Official: More details about the coming subscription launch
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Also, thanks so much to MJ, Graham, Dave, Mark, Jack, and all the other MVP’s who have helped me through the years in learning how to use Logos. Logos is much more powerful and tailored to my needs due to your gracious help.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We've also had lots of questions about pricing. We’re working out final pricing for everyone, but we can confirm what the discounted pricing will be for Logos 10 owners:
- Premium: $6.99/month or $69.99/year (for those with Bronze features or higher)
- Pro: $9.99/month or $99.99/year (for those with Silver features or higher)
- Max: $12.99/month or $129.99/year (requires Full Feature Set)
The prices listed above are the same as the Early Access prices. Will these prices remain the same for Logos 10 users with Bronze or higher feature sets indefinitely? There seems to be a lot of people who don't want to subscribe now, but perhaps would consider it in a year or two if they see there are benefits to AI or some other new feature. I (and likely others) have been assuming if users didn't subscribe before the formal switch to subscriptions (and discontinuing Logos 10), all new subscribers would have to pay the higher prices.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
1Cor10 31">. If the CEO doesn't achieve the objective set out by the private equity investors, he will be fired.
True. I remember Bill McCarthy saying early on that he might not be CEO forever. That isn't to say he wouldn't want to be. I understood that statement as an admittance that it's just not his call. Nonetheless, current Logos leadership are Christians. And the private equity firm has wisely allowed/determined it to be so. If that changes in the future, I will be worried. But not today. Today I am grateful for the leadership in place at Logos.
CEOs are accountable to the corporate board, and the corporate board of Logos is going to be controlled by the private equity investors. While the CEO and top people at Logos are Christians and try to reflect God's character in everything they do, the reality is that if the performance benchmarks set by private equity investors are not met, they will be fired. That is corporate reality. I have lots of sympathy for people like Mark Barnes, who have immense respect on this Forum.
btw, the private equity investors are managing other investors' money. Examples of other investors are firms like Goldman Sachs. Firms like Goldman Sachs, in turn, are managing rich people's money. It is a complicated web.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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I understand that denominational libraries come out in 2025, but I see Verbum as different from that. Will Verbum still exist as a separate entity, ie will there be a Verbum subscription plan that we could choose instead of the Logos Subscription? If so, will that happen at launch in 2024 or will we have to wait for that?
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I understand that denominational libraries come out in 2025, but I see Verbum as different from that. Will Verbum still exist as a separate entity, ie will there be a Verbum subscription plan that we could choose instead of the Logos Subscription? If so, will that happen at launch in 2024 or will we have to wait for that?
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Aaron Hamilton said:
One thought I would like to submit: Would you be willing to consider allowing subscribers to choose a certain number of Mobile Ed courses to unlock per quarter?
I'll pass the suggestion on.
I like that idea too. Giving the subscriber a choice. Without doing this, some negative issues come into play:
1. The idea of pre-selected courses means that (like the subscription books) many legacy users will likely already have the courses included with subscription.
2. The pre-selected course may not fit into the subscribers current level of education. If they are not ready for that course when it is offered, will it be offered again at a later time?
3. The pre-selected course that may only be accessed per/quarter adds a time constraint. Overcoming time constraints is one of the major reasons for online education as opposed to the traditional classroom.
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As this seems to be the currently active thread for subscriptions, I'll ask here:
I've just now started the trial for Logos Max. (I'm an L10 full feature owner.) Is there any one single place where I can see all the new features I have (with the subscription, not part of 10)? I want to see them listed out and briefly described--not endless scrolling webpages or videos, text please.
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Fascinating to learn that only current subscribers can purchase any libraries released after Logos 10. Seems like a draconian decision that really draws a line in the sand.
My first Logos purchase was 1.6. Since then I've seen so many renaming and rebranding efforts (Logos / Libronix / Faithlife / etc.), and oodles of revenue forks offered up. It's dizzying... and confusing. This trend continues, despite the efforts being made here on the forum and on Logos' web pages (truly, they are trying). There just remain too many choices and options.
