Official: More details about the coming subscription launch
Comments
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First, let me say, I completely understand your concerns! Logos/Faithlife/whatever name they are using this month has made several promises, and due to circumstances within and beyond their control, have been altered, broken, etc. Like you, Forgive me, if I don't trust your say so.
Second, as far as current situations go, I do applaud the company's current attempts and believable intentions. I word it this way, because I actually do believe their intended 'promises are ones they believe they can honor later. I dont always believe this and trust this, as several changes have been made that have altered their promises. Offers, pricing, reductions in what was all fill me with a very bad taste in my mouth. Faithlife Now, for example, was a completely different offering when it started. We were given quite a bit of "benefits" it was actually worth subscribing to. Then it changed to Faithlife Connect, and so did the offerings. We lost some benefits. They promised current prices would remain forever, as long as we remained subscribers. But, if we cancel, even for a month, we could be subject to the new rates (this is as I remember the ":promise"). Do I believe this? Not a chance. But, it appears, and I do highlight that, that they are committed to honoring that promise; even with this transition. (Hoping so). Now, however, we are to lose yet another ebook a month. Well, that's not too big a deal for me, because I'm at the cheaper books anyway, so, it's not a huge benefit any longer, But, it's still nice.
Ok, all that to say, You are right to be concerned over their "promises". However, they are currently a company that has done the right thing (NOT something I have given them a lot of praise for; but the contrary) in that they have struck deals so that once we buy a book, pr resource, we "own" it, even if Logos loses the license to that book. A big problem for people in other situations where they have purchased a movie, for example, and suddenly, they no longer have access to it. WHY NOT? So, in this one area, I do praise Logos for doing the right thing.Not that is any of your business, but I had a “cool” program for CRM before and invested significantly amount of money also, and they became a subscription company. Bottom line, lost any ability to use the program further and hence money spent. Not to mention all my effort and data I needed to migrate.
Seems a bit presumptuous of you for asking about worrying for “cool” features at $10. Every dollar is to be used wisely, even if it for “cool” features, no matter how much I have spent.
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The non-sensical is ignorant forum users like yourself
Wow, you don't play around do you? Instead of giving someone the benefit of the doubt, you just go for the ad hominem attack. If this was an Accordance forum, you'd have already been blocked.
Yeah - it's me.... I have extended so much grace and have been accused of whining, griping, insinuated as an agent of Satan and just add the non-sensical insult as well - not to mention the constant misrepresentation of my statements -but yeah talk about my ad-hominem attack.... Hypocrisy anyone? Funny how my use of the same words is an attack, but it's not when directed to me.... Speaks volumes
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Being inferred Satanic was reported and nothing was done....I wonder if it would have been rectified if I or someone else outspoken against some decisions inferred that towards Logos or someone who supports their decisions.... Probably would have been, just as MVPs would likely point to Forum Guidelines if that were the case....The ability to report abusive posts is provided under the more option.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I have extended so much grace
Yeah, I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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Funny you mention that. That link is the very reason I even searched this thread today.
Maybe it's my own misunderstanding of what the Fallback Legacy License actually is.
I was under the understanding that after 2 years, the books we "rented" through our subscription were ours, even if we cancel. But, under that link, it seems that is NOT the case. We only get to keep the "non internet" features after 2 years?
Thats a HUGE letdown, if I am misunderstanding that incorrectly.Your statement here could be misleading to some, who may not understand the new system yet - your "own at the end of it" statement is not settled nor confirmed by Logos yet
The "Legacy Fallback Licensing" has been confirmed by Logos: https://www.logos.com/early-access#faq
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I have extended so much grace
Yeah, I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Yeah.... Whatever Mark....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I was under the understanding that after 2 years, the books we "rented" through our subscription were ours, even if we cancel.
If you're talking about the books that come with the subscription, you're correct. You won't own them after 2 years. If you're talking about books you purchase at any point, they're yours until Jesus returns. And probably even after that.
