Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
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I have been giving a lot of thought to the Logos Pro announcement over the last week.
I was a Logos Now subscriber for a couple of years. At that point, I think software companies and consumers were trying to wrap their heads around subscription models. Perhaps, FL was too early to the subscription model with Logos Now.
But lots has changed with software and subscription models since Logos Now. This seems to be the right time for FL to push Logos Pro. I appreciate Logos wanting feedback from its customers.
I plan on subscribing to Logos Pro in the coming days. I do think $9.99 is the sweet spot for the subscription price. I get subscription fatigue. But subscription models are here to stay. Over the last few years, I have paid many subscriptions for apps. Most don't stick. i currently have subscriptions to two apps.
If I am not mistaken, one of the Logos employees mentioned an audible like plan where subscription credits could be used toward the purchase of new books. What if there was an option for subscription credits to be used in purchasing wanted feature sets. Being able to use subscription credits may solve the issue with customers wanting to own feature sets. Some features sets of Logos I use every week; others I have never used. Future feature sets that I use regularly, I want to option to own them. Subscription credits for features would give me the option to own the ones I want without having to pay for all feature sets in the future release of Logos 11.
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Daniel Norwood said:
If I am not mistaken, one of the Logos employees mentioned an audible like plan where subscription credits could be used toward the purchase of new books. What if there was an option for subscription credits to be used in purchasing wanted feature sets. Being able to use subscription credits may solve the issue with customers wanting to own feature sets. Some features sets of Logos I use every week; others I have never used. Future feature sets that I use regularly, I want to option to own them. Subscription credits for features would give me the option to own the ones I want without having to pay for all feature sets in the future release of Logos 11.
This is a good idea. Kind of a rent to own model. This would help people not feel like they're wasting money subscribing to features and then either losing them when they need to drop their subscription or having to buy them and pay for them all over again after renting them for months/years.
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scooter said:DMB said:scooter said:James Johnson said:
Specially after the selling of logos to a secular owner.
When did this happen? Who owns it now?
Scooter, you need to keep up! Last year a venture capital group bought majority share. Looking at their other investments, looks like they try to nudge smaller companies with promise, for success. Being 'secular' or 'greedy' depends ... more like Bob finally got rewarded for all those years of scrimping.
But it illustrates, that the Logos cheerleaders hopefully don't use the same rationalizing, for their 401 investments. New owners can be good. Can demand better management. And can sell to other new owners. Forever got shorter, last year.
scooter indeed needs to keep up!! Are you allowed to whisper their name here, so I can look at their other investments, as well??
Logos is now a commodity, one egg in a dozen-sized paper mache little box. You have 401's; we in Canada have RRSRs. You never buy too many small cap firms. When they fall, they fall right off the bridge.
I like 'Forever got shorter, last year.' When I was 5, we dropped down into North Dakota + turned left, coming back into Canada on the Macinac Bridge. That bridge felt forever to a 5 year old. And very, very high. When I now picture forever, that's where I am. It felt dangerous, but I knew Dad was a steady hand at the wheel.
A sub allows the owner to have less legal obligation to a participant, I would think, although I am not a lawyer.
Vik Rajagopal is the CEO of Bellingham-based Faithlife. Rajagopal took over the role from co-founder Bob Pritchett in January 2022
https://www.cascadiadaily.com/2023/jun/14/faithlife-repositions-as-its-new-ceo-marks-18-months/
Rajagopal spent 10 years at Amazon where he held leadership roles across finance, retail leadership and product management. Prior to Amazon, Rajagopal was an investment banker in Wells Fargo Securities’ middle-market group. Rajagopal earned his B.A. in History from Yale University and MBA. from the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. He serves as an advisor to Petros Network, a Christian nonprofit that equips indigenous leaders in developing nations to lift their unreached communities through spiritual, social and economic transformation.
https://rushtopress.org/9955-2/
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James Johnson said:
Vik Rajagopal is the CEO of Bellingham-based Faithlife. Rajagopal took over the role from co-founder Bob Pritchett in January 2022
Bill McCarthy has recently taken over the CEO role from Vik - he has introduced himself in the forums at https://community.logos.com/forums/t/221746.aspx
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Aaron Sauer said:Frank Sauer said:
The thing that is aggravating to me is that the point continues to be hammered by subscription supporters that this is about sustainability for Logos going forward.....