In a recent video, the new CEO highlighted common customer feedback: (1) Logos is hard to use, and (2) Logos is expensive. I really hope Logos can make strides with the former; I don't see these subscription plans solving the latter, in all honesty.
I continue to support Logos via my (perpetual / legacy) purchases and recommendations to others to do the same. But I'll admit I'm concerned about how this all will play out.
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Scott K said:
Fascinating to learn that only current subscribers can purchase any libraries released after Logos 10. Seems like a draconian decision that really draws a line in the sand.
Mark Barnes indicated that this is not a change in policy - I believe him although I never ran into it before.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Frank Sauer said:
Just an observation with this - if the new libraries are only available to subscribers - how is it an exclusive additional discount... Wouldn't it just be the cost of the library, as they are only for subscribers - if everyone could purchase the new libraries the additional discount would apply....
Just trying to figure out the actual, functional extent of the benefits of the mentioned perks.
That's fair. There will be a site-wide 5% discount for subscribers, so when you add a library to your cart, you'll see the 5% discount taken off. But, in the case of libraries, it won't be possible to buy it at the higher price.
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1Cor10 31">
Will the libraries never be available for purchase if not a subscriber?
I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that at some point, these libraries will become "legacy libraries" and then be available to everyone.
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Don Awalt said:
I had one question about Mobile Ed - will there be new courses developed? My understanding is the Mobile Ed group has been pretty much shut down, so I am curious if the courses offered each quarter are the ones already available.
We're not actively developing new courses right now.
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Paul Gibson said:
The prices listed above are the same as the Early Access prices. Will these prices remain the same for Logos 10 users with Bronze or higher feature sets indefinitely? There seems to be a lot of people who don't want to subscribe now, but perhaps would consider it in a year or two if they see there are benefits to AI or some other new feature. I (and likely others) have been assuming if users didn't subscribe before the formal switch to subscriptions (and discontinuing Logos 10), all new subscribers would have to pay the higher prices.
I can't make a promise that Logos will never raise its prices, ever.
What I can say is that:
- If you get on the discount track, you will stay on the discount track indefinitely.
- There may come a time when it will no longer be possible to get on the discount track if you haven't already done so. If that happens, we'll announce it in advance to give you plenty of time to decide whether you want to come on board.
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Angela Schira said:
I understand that denominational libraries come out in 2025, but I see Verbum as different from that. Will Verbum still exist as a separate entity, ie will there be a Verbum subscription plan that we could choose instead of the Logos Subscription? If so, will that happen at launch in 2024 or will we have to wait for that?
Thanks for the question. Yes, I should have mentioned that in my initial post.
Verbum subscriptions and Verbum libraries will launch at the same time as the Logos subscriptions and standard libraries, in the fall.
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Sean said:
As this seems to be the currently active thread for subscriptions, I'll ask here:
I've just now started the trial for Logos Max. (I'm an L10 full feature owner.) Is there any one single place where I can see all the new features I have (with the subscription, not part of 10)? I want to see them listed out and briefly described--not endless scrolling webpages or videos, text please.
This subscription comparison chart is the best we have right now. Features that aren't included in the L10 FFS are highlighted in blue.
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Scott K said:
Fascinating to learn that only current subscribers can purchase any libraries released after Logos 10. Seems like a draconian decision that really draws a line in the sand.
It might be draconian if it wasn't possible to get a free trial or a pretty cheap single-month subscription and buy a library at the same time.
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Hello Mark
How would it be if I wait to subscribe for maybe 3 years and then subscribe. Will I then get the feature forever two if I have subscribed over 2 years?
Thanks for the clarification.
Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for the help and explanations. They are very helpful. I realised I have Logos 10 full features set and Verbum 10 Full Features set. This may seem like an unfortunate situation for me. Could I just subscribe to one and get the benefits of both? Thank so much.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Sean said:
As this seems to be the currently active thread for subscriptions, I'll ask here:
I've just now started the trial for Logos Max. (I'm an L10 full feature owner.) Is there any one single place where I can see all the new features I have (with the subscription, not part of 10)? I want to see them listed out and briefly described--not endless scrolling webpages or videos, text please.