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Funny you mention that. That link is the very reason I even searched this thread today.
Maybe it's my own misunderstanding of what the Fallback Legacy License actually is.
I was under the understanding that after 2 years, the books we "rented" through our subscription were ours, even if we cancel. But, under that link, it seems that is NOT the case. We only get to keep the "non internet" features after 2 years?
Thats a HUGE letdown, if I am misunderstanding that incorrectly.Your statement here could be misleading to some, who may not understand the new system yet - your "own at the end of it" statement is not settled nor confirmed by Logos yet
The "Legacy Fallback Licensing" has been confirmed by Logos: https://www.logos.com/early-access#faq
The books not being included is one of the things that Logos has been clear about from the beginning - the books are temporary.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Ahh well, all software (like all flesh) is as grass in the end ...
Indeed.
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Well, that changes the whole discussion I had with CS. He said I might lose a few books. So, reality is, if I cancel today, I'd lose all the books from the last 8 years that I had not actually purchased?The books not being included is one of the things that Logos has been clear about from the beginning - the books are temporary.
[:O] Well, that's a disappointing development.
Then again, I dont even know what books I own or dont own. I do wish there was a way to identify that. With as many different libraries I have purchased, I am so unsure what is and is not rented any more.
Do you know of any way to identify Logos owned titles? If so, thanks. If not, oh well.0 -
Well, that changes the whole discussion I had with CS. He said I might lose a few books. So, reality is, if I cancel today, I'd lose all the books from the last 8 years that I had not actually purchased?The books not being included is one of the things that Logos has been clear about from the beginning - the books are temporary.
Well, that's a disappointing development.
Then again, I dont even know what books I own or dont own. I do wish there was a way to identify that. With as many different libraries I have purchased, I am so unsure what is and is not rented any more.
Do you know of any way to identify Logos owned titles? If so, thanks. If not, oh well.No - any books you have purchased you will keep subscribed or not - the subscriptions include some books and those books are temporary. Your books are yours - the subscription books are tied to being a subscriber.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I do wish there was a way to identify that. With as many different libraries I have purchased, I am so unsure what is and is not rented any more.
In the bat-library tool one of the columns displays the kind of bat-licence you own for a resource. You can sort on this column and group the types. I think the ones that say 'temporary' are the ones you don't own.
👁️ 👁️
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I think the issue (illustrated by current pie-the-sky plans), is the lost ability to see before you buy
"See before you buy" has never been part of subscription plans, that's my point, Me thinks the community is too hard on Logos on this one. An argument to see before you buy on a subscription plan is non-sensical and on-existent in the real world.
Why the community expects Logos to be the first ever to commit to features to be delivered over a two year period makes no sense to me. Did anyone see an AI-based search synopsis 2 years ago? From what I could see, the term "AI" didn't even show up in the forums ever until 2023. If a software company was forced to commit to a features list 2 years in advance, it would be such baby sets of improvements no one would buy it. Oh - and you couldn't even run the AI-based features already out on a Mac prior to 2022.
Again another ignorant misrepresentation!!! A comparison clearly stating a lost benefit of losing the traditional purchase option vs the new subscription option is not expecting Logos to know everything that will be included two years from October launch.....The non-sensical is ignorant forum users like yourself misrepresenting others and then calling said misrepresented view non-sensical - which even if said view was actually a user's view should not be insulted with such statements.... Forum guidelines anyone..... Add non-sensical to griping, whining, childish and the classic Satinic/Satanic insults directed toward those who dare share a contrary view....
Frank, it's time you stopped calling people "IGNORANT" and "SATANICAL". I have reported your posts, and blocked you. You should be banned from here with insults like that.
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First, thank you for your "up til now" explanation.As you probably know, in the fall, we'll launch the next version of Logos as a subscription. We're slowly rolling out the subscription, and more and more customers are now able to get early access to it.