I guess I don't see how features that are being created for the subscription customers and from what it sounds like, will still be a part of the same engine, just activated by license for subscribers and not activated for those who choose not to subscribe.... Leaving non subscribers in the dark for new features.So for me - if the engine is the same, if the feature is activated for those who subscribe, I don't see how difficult it is to not punish those who choose to not subscribe by not offering the ability to purchase a license as has always existed..... If all it takes is having the license for the features, sell the feature sets as is currently - otherwise this is just a stunt to force people to subscribe to have new features - not about the customers nor sustainability....
Mark gives 5 reasons in his original post:
Logos subscriptions aren’t new. More than ten thousand people have been subscribing to Logos for nearly a decade. But we’re now embracing subscription for our software because doing so has five distinct advantages.
- New users can have much lower upfront costs and try Logos with much less commitment.
- It allows us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for a major release every two years. That’s especially important at a time of rapid technological change.
- It allows us to include features like AI, which we can’t offer permanent licenses to because of the significant ongoing costs.
- It’s a sustainable way of ensuring we can keep delivering improvements for decades to come.
- Releasing early and often significantly shortens the feedback loop, enabling us to continually tweak our improvements to ensure they’re really solving the most important things for all our customers.
And none of that explains away the fact that features already produced for the same engine are not available unless you subscribe - if it's available via a subscription license, there is no reason that it cannot be offered to everyone for purchase - common sense says it's the best of both options - keep long time customers that helped sustain Logos with their purchases in the loop and offer more for less to new customers that don't mind subscriptions.
My point AGAIN - if the features exist, work on the same engine that every users install and only need a license activated - the only reason to not offer it for purchase as well as for subscription users is to try to force users into the subscription if they'd like access to new features. Which again is punishing long time users that do not wish to subscribe.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Graham Criddle said:James Johnson said:
Vik Rajagopal is the CEO of Bellingham-based Faithlife. Rajagopal took over the role from co-founder Bob Pritchett in January 2022
Bill McCarthy has recently taken over the CEO role from Vik - he has introduced himself in the forums at https://community.logos.com/forums/t/221746.aspx
Oh wow. Sad to hear what is happening with his parents. Who is this person exactly? Never heard of him before and he mentioned that he was asked to join logos as CEO and chief chairman.
He really kustTook over like hours ago. Only has 1 forum post and his faith life account is black and don't even have a profile picture or admin logo.
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Disregard the no admin logo, just noticed he actually does have one now.
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MJ. Smith said:Frank Sauer said:
So for me - if the engine is the same, if the feature is activated for those who subscribe, I don't see how difficult it is to not punish those who choose to not subscribe by not offering the ability to purchase a license as has always existed.....
The problem is that most of the posts are speculative in the form of "If Logos does X my response will be Y" without concrete knowledge of what features will be subscription only by the fall and without concrete knowledge of what the marketing groupings and cost will be. But Logos specifically wanted to know what we would feel about it (speculation) ... so they can make rational decisions on the marketing. And they have to make their decisions before we can make ours. So we need to remember it is speculation.
My problem with some of the posts is that they seem to equate AI with chatbots which creates unrealistic expectations of the tools and that some speculation on the use of AI is taken as fact. I have reservations regarding the subscription model in terms of gifting some else with my collection. On the other hand, I have faith in the current management based on the belief that Vic was a change management leader who moved Logos from a startup model to a sustainable model. I understand why that includes subscriptions. I do not know and will not speculate how AI platforms will be funded once they reach the basic utility stage. When was the last time you thought about funding the internet infrastructure?
I understand on the AI aspect - that is the one aspect that I can understand the need for subscription. If there is ongoing cost to provide a feature through a third party service - that should be subscription based. However, not all users desire that, or find that feature worth the cost of subscription. Also, if third party service enabled features are the limited route that new features added to Logos will be tied to.... That is very short sighted and poor modeling by FL - there is a lot of room for feature improvement and addition that would not require a paid third party service and those features should be available via traditional purchase - it's not that difficult to see that a dual option purchase and subscription covers the broadest base of consumers.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
I understand on the AI aspect - that is the one aspect that I can understand the need for subscription. If there is ongoing cost to provide a feature through a third party service - that should be subscription based. However, not all users desire that, or find that feature worth the cost of subscription. Also, if third party service enabled features are the limited route that new features added to Logos will be tied to.... That is very short sighted and poor modeling by FL - there is a lot of room for feature improvement and addition that would not require a paid third party service and those features should be available via traditional purchase - it's not that difficult to see that a dual option purchase and subscription covers the broadest base of consumers.