This subscription comparison chart is the best we have right now. Features that aren't included in the L10 FFS are highlighted in blue.
Will the information pertaining to what Features are Fallback compliant and which are not be provided before the last chance sale ends? Again I ask this question, as it could persuade L10 purchases before the sale is out. Withholding this information until the last minute with this last chance ending very soon could hinder the customer in making the best decision for their personal use and purchase.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I would be curious to know if the 5% purchase discount will be in addition to other discounts (sales, academic discount, etc.) or if it will be replaced by the greater discount.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
1Cor10 31">
Will the libraries never be available for purchase if not a subscriber?
I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that at some point, these libraries will become "legacy libraries" and then be available to everyone.
Thanks for clarifying that Legacy libraries will not require subscription.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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John said:
1Cor10 31">
Private equity investors are not Christians
I just did a search for "christian private equity firm" and found a long list of faith based investment related companies.
What are your sources that Logos is owned by non-christian investors?
I am sure there are faith-based private equity firms, but that is not relevant. What is relevant is the private equity firm that now owns Logos - It is Cove Hill Partners. Here are the other companies that they've also invested. You can see Logos in the 3rd row,
Is Cove Hill Partners a Christian private equity firm that invests in Christian firms? I don't think so. All I need is one portfolio firm that is not Christian to make my point. I picked an easy one to check - Gamma Technologies. It is a Tech firm. I also checked ArtLogic and Netdocuments and they are not Christian firms.
Even if Cove Hill Partners is a Christian private equity firm, the ultimate investors of Logos is hard to pin down. As I said in my previous post, the private equity investors are managing other investors' money. Examples of other investors are firms like Goldman Sachs. Firms like Goldman Sachs, in turn, are managing rich people's money and part of that money is given to Cove Hill Partners because Cove Hill Partners has expertise in some pockets of investments that Goldman Sachs doesn't have an expertise. So the ultimate owner who ultimately pulls the strings of Logos is unlikely to be Christian.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:
Is Cove Hill Partners a Christian private equity firm that invests in Christian firms? I don't think so.
You may well be right about this, but to date they have seemingly by and large let Christians run the company, and reason dictates they will continue to do so. Why would they put someone who is not a Christian in leadership of an obviously Christian company? No doubt they are smart enough to know that a move like that would erode trust and be bad for business. However, perhaps it would be prudent to create a new thread for this discussion as it is clearly off topic.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
1Cor10 31">Is Cove Hill Partners a Christian private equity firm that invests in Christian firms? I don't think so.
You may well be right about this, but to date they have seemingly by and large let Christians run the company, and reason dictates they will continue to do so. Why would they put someone who is not a Christian in leadership of an obviously Christian company? No doubt they are smart enough to know that a move like that would erode trust and be bad for business. However, perhaps it would be prudent to create a new thread for this discussion as it is clearly off topic.
I am sure there are Christians who are running secular firms but everyone is ultimately responsible to their investors. That is the point I'm making. And investors care about returns.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:
everyone is ultimately responsible to their investors. That is the point I'm making. And investors care about returns.
I see and agree with your point. Nothing is certain in this life. A number of things could go wrong with Logos in the next 20 years. This is why I am delighted to support and pray for the company. Logos has been a blessing to me, and my prayer is that they will continue to be a blessing indefinitely. Logos may be in the hands of Cove Hill, but Cove Hill is in the hands of God. Let's not forget the ultimate authority.
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1Cor10 31 said:
John said:1Cor10 31">
Private equity investors are not Christians
I just did a search for "christian private equity firm" and found a long list of faith based investment related companies.
What are your sources that Logos is owned by non-christian investors?
I am sure there are faith-based private equity firms, but that is not relevant. What is relevant is the private equity firm that now owns Logos - It is Cove Hill Partners. Here are the other companies that they've also invested. You can see Logos in the 3rd row,
This discussion is distracting from the point of this thread for users.
