Forum Guidelines: No Theology Debates
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
If you want to rename Andrew the product manager for non-Evangelical/Reformed resources, I'm sure he'll not be offended.
I don't have the power to rename anyone. But you make a fantastic point. If that had been his title from the onset, I suspect much of the discussion would not have taken place. I can assure you it would have been missing my input.
Please note that the word Catholic in Andrew's title is capitalized.
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Schezic said:
My objection is not with the Catholics or what they believe...It is the policy (at least for the moment) of placing their interests above all other denominations that is at issue.
I think Mother Teresa of Calcutta had a very good policy.
She was a beautiful example of Matthew 5:16
I wish I were more like her and less judgmental of others.
1 Corinthians 13:2
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Schezic said:
Please note that the word Catholic in Andrew's title is capitalized.
I know. But he had already responded affirmatively to a request that he take into account the overlap. With the Eastern Rite Catholics most of the Orthodox/Catholic or Church of the East/Catholic divisions are blurred. With the Anglican usage rite the Anglo-Catholic/Catholic division has been blurred even more than earlier. The high-church Lutheran/Catholic division as been shown in ecumenical discussions to affect a very narrow range of issues. Therefore, I deliberately removed the capital to make a point regarding what we can expect to see him adding to the product line.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
This is the current distribution of Logos resources:
Martha,
I am curious how the current Pre-Pubs "under development" would stack up in this type of chart.
It might help some people to see Logos is still publishing "their" stuff. I am happy the spectrum is wide. If Logos only worked on my wish lists I could not keep up with production and I would miss the great Pre-Pub prices
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I sincerely appreciate your effort to include other denominations and to diffuse what would obviously become an inflammatory issue. I suspect that if you had been consulted, you would have offered a better way to roll out that job title. Fact remains.... That's the way it was presented.
Andrew Jones said:Hello everyone! My name is Andrew Jones and I'm the new Catholic Products Manager here at Logos.
And little has been done to clarify his position. I invite you to visit that thread and see if you find anything but capital C Catholic issues discussed.
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Lynden Williams said:
Please users, lets not tie up the CEO's time with theological debates, let him focus on making the best Bible software better.
Lynden why do some people feel the need to tell people how they should behave? I don't think you need to take on the role of "mother hen"0 -
MJ. Smith said:
This is the current distribution of Logos resources:
Hey, M.J., how was this chart created? Have you already assigned a denominational label to all resources? How did you do that?
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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No offense intended MJD. My wishes are in harmony with forum guidelines, and the passionate appeal of Bob P.MJD said:Lynden Williams said:Please users, lets not tie up the CEO's time with theological debates, let him focus on making the best Bible software better.
">
Lynden why do some people feel the need to tell people how they should behave? I don't think you need to take on the role of "mother hen"Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Todd Phillips said:MJ. Smith said:
This is the current distribution of Logos resources:
Hey, M.J., how was this chart created? Have you already assigned a denominational label to all resources? How did you do that?
If MJ has (already tagged resources) I would be very interested in getting that info.
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Matthew C Jones said:
If MJ has (already tagged resources) I would be very interested in getting that info.
I just used the figures shown on the Logos products pages.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Lynden Williams said:
No offense intended MJD. My wishes are in harmony with forum guidelines, and the passionate appeal of Bob P.MJD said:Lynden Williams said:Please users, lets not tie up the CEO's time with theological debates, let him focus on making the best Bible software better.
">
Lynden why do some people feel the need to tell people how they should behave? I don't think you need to take on the role of "mother hen"Lynden I didn't take offense, but thank you. But, I feel like Bob can defend himself. I get tired of all of the "kiss up" comments. He is extremely bright, and he expresses himself very well in his posts.
Bob did make a mistake with a post, and many people took offense. I understood what he was trying to say, so I just stood back and did not react immediately. But, I must admit I tend to agree with some of the concerns. The appointment of a Catholic Resource Manager stung some people a bit. I know some felt like he was "selling out" from his core group, and he did it all for the sake of revenues.
