Comments
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Your investment in Logos is safe, and you’ll always be able to access your books for free. We’re 100% committed to continuing to provide free software to ensure you’ll always be able to read and interact with your books.
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You won’t lose your existing feature sets when we move to subscription. If you’ve already invested in Logos Feature Sets, you won’t lose them when the next version of Logos launches. You’ll continue to be able to use the features you’ve paid for. And if you ever cancel a subscription, you’ll fall back to the features that you’ve previously purchased.
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We’re not going to stop selling books and libraries. We love selling books as much as you love buying them, and we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling books and curated libraries. Our subscriptions contain a limited number of books to ensure the features work correctly, but they aren’t intended to replace the high-quality curated libraries that we’re continuing to offer.
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No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future. Unlike most software companies, we make our latest software available to everyone. Even if the last feature set you bought was Logos 4 in 2009 (or even Logos 1 in 1991!), you’ll continue to receive free app updates ensuring you can use Logos with future operating systems and books. You’ll even continue to receive bug fixes for free, too. Of course, if you’re not a subscriber, the latest features and upgrades will not be enabled for you, but you’ll be using the same core software as all our other customers.
- The fallback license is a good feature that should be useful to some and reassuring to many.
- The fear that some have had (and may still have) that they'll lose access to what they already own has illustrated some very strange exegesis techniques. Despite my misgivings about the subscription model, I have never feared this.
- The plan as presented now is a bad deal, offering very little to a user like me at a high cost. In the previous upgrade cycles, I've typically paid in the range of $250-500 to get all of the new features plus a decent library package of books I want. With this new arrangement, I'd have to pay $700 to get a perpetual license without a new permanent library; most of the new features are AI, which I'm not interested in at all and would lose anyway if I ever unsubscribed; the temporary license books I don't already own aren't attractive; the other minor perks, while not bad, are minor and not nearly enough to make up for the hike in price. (At $35 a month, I'd be better off spending that on a book of my choice rather than an additional random FBotM.)
Thank you, Bill, for this update and for your team's ongoing efforts to enhance the Logos software. It's commendable that you're actively seeking ways to provide value to your customers while also ensuring the long-term sustainability of the platform.
Your approach of sharing updates and welcoming constructive feedback demonstrates a commitment to transparency and customer engagement, which is greatly appreciated.
Your forward-thinking approach is crucial for keeping Logos at the forefront of Bible study software. We look forward to learning more about how these changes will benefit both new and existing users while ensuring the platform's continued growth and innovation.
Thank you again for keeping the community informed and involved in this process.
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds). And even if we do subscribe for the minimum required period to keep them, after we drop the subscription we can't use any features which use the cloud (which is most of them).
As I suspected when this first dropped, the promise to let us keep our purchases would be a hollow one if they pulled the features which make use of those resources/books.
the perks
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds). And even if we do subscribe for the minimum required period to keep them, after we drop the subscription we can't use any features which use the cloud (which is most of them).
As I suspected when this first dropped, the promise to let us keep our purchases would be a hollow one if they pulled the features which make use of those resources/books.
the perks
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless.
DAL
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless.
DAL
I listened to it at least five times to (hopefully) hear something like that. He didn't say it.
And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless.
DAL
I listened to it at least five times to (hopefully) hear something like that. He didn't say it.
And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Since no one will be forced to subscribe, you can still use Logos 10 full features. Why subscribe to lose something you already own? Maybe he didn’t word it correctly. If it means what you think it means then people won’t subscribe, so it makes no sense.
DAL
And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Just because we don't put a feature in the Legacy Fallback License doesn't mean for a minute that we'll take it away from existing customers.
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds).
Bill and I are saying the same thing. This is what Bill said in the video (starting at 3:00):
For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds).
Bill and I are saying the same thing. This is what Bill said in the video (starting at 3:00):
For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
I knew it! Send me the link to Logos Max early access, so I can subscribe too!
DAL
For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
Ok, this is getting odd. If you don't own L10 (whatever that is ... any L10?), then you're not eligible for the Legacy Fallback (LFB) perk for unowned featues during the subscription? Or the LFB is only for L10 owners ... during launch. Or ...
I think DAL better check the price first.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
If you don't own L10 (whatever that is ... any L10?), then you're not eligible for the Legacy Fallback (LFB) perk for unowned featues during the subscription? Or the LFB is only for L10 owners ... during launch. Or ...
We've not yet announced what perks will be available to those who DON'T own Logos 10. That will come soon.
Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
I listened to it a sixth time, and I still don't hear the boss saying that.
But I'll assume it's true for now since you say that's what he means.