As the full launch gets closer, I wanted to give you a few more updates on what to expect...
As we approach our fall launch and finalize our plans, we'll provide more updates over the coming weeks. If you let us know which questions you would like answered, we'll try to prioritize those for you in the next update.
Unfortunately, however, it seems as if we are left with more questions than answers.
We can't go backwards, of course, and hind-sight is almost always 20/20. Nevertheless, I would have thought Logos would have waited to begin rolling this out, until Logos knew exactly what was going on.
Yes, there may never be the "perfect" time; but, as you say, "As we approach our fall launch and finalize our plans..." leading me to believe Logos was more concerned about beating deadlines than finalizing plans, and knowing exactly what was going to happen. Perhaps Logos does; but, it doesn't seem to be as clear as Logos would like to think it is. Of course, it may never be known just how many questions arise, until revelation day-- regardless how well prepared one is.
Just a thought, and, hopefully there's a way to get a better control on things; now that the "cat is out of the bag" as they say. And, perhaps this thread was intended to do precisely that.0 -
Thanks. That may be exactly what I am hoping for.
^v^I do wish there was a way to identify that. With as many different libraries I have purchased, I am so unsure what is and is not rented any more.
In the bat-library tool one of the columns displays the kind of bat-licence you own for a resource. You can sort on this column and group the types. I think the ones that say 'temporary' are the ones you don't own.
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]Being inferred Satanic was reported and nothing was done...
I would have reported it if I had seen it but I have been skipping most of the threads on subscriptions most of the time because my honest response to many of the posts would be inappropriate regardless of how politely they were framed.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think the issue (illustrated by current pie-the-sky plans), is the lost ability to see before you buy
"See before you buy" has never been part of subscription plans, that's my point, Me thinks the community is too hard on Logos on this one. An argument to see before you buy on a subscription plan is non-sensical and on-existent in the real world.
Why the community expects Logos to be the first ever to commit to features to be delivered over a two year period makes no sense to me. Did anyone see an AI-based search synopsis 2 years ago? From what I could see, the term "AI" didn't even show up in the forums ever until 2023. If a software company was forced to commit to a features list 2 years in advance, it would be such baby sets of improvements no one would buy it. Oh - and you couldn't even run the AI-based features already out on a Mac prior to 2022.
Again another ignorant misrepresentation!!! A comparison clearly stating a lost benefit of losing the traditional purchase option vs the new subscription option is not expecting Logos to know everything that will be included two years from October launch.....The non-sensical is ignorant forum users like yourself misrepresenting others and then calling said misrepresented view non-sensical - which even if said view was actually a user's view should not be insulted with such statements.... Forum guidelines anyone..... Add non-sensical to griping, whining, childish and the classic Satinic/Satanic insults directed toward those who dare share a contrary view....
Frank, it's time you stopped calling people "IGNORANT" and "SATANICAL". I have reported your posts, and blocked you. You should be banned from here with insults like that.
I am the one who was insinuated as Satanic.... You refer to people or their views as nonsensical and then want me banned for calling out ignorance.... Amazing!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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That is when I first learned of Logos and Libronix.
I was highly concerned that I would buy Logos 3, and a couple months later, there would be a Logos 4.
The sales rep assured me he had not heard of a Logos 4, and even if it did happen, it wouldn't really affect me. People have have had Logos since version 1 and it's been about 20 years, and we are only at Logos 3".
Now, did he lie? Technically, no. All of that is true. But, knowing that I was not wanting to invest my annual salary (slight exaggeration; closer to a monthly salary) and a couple months later, have to do it all over again, it was undoubtedly skirting around the truth. PERHAPS Logos did not let the sales reps know, so as to not let it out that L4 was right around the corner. And, yes, it wasnt even two months later, and there it was, L4!