However, I believe Bob is a solid "Christian man", he came back and apologized for his "jet lag" stage of mind and his flipped comments. I do agree he gets to make the rules, that is obvious. But, many of us have made a BIG commitment to Logos and we deserve a level of mutual respect. I for one have over $20,000 invested into Logos and I have strong interest in wanting/needing it to succeed.
In closing, I welcome all my fellow followers of Christ that are Catholics to Logos. However, I don't think there should be a special Catholic position, it just feels like we are separating them from us.
I want to follow Christ and not a denomination, are you with me?
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MJ. Smith Posted the current distribution of Logos resources – As always, thanks for the post.
I wonder, other than the slice we are in how many slices each of us know a lot about? [And is what we ‘know’ ‘factual’ as seen by members of that slice?]
As I have stated somewhere on this forum – I learn the most when I can see the entire thought process of the other slice. Then when I can figure out where the other slice made its mistake [imho] I can then address that ‘error’. [On the other hand what I see as the ‘error’ just might be what they see as the main point of their beliefs [that is they see me going wrong at that same point I see them going wrong]] [Others do not want to be exposed to ‘heresy’ – which maybe what I am reviewing] With more books in their slice I might learn that what I see as ‘error’ is the key point in their system – Now I just see it as ‘error’. If I do not know what they truly teach I cannot lead them out of their ‘error’ because they will always be able to say that that is not what they teach – And I might lose the opportunity to teach them the truth because I looked dumb the first time I tried.
My current library is lacking some slices. For example, the religion ZZZZ; We currently have zero commentaries to explain their beliefs from their view point. [We might have some warning us of their ‘heresies’ but those are written by their enemies] So how do we learn to show the ‘errors’ in the ZZZZ system – other than saying that they are wrong only because we know that we are correct. [Circular Logic at its best – The old “”A is right and B is wrong because A says so””
Next Question: Do we also get a list of which of the 14,000 resources fall into which slice? [List needed to keep ‘heresies’ out of our library] [Or list needed so that we can create collections for each slice – search only slice ZZZZ] [Or is Logos going to tell us what slice the resource is in?]0 -
MJ. Smith said:Matthew C Jones said:
If MJ has (already tagged resources) I would be very interested in getting that info.
I just used the figures shown on the Logos products pages.
Ah, Okay. I'm wondering if you took into account that resources are tagged with multiple groups?
- The Calvin and the History of Calvinism Collection is in both the Reformed and Presbyterian groups.
- The John Piper Manuscript Collection is in both Evangelical and Reformed groups.
- Rick Brannan's Historic Creeds and Confessions is tagged Reformed, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Anglican, and Catholic.
- etc..
I guess it may not matter that much, but it may have the effect of inflating certain groups (evangelical and reformed particularly) relative to the others.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:
Ah, Okay. I'm wondering if you took into account that resources are tagged with multiple groups?
To avoid controversy, I used the figures as Logos presents them - I simply copied them to Excel and made a chart out of it.The figures only show the top n denominations - I know, for example, that there are Restoration resources in Logos and they don't appear in the statistics.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What about the groups that consider themselves aligned with a slice...but Logos may not see it that way. None of this evaluation would be necessary Had the "us and them" division not transpired.Todd Phillips said:I guess it may not matter that much, but it may have the effect of inflating certain groups (evangelical and reformed particularly) relative to the others.
MJD said:However, I don't think there should be a special Catholic position, it just feels like we are separating them from us.
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Schezic said:Michael Anda said:
What's with all the little weenies we've been seeing of late, anyway?
I was curious as to who would respond.
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Michael Anda said:
What's with all the little weenies we've been seeing of late, anyway?
Well, Now you know.Michael Anda said:I was curious as to who would respond.
Bill Coley said:there are times when we need a mirror held up. This is one of those times.
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Schezic said:
A line was crossed when a position was created just to cater to the whims of...