That begs a question: If the cost of getting the new features is a 24-month subscription (say, $10 a month for 24 months...$240), why not make them available for the same price ($240 in this example) as a one-time fee? Then you'd have the same revenue and you wouldn't have alienated a whole busload of your formerly loyal customers by imposing a subscription model on them. [:(]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
If the cost of getting the new features is a 24-month subscription (say, $10 a month for 24 months...$240), why not make them available for the same price ($240 in this example) as a one-time fee? Then you'd have the same revenue and you wouldn't have alienated a whole busload of your formerly loyal customers by imposing a subscription model on them.
Because that way, you wouldn't get any of the subscription benefits at all. It's much better for you to pay for two years of the subscription up front* and then immediately cancel the autorenewal. That way, you get all the benefits of the fallback license PLUS two years' worth of additional subscription perks and benefits for no additional cost.
* I'm not 100% sure we'll be able to offer paying two years upfront because our subscription engine doesn't support that yet, but we're hoping to make that possible by launch. It will certainly be possible to pay for one year upfront.
Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
I listened to it a sixth time, and I still don't hear the boss saying that.
I agree. He doesn't say that. This video was about perks, not about restating a policy we've stated again and again and again. But Bill does NOT say you will LOSE features you've already paid for because that is not the policy.
This video was about perks, not about restating a policy we've stated again and again and again.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
he specifically said we'd keep features we had in L10 "after subscribing for 24 months."
But he didn't say that. As I wrote earlier, what Bill said was:
For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
I appreciate the mention of Logos 10 ownership might have been slightly confusing, but Bill is NOT saying you have to subscribe for 24 months to keep features you had in L10. He's explicitly saying that the 24 months qualification is to retain features from your subscription. I guess for extra clarity he could have added "to retain features from your subscription that you don't already own". That last part was implied by Bill, but I'm happy to make it explicit here.
so it might be helpful to keep saying some stuff in these updates that you've already said...stuff that matters to those of us who think we've been told to grab our ankles I know y'all don't get it, but BOHICA is *exactly* how the imposed subscription model feels to some of us long-time customers.)
I had to look BOHICA up!
I get it, I really do. I'm a customer too, with a big investment into Logos features and resources that I don't want to lose.
And fair enough. You're right that we should keep repeating the key promises. They do matter. So, just for you [:)]:
So no, subscription is not going to be a great thing for everybody. The present plan would have to change a lot in order to begin to appeal to me; I do not anticipate that happening. In all likelihood, when this rolls out finally, Logos is likely to get $0 instead of what I normally happily spend at upgrade time.
Nothing has been said about family subscriptions. I own L10. I purchased L10 also for 4 of my children. Another child has Logos, just not L10. So I am concerned about the cost of subscription for children from teens to college age.
Is a family subscription also being considered?
Is a family subscription also being considered?
Logos for families is something close to Phil Gons' heart. It's something we'd like to do in the future, but we don't have firm plans yet.
Is a family subscription also being considered?Logos for families is something close to Phil Gons' heart. It's something we'd like to do in the future, but we don't have firm plans yet.
Thanks. Just so Phil knows, its the end of the line if no family subscription. Too expensive to give subscriptions to the kids. And that would be sad since of the 4 children, 3 use the program daily.
I feel sorry for Logos on this one, trying to navigate forward for the good of their business and customers. This thread has been disheartening and frustrating to read, and it took me a day or so to figure out why.
I think this thread shows that whatever they attempt to say, and in whatever means they attempt to say it, and how many times and in how many ways they attempt to say it, it's just not good enough - people still take issue with how they said it or some nuance of interpretation. The amount of repetition and regurgitation of issues is dizzying imho. The more communication there is, the more contentious some of the posts get.
For Logos' sake I hope they offer their programs soon (I know it will be Sept or so) - then let the programs speak for themselves and people can decide what they want to do. I for one think their heart is in the right place, and their track record shows that once things are in place if something is broken or unfair they will fix it if at all possible. I trust in that.
I feel sorry for Logos on this one, trying to navigate forward for the good of their business and customers. This thread has been disheartening and frustrating to read, and it took me a day or so to figure out why.
I think this thread shows that whatever they attempt to say, and in whatever means they attempt to say it, and how many times and in how many ways they attempt to say it, it's just not good enough - people still take issue with how they said it or some nuance of interpretation. The amount of repetition and regurgitation of issues is dizzying imho. The more communication there is, the more contentious some of the posts get.
For Logos' sake I hope they offer their programs soon (I know it will be Sept or so) - then let the programs speak for themselves and people can decide what they want to do. I for one think their heart is in the right place, and their track record shows that once things are in place if something is broken or unfair they will fix it if at all possible. I trust in that.