I also wonder if it will truly generate the income they are hoping for. Just from a practical viewpoint... I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't just keep subscriptions going the whole year. Take Amazon Prime and Audible, for example... I never subscribe for a whole year. I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost. But I often subscribe to Prime for a month or two around Christmas, and occasionally when there's several Plus titles I'd like to listen to I might do a month of Audible.
I think Logos might find it will be similar. People who normally might have purchased a package with all the bells and whistles might only pay for a subscription intermittently when it suites them.
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Since input was requested, here's mine (FWIW). At this moment I will not be subscribing. I may subscribe in the future if some new feature seems worth it to me. I'm fairly adept at formulating a search that finds what I need, so at the moment the AI search is not a priority for me. I am assuming that using the subscription features means constant access to wifi for it to work. Normally that is not a problem, but I do sometimes find myself working in places without it. One of the greatest values of Logos for me is the ability to take, and use, my library anywhere I go, even if I don't have a wifi connection.
For the Logos admins who may read this post, I'm sure the decision has already been made and it is too late to pause at this point. And I understand that software people have a different take on AI. However, I would urge a long, serious look at the philosophical issues involved in linking Bible study to AI. As an academic, the uses for AI that I have seen for documents is nothing to be excited about. AI generated texts are often (maybe always) wrong about something, and users who do not have expertise in what they are looking at may accept incorrect conclusions as truth or fact. AI is also subject to cultural biases (cf. the recent Google Gemini problems). None of this should be acceptable for those who study and teach the Bible.
Beyond that, however, is the problem of conclusions, or summaries, without the intellectual rigor required to get them. I read one post on here where a Logos user said he had invested in all kinds of datasets and still could not translate Greek. That's because translating Greek is an acquired skill which is the result of studying the language. The same is true for attaining a mastery of theological literature, any given Bible topic or passage, etc. The idea of "pressing a button" and getting instant analysis bypasses the crucial step of acquiring the skills that make using those results effective. Integrating AI into Logos encourages all of this. I would much rather read an article or chapter and know for myself what it said, than "know" it from an AI-generated summary.
I have firsthand experience with students who are increasingly using AI to complete assignments. They want a good grade but they don't want to put in the personal effort it takes to earn one. They see AI as a way of eliminating the hard work of reading and thinking about what they read. I see the linking of Logos with AI in a similar way. It encourages presentation without learning. It discourages actual thinking. If AI goes in the direction in which it seems to be headed, my fear is that we're in the process of creating a generation of people who will lack critical thinking skills because the AI shortcut gave them their information. Is that the kind of lawyers, or doctors, or preachers, we want? And should Logos be contributing to this?
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David McClister said:
. If AI goes in the direction in which it seems to be headed, my fear is that we're in the process of creating a generation of people who will lack critical thinking skills because the AI shortcut gave them their information. Is that the kind of lawyers, or doctors, or preachers, we want? And should Logos be contributing to this?
Is it like boats, and people don't bother to learn to swim. Until a problem?
I agree with your thinking. But I suspect that horse left the barn with social media ... and your world still has some control (academia).
And I've thought for some time, Logos' penchant for emphasizing bits and pieces, while little emphasis on author-meaning and technique is selling to doctrinal worlds where that's the drive (I grew up in it).
I've had 'AI' embedded in my Bible software for many years (neurals, genetic optimization), but the idea is to see the forest, not the trees. What was the author seeking and how was he creating it.
Logos 'could' use AI for more than a crutch (aka time-saver). But I suspect the clock is running out.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark, first I want to thank you for all the time and feedback you have provided. It is appreciated. One of my biggest concerns is the unknown price of the subscription for people who don't own the full feature set. I've been using Logos since libronix, quickverse, and wordsearch, and I've paid for many updates over the years, but I don't currently have the L10 full feature set. In fact, it is over $500 for me to upgrade. Since the $9.99 is a heavily discounted price, I'm assuming the cost will be much higher. Which again, will put it out of reach for typical pastors. I understand many people have invested many thousands of dollars in their packages, but I would urge you to think about the typical pastor, who is pastoring a church of 200 people or less, and is struggling to get by. $9.99 is reasonable, but if we start talking $30 or $40 per month, then there is no chance for the average small town pastor to afford this.