It might help to shed light on what we're thinking at Logos if I mention that we created around 100 product manager positions. The idea was that we'd group like resources together so that someone could develop (or bring) expertise in a content area and help select works, build relationships with publishers, understand the consumers in that category, blog and promote works within the category, and increase sales. That way, as we moved over 10,000 resources in the library, there'd be someone focused on every area, instead of one marketing team trying to do a good job for every type of book, when they might not know as much in an area.
Of course we couldn't afford to hire 100 product managers at once, and not every category warranted a full-time hire. So we put categories into hierarchies, assigned multiple categories to one person, and even created some "part time" product manager categories using people who had other "day jobs" within the company.
The idea is that as we grow, product categories become bigger and eventually there's one person for each category, and they're each doing well enough to support that person and more. (I think this is also called Business 102, though we were late to this class.)
You've already seen some of the part-time product managers at work, in blog posts like:
http://blog.logos.com/2010/06/biblical_languages_and_bible_software/
...from our "Product Manager for Systematic Theology." (Still, alas, a part-time position.)
Here's a sample of the product manager positions we created; these are all within the "Academic" hierarchy, and of course all these are handled by just a few people:
Old Testament
o Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic
o OT Textual Criticism
o Septuagint
o Scholarly OT commentaries
o Academic Monographs
New Testament
o NT Greek
o NT Textual Criticism
o Scholarly NT Commentaries
o Academic Monographs
Apocrypha
Pseudepigrapha
Ancient Near East
o Ugaritic
o Hebrew and NW Semitic Inscriptions
Second Temple Judaism
o Philo
o Josephus
o Dead Sea Scrolls
Rabbinica
Patristics
o Apostolic Fathers
Church History
Theology
o Historical Theology
o Biblical Theology
o Systematic Theology
o Practical Theology
Study Helps
o Expositional Commentaries
o Devotional Commentaries
o Reference Works
Academic Tools
o Hebrew and Greek Video Tools
Journals
Classics
o Greek Classics
o Latin Classics
So in the future, I hope we'll grow to have a Ugaritic Product Manager. I hope he/she will know a lot about Ugaritic resources, but I imagine he/she won't actually be Ugaritic, the civilization being dead and all. But we also had a line item for Catholic Product Manager and imagined that role being shared with the roles of Liturgical, Lectionary Resources, Patristics, and Church History Product Manager.You can see how we hired Andrew, who knows Catholic resources and is a church history scholar. Clearly we made a mistake in the way we introduced our new product manager, and even in letting him write his own introduction on the blog without having more grounding in Logos' history and perspective. This was my fault, not his. We were working our way through a list, wearing our "librarian" hat, as described in my "What kind of books..." forum post. I apologize.We're no more trying to turn our users Catholic than Ugaritic or Rabbinic; hopefully you'll meet those product managers in the future, though with different introductions! :-) We are trying to build a library. And, as I made clear in my long "What kind" post, if we want to turn our users anywhere, it's towards the Word. Everything else is just a shelf of books.-- Bob
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fwiw: This post was being composed while Bob posted his. I was responding to MJD without benefit of Bob's post. (Thanks Bob.)
MJD said:In closing, I welcome all my fellow followers of Christ that are Catholics to Logos. However, I don't think there should be a special Catholic position, it just feels like we are separating them from us.
The last two years we had a July 4th special sale (celebrating "Independence Day" of the USA.) This year we did not. Are there overly-sensitive Logos users who take offense at the "American" partisanship of such a sale? On the other hand, Logos asked women what could be done to address the disparity of predominantly male users versus the miniscule female user population. I heard more outcry against the "Godly Women's Collection" than I did about that survey.
If you are going to open a diner and want Catholic customers to feel
welcome, you might want to add fish to the Friday menu. (Do they still
observe that?[:D] ) Nobody is forcing the Protestants or vegetarians to
eat the fish. Nobody will prevent them from ordering the fish eitherLogos has a track record of reaching out to meet user's needs. I see no difference between Logos hiring a Catholic Product Manager and my church hiring a Youth Minister, a Seniors Minister and a Singles Minister. (I am not a youth, single or senior.)
It is good for Logos to
- have an Academic Sales department.
- have Joe Miller as a liaison to pastors.