I felt betrayed, lied to, and have pretty much hated Logos ever since. Prior to Logos, I loved using electronic Bibles and libraries. At our church, we thought it was so cool that one person had their Bible on their laptop. No one was distracted, bothered or annoyed. I found several hundred dollar libraries, one retailed at $100, I got for $30-40. Quick Verse, I got for cheap. and maybe one or 2 others. Everything was awesome. Easy to use. So, when Logos was introduced, I was debating between it and Bible Works (good thing I went with Logos, after all lol). Unfortunately, however, the root of bitterness set in, as several here can attest to. MJ has been a HUGE blessing throughout the years, as one example; and the more I sunk in, the more bitter I have become. Not to mention, the program was nowhere near as easy to learn for me, as I expected. And after having shelled out a fortune, I learned of the MPSeminars, and it's Camp Logos, ANOTHER FORTUNE just to learn an expensive software title. All a recipe for disaster.
Thanks to John Fallahee reaching out to me, personally, I had a better understanding of why he charged as he did. I found his lessons to be more affordable. But, the desire has long been lost. MPSeminars had a great deal going, $20/mo to go through their lessons. I had hoped after a couple months, I would have been able to learn things about how to operate this software, that keeps eating money I really dont have. Then it doubled in price, and is not worth it. Not to mention, the lack of time.
Forward to today; I was once again, optimistic that my investment was finally paying off. We'll see. I always hope for the best, but, have come to expect the worst.
Now arent you sorry you responded? LOL. In a long journey, THAT is what happened between L3 and L4.THAT explains so much frustration I've had since my beginning, back in 2009! (The transitional L3 to L4 period.
Batman, nothing happened at L3 to L4 ... same owners (Rosie can clarify). Now, I agree, killing Libby wasn't very nice (smiling).
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Yes, that did the trick; I think. If everything as if looks, I would lose only 232 titles. about a quarter are Bible Study Magazines; nice to have, but, not disastrous. The other? Not a horrible loss, either.
ThanksI do wish there was a way to identify that. With as many different libraries I have purchased, I am so unsure what is and is not rented any more.
In the bat-library tool one of the columns displays the kind of bat-licence you own for a resource. You can sort on this column and group the types. I think the ones that say 'temporary' are the ones you don't own.
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I discovered the What's New in Logos Webinar, particularly August, and I am jumping up and down with excitement. I am not even 10 minutes into the webinar, and I feel after 15+ years, I will FINALLY be able to fully use Logos, and I mean FULLY!
I'm not quite sure where things have changed: has it always been this easy, or, has it been extremely complicated, and infuriating to the lesser user, and it has been simplified so a dummy such as I can understand. However, I am finally excited, to have the ability to comprehend what everyone else has been able to do, since day one!
But, so far, the Early Access is exactly what I had expected so many years ago, when I invested in Logos. Just seeing you explain the very second item (behind the name change to Dashboard) everything became extremely simple. I tried a search, for a verse that refused to show up several years ago, that caused L:ogos to rework the search, and, the fuzzy search found it immediately. Up til now, I used Google to do my searches, leaving me to wondering WHY I have over $10k invested in this software program.
All my apprehensions about subscriptions (which I already had been doing) to what benefits I would be losing, and, i have no doubts I will be losing out, somehow, are no longer a concern, because as I stated, this version seems extremely easy to use, ALL the features, without having to spend 600 years going to Logos University to still not understand how to use one millionth of the software.
THANK YOU! And, THANK YOU Logos for FINALLY coming up with a Logos even a dummy like me can understand!0 -
Throughout the years, I have been extremely disgruntled with Logos, and EVERY TIME I've come to try and get a glimmer of hope, a spark to find my fire and enthusiasm for this very frustrating (to me) software, you have been here to encourage me.
I'm not sure if you know how much you have meant to me; I do hope I had thanked you previously; but, if not, allow me to now. And, yes, during the many years of frustration, I always appreciated your attempts to not coddle me, but rather, encourage me.