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Michael Morris said:
One of my biggest concerns is the unknown price of the subscription for people who don't own the full feature set
I understand and sympathize with your point. Nonetheless, Logos will have to set their price point at a level that ensures sustainability. Neither of us know exactly what that price point is, but hopefully we can trust them to set it in a way that is profitable yet fair. Considering the fact that you have not felt the need to upgrade to the full feature set of Logos 10, it seems you have no need for the latest bells and whistles. I would assume most pastors operating on a low income may feel similarly. Therefore my encouragement to you would simply be to continue as you have in the past. Purchase the features you would like to utilize, and abstain from purchasing those you would not like to use, knowing you can purchase them in the future if you wish. There will be no need to subscribe unless you want regular feature updates and the use of AI. This, at least, is my hope and expectation. We can expect many more details to be released in the coming weeks and months.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Cant thank You enough. I have tons of respect for how you’re handling the announcements, criticism and questions.
I did not see this question answered anywhere and was wondering,
how will user created content be handled under the subscription plan? For instance, it would be hard for me to recommend a product for someone to use in sermon creation if the potential to review their notes and sermon rough drafts disappears once they no longer subscribe to a particular tool set. Might that be a possibility with some of the content creation tools that are only available in the subscription based services?
Thanks again.
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Ryan said:
how will user created content be handled under the subscription plan? For instance, it would be hard for me to recommend a product for someone to use in sermon creation if the potential to review their notes and sermon rough drafts disappears once they no longer subscribe to a particular toolset. Might that be a possibility with some of the content creation tools that are only available in the subscription-based services?
Unfortunately, that is how it works at the moment. Imagine you don't own a feature set and instead subscribe to Sermon Builder. If so, you will lose access to your sermon documents when your subscription expires. We wouldn't delete the document, and resubscribing would make it available again.
This doesn't apply to all document types because many documents (including notes) are available as part of the free edition, which doesn't require a subscription.
We know that this is far from ideal, and it is something we'll be looking at shortly.
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David McClister said:
For the Logos admins who may read this post, I'm sure the decision has already been made and it is too late to pause at this point. And I understand that software people have a different take on AI. However, I would urge a long, serious look at the philosophical issues involved in linking Bible study to AI.
We're in the final stages of editing a post for our blog about our approach to technology in Bible Study, including AI. I'm hopeful it will go out sometime next week.
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Hi Mark, Do you have any plans to make the Bible verses in AL hoverable?
Blessings in Christ.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Unfortunately, that is how it works at the moment. Imagine you don't own a feature set and instead subscribe to Sermon Builder. If so, you will lose access to your sermon documents when your subscription expires. We wouldn't delete the document, and resubscribing would make it available again.
This doesn't apply to all document types because many documents (including notes) are available as part of the free edition, which doesn't require a subscription.
We know that this is far from ideal, and it is something we'll be looking at shortly.
Perhaps the sermon documents could be read-only and exportable for non-subscribers who don't own a feature set with sermon builder.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Ryan said:
how will user created content be handled under the subscription plan? For instance, it would be hard for me to recommend a product for someone to use in sermon creation if the potential to review their notes and sermon rough drafts disappears once they no longer subscribe to a particular toolset. Might that be a possibility with some of the content creation tools that are only available in the subscription-based services?
Unfortunately, that is how it works at the moment. Imagine you don't own a feature set and instead subscribe to Sermon Builder. If so, you will lose access to your sermon documents when your subscription expires. We wouldn't delete the document, and resubscribing would make it available again.
This doesn't apply to all document types because many documents (including notes) are available as part of the free edition, which doesn't require a subscription.
We know that this is far from ideal, and it is something we'll be looking at shortly.
Wait, so we will have different subscriptions so for example if I'm not a pastor (I'm not) and don't ever use sermon builder (I don't) I'll have options to choose other features ? If that's the case I like that idea.
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While I greatly appreciate FaithLife and Logos, there are some concerning points that I do have.
