Did they take that back? Nope. Those that got the base package were allowed to keep it. These mistakes are far more costly than a 20$/hr employee taking 3-5 hrs to transfer licenses to a new user.
In the end, I think this thread is just causing more anxiety over time than is possibly warranted.
Kudos to Bob for keeping things flexible despite having policies in place.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Actually we're just curous about what Bob found out (in his company). The chit-chat is just to move the thread up.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Ames said:
Many have stated that they have four [or more] licences to the NIV84. But do they? If they received a discount on item B because they owned item A and both had the NIV84 included. Maybe they only have one licence to the NIV84 - the one that came with item A. If they want to transfer item B does the NIV84 stay with item A or leave with item B? Things like that may be what takes time.
The transfer of our entire library or a stand along package is easy. It is dynamic pricing and other discounts that confuse transfers.
I stated this based on the number of CDROMs I had purchased that included a copy of the NIV Bible with it. When I had purchased CDROMS it was almost always not from Logos (finding much better prices elsewhere) so technically they could have offered me no discount. I am well aware that the entire content of the collection would need to go and not simply the NIV license. I had suggested to one they could buy my concordia selfstudy library (3 volume collection, NIV text, Concordia self study Bible/ Commentary) if they simple replaced the 2 self study volumes and paid the transfer fee. Nothing ever came of it so I am guessing he found the 1984 NIV elsewhere or something else.
-Dan
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I just want to say I believe and trust you, Bob, and the folks at Logos. Keep up the good work!
I use Logos several times a day, at least. It's a great resource. I am a little embarrassed to say I probably cost Logos some money through frequent customer service requests. Really sorry about that. I'll try to reduce my footprint in that area.
Again, thanks!
BTW I really love the Bible Sense Lexicon! Phenomenal!
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Hello, everyone!
I'm sorry for messing with this hornet's nest again lol
I've read almost the entire post, especially the first 6 pages.
I'd like to know if there's anything new or different from what's been discussed here 8 years ago.From everything I read I understood that:
- I can transfer the license to wife or children.
- I can transfer some books by paying a fee of $20.00 or more depending on the situation.
- The same book can only be transferred once between accounts.
- Books bought in bundles can only be transferred in bundles (not individually).
- Books bought with an academic discount cannot be sold/transferred.My question for the more experienced and knowledgeable Forum members is:
- Is there any news about this above that I haven't found on the Forum?
- Can books or packages bought with discounts/promotions on the site be transferred?
- Can my children pass on my full account to my grandchildren and great-grandchildren and so on? Or can I only transfer by will once?
- Can I donate or sell my full Logos account (without keeping a copy) (changing e-mail, password and personal name) to another pastor or seminarian, passing on full ownership to the other person without incurring a breach of contract?____________
"... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)
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I was waiting for someone else who understands this better than I do to respond, but for the most part, I think what is say is correct.
It is that one stinger (only one transfer) that terminated 95% of my book purchases. (Health issues forcing an early retirement gives me a different perspective.) I know I would not buy anything from anybody at my age (and I'm not that old) if I knew I could not transfer them, ever. It's like buying someone's physical library with the condition that you'd have to burn the books when you die.
I really wish they would re-think that policy.
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Lew Worthington said:
I know I would not buy anything from anybody at my age (and I'm not that old) if I knew I could not transfer them, ever. It's like buying someone's physical library with the condition that you'd have to burn the books when you die.
Good point. I view as a write off, maybe in 10 years or so. But the one-transfer and one-refund demand is probably what supports the major discounting contracts, with publishers. Brill as the exception! Maybe Zondervan-ish.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Lew Worthington said:
...I know I would not buy anything from anybody at my age (and I'm not that old) if I knew I could not transfer them, ever. It's like buying someone's physical library with the condition that you'd have to burn the books when you die.
I really wish they would re-think that policy.
I understand their concern about people "flipping" Logos books in a way that would undercut their legitimate business interests. But there should be ways to address that concern without creating a "burn the books when you die" situation. One approach might be to require a minimum period between transfers (e.g., 5 or 10 years). Another would be to create an exception that allows a transfer at death. I have absolutely no desire to buy and sell Logos resources, but I would like to donate my library to a deserving seminary student when I die. My sister is a professor at a christian university, and my plan is for her to find a promising student when the time comes.
Anyway, that's how it would work in my perfect world.
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