- publish the Evangelcal Exegetical Commentary
- have Dr Michael Heisler & Johnny Cisneros give language instruction
- publish Steve Runge's discourse analysis materials
- bring Stephen Smith on board (Facebook Like-A-Thon & Forum Week)
- develop iOS & Android apps
- create Vyrso
- hire Andrew Jones as Catholic Product Manager
- Some would even say Logos 4 Mac is a good idea. [:^)]
Each of these good moves could "alienate" someone emotionally. The intention is only to meet a need.. Not everyone has the same needs.
Back to the July 4th sale: I would welcome a sale for each & every nation's "Independence Day" [;)] Don't want anyone to feel left out.
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Now, You have gotten to the heart of the issue. I appreciate you doing so,and commend you for it. I will attempt to abstain from further comment.Bob Pritchett said:So in the future, I hope we'll grow to have a Ugaritic Product Manager. I hope he/she will know a lot about Ugaritic resources, but I imagine he/she won't actually be Ugaritic, the civilization being dead and all. But we also had a line item for Catholic Product Manager and imagined that role being shared with the roles of Liturgical, Lectionary Resources, Patristics, and Church History Product Manager.
You can see how we hired Andrew, who knows Catholic resources and is a church history scholar. Clearly we made a mistake in the way we introduced our new product manager, and even in letting him write his own introduction on the blog without having more grounding in Logos' history and perspective. This was my fault, not his. We were working our way through a list, wearing our "librarian" hat, as described in my "What kind of books..." forum post. I apologize.
We're no more trying to turn our users Catholic than Ugaritic or Rabbinic; hopefully you'll meet those product managers in the future, though with different introductions! :-) We are trying to build a library. And, as I made clear in my long "What kind" post, if we want to turn our users anywhere, it's towards the Word. Everything else is just a shelf of books.
-- Bob0 -
Schezic said:Michael Anda said:
What's with all the little weenies we've been seeing of late, anyway?
Well, Now you know.Michael Anda said:I was curious as to who would respond.
Bill Coley said:there are times when we need a mirror held up. This is one of those times.
I will attempt to abstain from further comment.
Schezic,
You have now twice paired Mr. Anda's question about "weenies" with my comment about mirrors of accountability. Let me be the first to applaud your decision to "attempt to abstain from further comment."
Bill
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The connection certainly made sense to me.Bill Coley said:You have now twice paired Mr. Anda's question about "weenies" with my comment about mirrors
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Matthew C Jones said:
Back to the July 4th sale: I would welcome a sale for each & every nation's "Independence Day"
Don't want anyone to feel left out.Gee thanks Matthew, you are so gracious. Mine is on Sunday. We will be breaking ground for a new church. Unfortunately, I am tapped out to take advantage of your (Logos) generous offer it they were to implement it. Maybe next year.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Matthew C Jones said:Mark said:
To be clear… I respect authority figures. Within the church I submit to the elders, outside the church I submit to all governing authorities, just as the bible commands me to. I seek unity around the authority of the bible, hence the reason that I have spent so much money on your software, and why I study any chance I get. Lastly, I have never “split” a church, or caused dissention in a church.
Mark,
If everyone were like you...
I agree with Mark. Bob can open the door wider for others without slamming our fingers in it.
Bob's post was pugnacious and offensive to the majority of Protestant Logos users. I just felt poked in the eye and now have negative, resentful feelings toward a company I like and a product I use daily. I'll let it roll off and continue as I have, but this was not good marketing.
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Welcome to the forum, Mark. You might be a little frustrated, but you do have to admit you have a talent for them 'fightin words' ... slamming fingers, pugnacious, poked in the eye, and letting it 'roll off' (I assume a heavy punch). I did learn 'pugnacious' sounds canine-ish but turns out to be pugilistic. So, great addition.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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thanks [:$]Matthew C Jones said:have Joe Miller as a liaison to pastors.
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[C]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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What can
DMB said:...but you do have to admit you have a talent for them 'fightin words' ...
What can I say? I are a writer.
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[:#]
~
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