AI really is not "intelligent" since it employs a machine language learning model which then uses key words to summarize language without an actual understanding of the document it is working through. While the algorithm can lift ideas, the language employed to describe or summarize an idea can be slanted depending upon the programmer. This can be seen by comparing Google's AI, ChatGTP and Bing on difficult subjects. The ethical dilema then becomes will FL AI be geared towards it's largest users such as Baptists, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. Using AI for spiritual content if there are errors in the output of results or programmer bias then colors the spiritual nourishment we are trying to feed our flocks.
While AI is very exciting for me personally to see with Logos as I discussed with some friends a month back, bias in programming is a potential concern along with the many others voiced here in the forum.
Regarding a subscription model. IF it is only to use a ChatGTP AI alongside Logos, that might be alright IF AT THE SAME TIME there is continued development of new features that are offered as part of say Logos 11. With over 5,000 resources and as a missionary on a limited budget, I would not pay for a subscription to "rent" books if the majority are already owned. Possibly, I would try out AI for $10 a month, but I prefer to buy an outright license in place of renting a temporary one.
Thanks for reading the input.
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While I greatly appreciate FaithLife and Logos, there are some concerning points that I do have.
AI really is not "intelligent" since it employs a machine language learning model which then uses key words to summarize language without an actual understanding of the document it is working through. While the algorithm can lift ideas, the language employed to describe or summarize an idea can be slanted depending upon the programmer. This can be seen by comparing Google's AI, ChatGTP and Bing on difficult subjects. The ethical dilema then becomes will FL AI be geared towards it's largest users such as Baptists, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. Using AI for spiritual content if there are errors in the output of results or programmer bias then colors the spiritual nourishment we are trying to feed our flocks.
While AI is very exciting for me personally to see with Logos as I discussed with some friends a month back, bias in programming is a potential concern along with the many others voiced here in the forum.
Regarding a subscription model. IF it is only to use a ChatGTP AI alongside Logos, that might be alright IF AT THE SAME TIME there is continued development of new features that are offered as part of say Logos 11. With over 5,000 resources and as a missionary on a limited budget, I would not pay for a subscription to "rent" books if the majority are already owned. Possibly, I would try out AI for $10 a month, but I prefer to buy an outright license in place of renting a temporary one.
Thanks for reading the input.
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Brian Nacy said:
AI really is not "intelligent" since it employs a machine language learning model which then uses key words to summarize language without an actual understanding of the document it is working through.
Thanks for your feedback. AI is a critically important topic, and as Mark said we'll be sharing more of our philosophy and the guiding principles that have shaped our use of it. We've thought carefully and deeply about AI, and we're laboring to make sure our use of it is responsible, faithful to Scripture, and helpful to users. There is risk with every technology that it will result in abuse, laziness, etc. We acknowledge that and want to encourage honorable use to help you get greater depth and insight faster.
Brian Nacy said:While the algorithm can lift ideas, the language employed to describe or summarize an idea can be slanted depending upon the programmer.
Brian Nacy said:Using AI for spiritual content if there are errors in the output of results or programmer bias then colors the spiritual nourishment we are trying to feed our flocks.
Bias can be a problem in the output of generative AI, yes, but it can also be a problem in human-authored content (from which LMMs are built). That's why we need to be Bereans and dig into the sources and check for ourselves. To facilitate that, we plan to (a) always disclose when we're showing you AI-generated content and (b) point you to the sources from which that content was generated so you can check the output for yourself, dig deeper, etc.
Lots more to come on this really important topic. Thanks for engaging.
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I am also in the camp of preferring to purchase the feature set. I try to avoid subscriptions now that I am planning to be on a fixed income. I can better plan to make a one-time purchase (birthday, Christmas present, etc.) instead of the dripping drain of yet another subscription. Thanks for listening.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Ryan said:
how will user created content be handled under the subscription plan? For instance, it would be hard for me to recommend a product for someone to use in sermon creation if the potential to review their notes and sermon rough drafts disappears once they no longer subscribe to a particular toolset. Might that be a possibility with some of the content creation tools that are only available in the subscription-based services?
Unfortunately, that is how it works at the moment. Imagine you don't own a feature set and instead subscribe to Sermon Builder. If so, you will lose access to your sermon documents when your subscription expires.
In other words, there is no backward compatibility ... it would be appropriate to have the option to save a sermon document in previous formats, such as Logos 10, even though certain functions may be lost. The user should have the option to build and save the sermon document in the format which he could use with the feature set in his L10 version feature set of Logos
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:We wouldn't delete the document, and resubscribing would make it available again.