And, in case you are unaware, I just learned, within 10 minutes, how to successfully navigate the new Logos Early Access edition.
Maybe NOW, I can get over all the bitterness, feelings of deceit, and feeling ripped off (which I knew ONE day, once I "got it", I'd be thrilled, and can get to move forward. So, yes, thank you very much-- whether you realized it or not.]Being inferred Satanic was reported and nothing was done...
I would have reported it if I had seen it but I have been skipping most of the threads on subscriptions most of the time because my honest response to many of the posts would be inappropriate regardless of how politely they were framed.
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Please consider offering an Original Languages library at launch as well :-)
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since Mark doesn't check your ownership until Oct 2027
I think this bit is the issue. I think after 24 months it will trigger an automatic issuance of the License. I don't think they only check in Oct.
We've also previously announced that Logos 10 owners will also be able to qualify for the Legacy Fallback License. This means that if you remain subscribed for 24 consecutive months, you'll be your features, even if you subsequently cancel your subscription. (A few features, especially those cloud-backed or AI-based, will be excluded from the Legacy Fallback License.) The legacy fallback license will be available in October 2026, so if you qualify before then because you're part of early access, you'll need to wait until October before you receive it. If you qualify after that, we'll give you the license as soon as you qualify.
I had to go back and find Marks actual post/words.
I think many people have missed what has been said and/or misconstrued his comments.
My take; The Oct 2026 date was mentioned as the FIRST issuance of a fallback license. That date happens to be 2 years after the OFFICIAL release of the Subscription model (not the early access date),
It was also stated elsewhere that those who subscribed early access wise, would get those "early" months counted toward their 24 month total (but the 1st OFFICIAL fallback license would not be issued until Oct '26).
In other places was it stated/assumed that the fallback license would only be issued each Oct starting in '26. This is incorrect.
In the section I quoted (and highlighted/emphasized) from Mark above explicitly states that after that 1st license is issued (in Oct 26) for those eligible for said license, that the fallback license would be issued AS SOON AS you qualify for it.
So NO, if you subscribe Jan '25 through Jan '27, you DO NOT have to wait until Oct '27 to get your Fallback. At least according to what Mark has clearly stated.
Aaron was correct in his response to DMB.
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I can't shake the feeling that there's been a certain manner offense taken at the idea of seminaries making and preserving a deep, long-term commitment to Logos...
But they're seminaries. They're teaching for the faith, and they have to.
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What about building libraries for other use cases, especially since the capacity to build larger libraries of our own, as it exists now, will soon be no more? That seems to make sense.
II'll save on the content I want to get today and tomorrow if I get a package now, as well, but in the immediate term, it seems getting a feature package while I have the chance is much more important.
I can't say I really think the feature sets in the subscriptions has been found by me to be necessary or sensible; I think I'd rather be supported to delve and to my own material and enjoy it than have combinations of it formulated for me; I'll save by not paying for features that would make me unhappy and uncomfortable just so I could have some content that would give me a little bit of help looking over my library. Honestly, it really seems like these AI features came from out of nowhere.
So what's going to be in the new denominational libraries?
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since Mark doesn't check your ownership until Oct 2027
I think this bit is the issue. I think after 24 months it will trigger an automatic issuance of the License. I don't think they only check in Oct.
We've also previously announced that Logos 10 owners will also be able to qualify for the Legacy Fallback License. This means that if you remain subscribed for 24 consecutive months, you'll be your features, even if you subsequently cancel your subscription. (A few features, especially those cloud-backed or AI-based, will be excluded from the Legacy Fallback License.) The legacy fallback license will be available in October 2026, so if you qualify before then because you're part of early access, you'll need to wait until October before you receive it. If you qualify after that, we'll give you the license as soon as you qualify.
I had to go back and find Marks actual post/words.
I think many people have missed what has been said and/or misconstrued his comments.