We get it. People and companies have benchmarks to meet, Christian or otherwise. That's always not a bad thing. It happens in churches too with staff members and volunteers.
But as far as this thread is concerned, I'd suggest moving your concerns to its own thread for clarity's sake so that other users may follow the conversation that pertains more closely to Mark Barnes' original post.
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In reference to Mobile ED
Do these get added to our library automatically or will it work like it does now where we get a code and purchase a 180-license to view them? I would also like to see, though it hasn't happened in a while, where the course(s) of a month get a large discount if we want to keep them. It would be better if we just could but that is not cost friendly to you...
Also, I haven't seen it mentioned ever so I assuming these are DOA but the 3 free connect books and lexham discount are gone forever?
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Berechiah said:
This isn't right but it's a very handy tool
Is it the AI that "isn't right", or the sources that it's pulling the information from? The footnotes are provided and the books are identified to determine accuracy. If the synopsis does not reflect what is in the sources, then, indeed, the AI "isn't right".
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Berechiah said:
I really like the ai bit it's isn't accurate when it comes to actual deep subjects... This isn't right but it's a very handy tool
Here's how you "fix" it. Instead of performing an "All" search (which will search the entire Logos library), remove all the Logos resources in your personal library that contain scientifically accurate information, leaving only those resources with a Young Earth bias, and then perform a "Books" search. You'll probably get the answer you want.
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Mark Allison said:Berechiah said:
I really like the ai bit it's isn't accurate when it comes to actual deep subjects... This isn't right but it's a very handy tool
Here's how you "fix" it. Instead of performing an "All" search (which will search the entire Logos library), remove all the Logos resources in your personal library that contain scientifically accurate information, leaving only those resources with a Young Earth bias, and then perform a "Books" search. You'll probably get the answer you want.
I assume you're using humor. But your point is why I don't see much value in a Logos AI (external is fine). It's which books, and maybe it's better to actually read them.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark Allison said:
Here's how you "fix" it. Instead of performing an "All" search (which will search the entire Logos library), remove all the Logos resources in your personal library that contain scientifically accurate information, leaving only those resources with a Young Earth bias, and then perform a "Books" search. You'll probably get the answer you want.
Actually, there's no need to remove anything from the library; creating a collection of preferred books and searching on that collection (in Books search) would do the trick.
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DMB said:
I assume you're using humor. But your point is why I don't see much value in a Logos AI (external is fine). It's which books, and maybe it's better to actually read them.
If you want to see results from a particular perspective, you'll need to follow Yasmin's advice and create collections that reflect your beliefs. If you're Catholic (for example), you're going to be disappointed if the answers reflect a Protestant bias. In this specific case, I think the AI should have mentioned the Young vs. Old Earth debate. At the very least it should have provided a link to the "Ark Encounter" exhibit.
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Mark Allison said:DMB said:
I assume you're using humor. But your point is why I don't see much value in a Logos AI (external is fine). It's which books, and maybe it's better to actually read them.
If you want to see results from a particular perspective ...
But I don't ... I want to know what an author has to say. Not Logos's 3rd-party summaries.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
But I don't ... I want to know what an author has to say. Not Logos's 3rd-party summaries.
It's not either/or. It's both/and.
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Mark Allison said:
It's not either/or. It's both/and.
Would that it were true. Most read 'about' authors and their presumed points.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark Allison said:
It's not either/or. It's both/and.
I like this and see many uses for it. Here's one: Create collections for several different denominations and, using my books search, compare and contrast the synopsis for various questions when directing the AI to give answers only from those denominational collections. Specific authors can easily be researched further due to AI providing references.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
Create collections for several different denominations and, using my books search, compare and contrast the synopsis for various questions when directing the AI to give answers only from those denominational collections.
I have friends who are Orthodox Christians, and that's exactly what they've done.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
Here's one: Create collections for several different denominations and, using my books search, compare and contrast the synopsis for various questions when directing the AI to give answers only from those denominational collections. Specific authors can easily be researched further due to AI providing references.