This doesn't apply to all document types because many documents (including notes) are available as part of the free edition, which doesn't require a subscription.
Does this mean, a user can use sermon building features currently available in L10 feature sets while being subscribed to LP (in order to produce sermon documents usable after unsubscribing) ... sort of like the situation with some document types produced with features available without subscription? Or will only the new subscription version of the feature be available to do such work (and losing those sermon documents after unsubscribing)?
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Seems like no one wants the subscription model. I wonder how they will move forward.
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
it would be appropriate to have the option to save a sermon document in previous formats, such as Logos 10,
Appropriate but also very costly and with a comparatively high probability of adding errors into the code. I would suggest a short grace period after the subscription drops in which the user is reminded of the potential loss of data and encouraged to export it to another platform.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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James Johnson said:
Seems like no one wants the subscription model. I wonder how they will move forward.
It will be interesting to see.
There does seem to be a few that would want it (I'm not one of those).
I would hope that Logos would go both routes - make it available for purchase and as a subscription, as well as having different options. Someone who's focus is preaching is going to have different wants from someone who is just doing their own studying.
I can see how a subscription model could make sense for those who are new to Logos... let them get a whole package with all the bells and whistles and see what Logos can do. They may decide they just want to go a head and purchase it at that point. It could also be useful for someone doing some research and wanting temporary access to some books, but not wanting to purchase them as they might not have a need to use them again.
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Yeah, I was hoping they would eventually go that route. I never use any sermon builder or anything to do with that aspect of logos. So having it is just useless to me really.
Would be nice to get a subscription with all the big name commentaries like nivapplication, TDOT etc.
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MJ. Smith said:Wolfgang Schneider said:
it would be appropriate to have the option to save a sermon document in previous formats, such as Logos 10,
Appropriate but also very costly and with a comparatively high probability of adding errors into the code. I would suggest a short grace period after the subscription drops in which the user is reminded of the potential loss of data and encouraged to export it to another platform.
But export those documents how and to what platform? Such "export" possibility is in essence what I was thinking when mentioning the backward compatibility. It really is irrelevant whether I want to do that 5 minutes after finishing the document or during a grace period after unsubscribing.
Perhaps I didn't get what you have in mind with "encourage the user to export to another platform" ?Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Donnie said:
I can see how a subscription model could make sense for those who are new to Logos... let them get a whole package with all the bells and whistles and see what Logos can do. They may decide they just want to go a head and purchase it at that point. It could also be useful for someone doing some research and wanting temporary access to some books, but not wanting to purchase them as they might not have a need to use them again.
Seeing how steep the learning curve for quite a number of features is (even for users who have had experience for some time) and that some features aim at doing things with larger libraries, I wonder if the subscription model is an effective means for someone new to Logos ... getting music from all the bells and whistles may just be deafening for a newbie
The scenario of only needing the new features for a short period of time to do specific work may run into the problem mentioned above, i.e. after unsubscribing certain types of documents produced with subscription features may no longer be accessible ...
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
Perhaps I didn't get what you have in mind with "encourage the user to export to another platform" ?
Backward compatibility is a very complex and expensive process when everyone is running the same version of the code. I am suggesting a simple, inexpensive solution - export to Word (or some such) with a warning you will otherwise lose access and a grace period for the export.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What if, when a tool's subscription expires, that tool functions in a read-only mode so its documents are still readable and available in the Logos application, and available if the tool is reactivated? The print/export function should still be available while in the read-only mode in case the user needs it outside the Logos app.
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"No one..." You are clearly exaggerating. I have seen many on this thread who are for it in some shape or form--myself included.James Johnson said:Seems like no one wants the subscription model. I wonder how they will move forward.
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Why are you being hostile ?
I said "it seems like no one... "
There are thousands of users myself included who've paid BIG money for packages and feature sets and to offer them now for next to nothing seems unfair. There's a reason for such a huge outcry.
If you can't afford to pay for logos then they also have a free version, friend.
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Phil Gons (Logos) said:Brian Nacy said:
AI really is not "intelligent" since it employs a machine language learning model which then uses key words to summarize language without an actual understanding of the document it is working through.