My take; The Oct 2026 date was mentioned as the FIRST issuance of a fallback license. That date happens to be 2 years after the OFFICIAL release of the Subscription model (not the early access date),
It was also stated elsewhere that those who subscribed early access wise, would get those "early" months counted toward their 24 month total (but the 1st OFFICIAL fallback license would not be issued until Oct '26).
In other place was it stated that fallback license would only be issued each Oct starting in '26.
And in the section I quoted (and highlighted/emphasized) from Mark above explicitly states that after that 1st license is issued (in Oct 26) for those eligible for said license, that the fallback license would be issued AS SOON AS you qualify for it.
So NO, if you subscribe Jan '25 through Jan '27, you DO NOT have to wait until Oct '27 to get your Fallback. At least according to what Mark has clearly stated.
Aaron was correct in his response to DMB.
These posts are what has led to the confusion:
1Cor10 31">Mark: What happens if I subscribe for 2 years from Jan 1, 2025 to Dec 31th, 2026? Does the Fallback license include only the features introduced over the 2 years that I subscribe? If so, you will need to be tracking for each customer what Feature set to be given as Fallback license, isn't it? Is that the plan?
I won't be possible for us to create different licenses for every person, so in that case, your LFL license will include all the features delivered up until October 2026, including those delivered before you became a subscriber, but not including those delivered in November and December.
I appreciate the clarification on this - though I do wonder how it would not be possible to allow for "personal" licensure - that has been the standard back since the Libronix days buying modules and through L10 buying feature sets.... Every person had their own license starting on the date they purchased whatever module or set they chose....
What has changed in the Licensure system that would prevent the same?
We still operate a very similar license system. The problem is that we have three subscription tiers. Double it because of Verbum. Then multiply that by seven because that's how many languages we support. Maybe there are more subscription tiers in the future. Maybe some seminaries get custom subscription configurations for their students.
In other words, it's likely that there will already be 50 different legacy fallback license combinations we'd need to create just to support what I've described. If we personalized it for every user depending on their subscription length you could probably 10x that figure. Maybe more. And as a result, we couldn't do that manually, we'd have to automate it. That's the capability we don't have. And getting it would be a significant investment that would take time away from building and improving Bible study features.
I believe the part that leads to this is the Fallback being advertised as a user earning ownership after two years, but the ownership seems to be tied to October per Mark's comments here. The initial info didn't tie it to October, but to a user completing two years - these posts in which Mark clarified opened the door to the new confusion which now needs to be clarified - the second post I inserted appears to be tied to excessive investment needed for licenses to be handed out at each individual 2 year mark.
So Mark needs to give insight on whether the Fallback Licenses will be perpetually tied to October timeframes or if it is a one time incident - the second post again, makes it sound like a system limitation preventing some action.
Though it is possible that the confusion is tied more to what Features you will have in a Fallback License than the License itself.... The former may be limited to the October date not the earned license itself - I can see that being what was meant... As it seems there were two different discussions one about features earned then one about when the license went into effect.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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It doesn't make sense if it is; there's not an unconditional correlation between title and use case, and I'm likely to buy a library of a certain size because it has the most appropriate range of stuff I want to look at, not because I'm a pastor or a deacon or a lay leader, you get me?
I'm feeling like, if this really is about the priesthood of all believers, the drive of those with passion but without title should be recognized and supported.
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Regardless of whatever might happen, that's an awfully long time. You want to throw an investment that far ahead when things are liable to change so much, including your availability?
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Please consider offering an Original Languages library at launch as well :-)
Yes! Yes! and Yes! [Y]
It has been a long time since Logos offered an Original Language Library publicly. I got one durning the Logos 4 days.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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You're in luck
It's not 100% confirmed yet, but I think it is likely there will be:
- Standard track: Starter through Collectors
- "Lay leaders" track: Starter through Gold
- "Preachers" track: Bronze through Diamond
- "Original languages" track: Silver through Portfolio
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