This also shouldn't be interpreted as protecting one's biases. There are some resources that I really like because they're thoughtful and thought-provoking, not because I always agree with them. There are other resources that I find unhelpful or even bizarre at all times, and I have no qualms about excluding them from search collections. Having an open mind doesn't mean you have to listen to every opinion. So, anyway, collections are great!
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Fabian said:
How would it be if I wait to subscribe for maybe 3 years and then subscribe. Will I then get the feature forever two if I have subscribed over 2 years?
We have no plans to stop offering the legacy license fallback to new subscribers, but I can't guarantee we'll still be offering that perk in three years' time.
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G. C. said:
Thanks for the help and explanations. They are very helpful. I realised I have Logos 10 full features set and Verbum 10 Full Features set. This may seem like an unfortunate situation for me. Could I just subscribe to one and get the benefits of both? Thank so much.
We discussed this internally recently.
Right now, no subscription features are exclusive to Verbum and not already included in the Verbum 10 Full Feature Set. There will be Verbum-exclusive books in the subscription, though. So, at least for now, if you don't mind not having the Verbum books, there's no need to have both a Logos and Verbum subscription.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
I would be curious to know if the 5% purchase discount will be in addition to other discounts (sales, academic discount, etc.) or if it will be replaced by the greater discount.
It will be in addition. (Very occasionally this might not be possible – perhaps due to a publisher restriction – but otherwise you should expect it to be in addition to other sales. If non-subscribers get 25% off, subscribers should get 30% off.)
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Thanks Mark for your reply. Appreciate you taking the time.
I have to start my logos max subscription tmr as my 1 month trial is over( I had assumed there were max features available for my testing) . It seems rather odd that I have to pay $129 for the year compared to the $99 Or $69, and I need to wait for the features to come and test.
I was wondering if there is a feature that I can delay my subscription for a while, or request for an extention(I did try to request for an extension but customer service told me I should subscribe to one month and cancel if I don't want).
Becuase it does seem I am paying for Max but getting the Pro features experience so far.
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Mattillo said:
Do these get added to our library automatically or will it work like it does now where we get a code and purchase a 180-license to view them? I would also like to see, though it hasn't happened in a while, where the course(s) of a month get a large discount if we want to keep them. It would be better if we just could but that is not cost friendly to you...
They will automatically be added to your library each quarter (and later removed and replaced with different courses). It would not surprise me if a discount were offered should you want to keep the course permanently.
Mattillo said:Also, I haven't seen it mentioned ever so I assuming these are DOA but the 3 free connect books and lexham discount are gone forever?
We previously announced that subscribers will get two free books a month instead of the one that non-subscribers get. This will usually be a modern title, rather than the public domain books offered by Connect. I think the 5% storewide discount will replace the Lexham-specific discount.
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G. C. said:
Becuase it does seem I am paying for Max but getting the Pro features experience so far.
If you already have the L10 Full Feature Set, the current difference between Max and Pro is just in the included books. You're welcome to downgrade your subscription to Pro until there are Max features that you're interested in.
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Thanks for the reply, Mark. However if I change to Pro now, I may lose the possibility of resubscribing to the $129 for max in the future? Thanks so much for the clarification.
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So once we’re on the discounted track, I’m assuming this means we can change tier, say premium to max and still keep the discounted track price?
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
There will be more to come on pricing. We know you want to know this, and we’re working to finalize it, making sure our rates fit the everyday pastor’s or student’s budget.
Very relieved to know that the academic discount will not be forgotten about for the subscription plan pricing. Thank you.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Don Awalt said:
I had one question about Mobile Ed - will there be new courses developed? My understanding is the Mobile Ed group has been pretty much shut down, so I am curious if the courses offered each quarter are the ones already available.
We're not actively developing new courses right now.
What about the Mobile Ed courses that are up on prepub? I have preorders in for NT208, ED282, ED283, TH375, and TH381. Will those still see the light of day, or have they been cancelled?
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