Thanks for your feedback. AI is a critically important topic, and as Mark said we'll be sharing more of our philosophy and the guiding principles that have shaped our use of it. We've thought carefully and deeply about AI, and we're laboring to make sure our use of it is responsible, faithful to Scripture, and helpful to users. There is risk with every technology that it will result in abuse, laziness, etc. We acknowledge that and want to encourage honorable use to help you get greater depth and insight faster.
Brian Nacy said:While the algorithm can lift ideas, the language employed to describe or summarize an idea can be slanted depending upon the programmer.
Brian Nacy said:Using AI for spiritual content if there are errors in the output of results or programmer bias then colors the spiritual nourishment we are trying to feed our flocks.
Bias can be a problem in the output of generative AI, yes, but it can also be a problem in human-authored content (from which LMMs are built). That's why we need to be Bereans and dig into the sources and check for ourselves. To facilitate that, we plan to (a) always disclose when we're showing you AI-generated content and (b) point you to the sources from which that content was generated so you can check the output for yourself, dig deeper, etc.
Lots more to come on this really important topic. Thanks for engaging.
I love Phil's responses here and agree wholeheartedly. I am grateful for the humility, and clarity. Thank you.
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James Johnson said:
Why are you being hostile ?
I said "it seems like no one... "
There are thousands of users myself included who've paid BIG money for packages and feature sets and to offer them now for next to nothing seems unfair. There's a reason for such a huge outcry.
If you can't afford to pay for logos then they also have a free version, friend.
No sir. No hostility intended. It just seemed like you were implying that the overwhelming response was negative. I was just making sure that folks knew that many were in favor of the changes.
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Thanks Mark!
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Unfortunately, that is how it works at the moment. Imagine you don't own a feature set and instead subscribe to Sermon Builder. If so, you will lose access to your sermon documents when your subscription expires. We wouldn't delete the document, and resubscribing would make it available again.
That certainly makes me glad that I have always created my sermons in Word, rather than in Logos. Logos is my primary Bible Study/sermon tool by far, and I still love it after all these years. However, I always save my work to the word processor. Works well for me.
I am in process of getting rid of subscriptions, not adding them. But I realize subscirptions are the trend, and good for those that they help.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Mike Childs said:
I realize subscirptions are the trend
Not necessarily. "Subscription fatigue" is a real thing, and depending on certain things go, may end up steering the market away, not toward more subs.
At at minimum, it will likely dictate a limited number of subscriptions people are willing to maintain.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Bruce Bryan said:
James Johnson said:Why are you being hostile ?
I said "it seems like no one... "
There are thousands of users myself included who've paid BIG money for packages and feature sets and to offer them now for next to nothing seems unfair. There's a reason for such a huge outcry.
If you can't afford to pay for logos then they also have a free version, friend.
No sir. No hostility intended. It just seemed like you were implying that the overwhelming response was negative. I was just making sure that folks knew that many were in favor of the changes.
By many you mean like 10 people. The overwhelming response is that people don't want this. It's that simple.
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Tim Hensler said:
What if, when a tool's subscription expires, that tool functions in a read-only mode so its documents are still readable and available in the Logos application, and available if the tool is reactivated? The print/export function should still be available while in the read-only mode in case the user needs it outside the Logos app.
That's a good approach for content creation tools, and probably one that we'll consider moving toward (as Mark suggested earlier).
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James Johnson said:
By many you mean like 10 people. The overwhelming response is that people don't want this. It's that simple.
I think I read somewhere in this mountainous thread that Logos has over 10,000 active subscribers. I am one of them, and for now in my use case I do a combination of buying perpetual licenses and subscribe to value added services. It is not for everyone and once Logos restructures their offerings, each will need to make their own informed decisions.
Years ago, when Logos only had a Windows desktop app, a debate we had on here is whether or not the business model was perpetually sustainable by making the software freely available. In effect, it was perceived that Logos would need to sell a LOT of books, but a question was, would everyone keep buying books even after they have massive libraries. Same with even users with smaller libraries this was a question. Most of my friends who have Logos, do not actively buy books, but might 'upgrade' every two years, with a new base library and some additional features in the base software. Even if Logos' margins on public domain books are high, the question is, can you sell enough books to keep growing the tech indefinitely?