I've been offline for a few weeks and am just getting caught up on things. I just took time to read the entire thread to make sure I understand it before responding. Don, your post was a great summary how I think we should all view the current developments in Logos. I agree with you and trust that Logos will work things out in the long run. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being and, in the meantime, continue to simply enjoy the amazing experience of using this phenomenal software system for studying the Bible and faith in general.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
trust that Logos will work things out in the long run.
L needs to know we are watching. They know we are watching by us sharing our concerns.
We who share our concerns wonder if they take us into consideration in the details, in the fine granularity needed so all people and all situations have a fair hearing by L.
You who share very little/nothing re concerns reap the benefit of those who brought up this + that + the other.
Bruce, look at the Search cluster-mess. It was a bad roll out. We who spoke up said 'whoa,' you, L, can do better. The better benefits all.
L needs to know we are watching. They know we are watching by us sharing our concerns.
We who share our concerns wonder if they take us into consideration in the details, in the fine granularity needed so all people and all situations have a fair hearing by L.
You who share very little/nothing re concerns reap the benefit of those who brought up this + that + the other.
Bruce, look at the Search cluster-mess. It was a bad roll out. We who spoke up said 'whoa,' you, L, can do better. The better benefits all.
FWIW, I completely agree with this.
The whole reason we went with the Early Access program instead of just launching the thing in the fall was so that we could listen to conversations like these.
I know a slow rollout can be frustrating when we don't yet have all the answers, but these threads have been invaluable in shaping what we do and (hopefully) getting to a solution that works well both for you as customers and for us as a company. (With the caveat that you can't please all the people all the time, of course!)
Hi, Bill.
Thanks for the update. I am glad to hear about the "fallback license". Two quick questions for now.
1) If I am a Logos 10 owner and already subscribed to Logos Pro, are these months counting toward the 24 months needed for the "fallback license?
2) I understand the AI features being tied to a subscription, but will you still consider letting us "fallback" customers keep at least some of them? I was a little surprised by adding new cloud features to the exclusions. If AI and Cloud features are not included, it could certainly lower the incentive, especially if most of the new features fall under these two categories. I hope there will be new desktop features as well.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
Hi, Bill.
Thanks for the update. I am glad to hear about the "fallback license". Two quick questions for now.
1) If I am a Logos 10 owner and already subscribed to Logos Pro, are these months counting toward the 24 months needed for the "fallback license?
2) I understand the AI features being tied to a subscription, but will you still consider letting us "fallback" customers keep at least some of them? I was a little surprised by adding new cloud features to the exclusions. If AI and Cloud features are not included, it could certainly lower the incentive, especially if most of the new features fall under these two categories. I hope there will be new desktop features as well.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
I just stumbled on to this video as I do not read the forums very often. I am somewhat concerned where this is going but will have to see what happens. I do hope some of this is documented somewhere in an email or a separate Logos webpage and people are advised of the changes. After all we get bombarded almost daily by email with promotions surely something can be advised formally.
Colin
I appreciate you taking the time for an update, I wish there was more encouragement for myself as a user personally. As it sounds as though logos is firmly committed to a monthly or subscription-based option, even for what you're calling forever, access. Forever access, based on your comments I'm assuming is what we call perpetual license.
It is disappointing, that there has not been an announcement that we will have the same option to just purchase outright rather than having to subscribe for 2 years to earn features that we may or may not be interested in depending on what is considered cloud-based and AI based.
A question that does come up in relation to this, is along the lines of Mark Barnes comments in previous posts. Mark had suggested that there will be discounted annual options for subscription and quite possibly biannual options at a discount for the subscription. So my question is this, will those discounted bi-annual subscriptions or discounted annual subscriptions apply to what you're calling forever? Access to the features we have if we stop subscribing after 24 months? If so, then why not just offer the purchase of the features for the same price as the 2-month discounted subscription?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
I guess we'll get more next month. But off the top of my calculating head, the breakeven subscription (for me) is going to be 10 bucks a month. That's the Full-Feature divided by the 'retain-access' of 24 months (new features, previously dynamic-priced). I don't need more free books, nor rewards, nor tiny percentage offs. I'm not very perky ... and I assume, the perks are strictly launch-only.
Now, based strictly on rumor, the content in my above breakeven (all the features) are likely to be the 'max' subscription. Or multiples of my current breakeven. I can see that being great for Bill. But not for me.
Essentially, Bill needs to deliver multiples of value, compared to the past. Not likely.
So .... other Logosians will need to step up to the plate, and fund Logos. We'll await the next message.
ADDED: Crazy me ... it just dawned on me (or maybe listen to the video again). A newbie (smart newbie) can pick up all (that's the question) features in 24 months for maybe $800 or so ($35 x 24). Now, an oldie (me) would spend the same (same subscription) and end up with considerably less (I already 'own' most). Now ignoring 'fairness', the model really turns on lots of smart newbies.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.