Then add to those days that we have the addition of a desktop app for the Mac, which is now outstanding. There has also been iOS apps added for iPads and iPhones. We have Android apps as well, though I am not as familiar with them. We have syncing into the cloud and a web app on top of that. I literally could stop spending a penny more on Logos, and use all these 'free' tools and services for the rest of my life. I could argue (and would), that I have spent a small fortune on my library, but there are a lot of other users out there that may not and there will still be bills that come every day to keep and maintain all this.
And of course, we are now talking about AI. I personally am very excited about it. I use it in Obsidian and it's version of smart searches and connections are very powerful. Logos would be crazy to not embrace this more, whilst understanding that not everyone will use it and some need offline access. This tech currently is costly to run due to its heavy processing requirements, so can you sell enough books regularly to make it available to users at no additional cost? (I am purposely not using the word free, because nothing is free)
Another current Bible software product has gone another route. They charge for the software and I think to upgrade in their last two year cycle, I spent about $50. Very reasonable and no one is going to fuss about that. Yet, the amount of changes that come every two years to the platform is very, very minimal. In their case, they too have added desktop apps for both platforms, they have mobile apps which are languishing and have been struggling for literally years now to produce a web app version and a robust syncing solution. It needs lots and lots of investment just to get current.
In the background, we have the ominous cloud that we lost QuickVerse, WordSearch and Bible Works. Losing Bible Works was particularly disturbing. Anyone remember the Parson's STEP bible format? It's dead. PC Study Bible is all but dead and the free Bible software market has nibbled away at this space, because a lot of users just want a basic digital study Bible to occasionally use or consult. Advanced Bible study software is a niche market, and one that will rightfully continue to want the latest resources and tech, but there is this big legacy machine to maintain and advance.
So in my view, this is Logos' pathway to walk. I would be more concerned if they just continued to do the same thing over and over. They have to try some new things to generate investment. It would seem to me that they are dropping a lot of activities to focus on this core product, which is good. Now if they can restructure things to satisfy the current support base whilst following through on their commitment to perpetually maintain their now massive suite of software and resources, whilst pushing forward to developing more value, they will stay in business. Otherwise, I think we have examples of other companies that are no longer with us to look to.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:James Johnson said:
By many you mean like 10 people. The overwhelming response is that people don't want this. It's that simple.
I think I read somewhere in this mountainous thread that Logos has over 10,000 active subscribers. I am one of them, and for now in my use case I do a combination of buying perpetual licenses and subscribe to value added services. It is not for everyone and once Logos restructures their offerings, each will need to make their own informed decisions.
Years ago, when Logos only had a Windows desktop app, a debate we had on here is whether or not the business model was perpetually sustainable by making the software freely available. In effect, it was perceived that Logos would need to sell a LOT of books, but a question was, would everyone keep buying books even after they have massive libraries. Same with even users with smaller libraries this was a question. Most of my friends who have Logos, do not actively buy books, but might 'upgrade' every two years, with a new base library and some additional features in the base software. Even if Logos' margins on public domain books are high, the question is, can you sell enough books to keep growing the tech indefinitely?
Then add to those days that we have the addition of a desktop app for the Mac, which is now outstanding. There has also been iOS apps added for iPads and iPhones. We have Android apps as well, though I am not as familiar with them. We have syncing into the cloud and a web app on top of that. I literally could stop spending a penny more on Logos, and use all these 'free' tools and services for the rest of my life. I could argue (and would), that I have spent a small fortune on my library, but there are a lot of other users out there that may not and there will still be bills that come every day to keep and maintain all this.
And of course, we are now talking about AI. I personally am very excited about it. I use it in Obsidian and it's version of smart searches and connections are very powerful. Logos would be crazy to not embrace this more, whilst understanding that not everyone will use it and some need offline access. This tech currently is costly to run due to its heavy processing requirements, so can you sell enough books regularly to make it available to users at no additional cost? (I am purposely not using the word free, because nothing is free)
Another current Bible software product has gone another route. They charge for the software and I think to upgrade in their last two year cycle, I spent about $50. Very reasonable and no one is going to fuss about that. Yet, the amount of changes that come every two years to the platform is very, very minimal. In their case, they too have added desktop apps for both platforms, they have mobile apps which are languishing and have been struggling for literally years now to produce a web app version and a robust syncing solution. It needs lots and lots of investment just to get current.
In the background, we have the ominous cloud that we lost QuickVerse, WordSearch and Bible Works. Losing Bible Works was particularly disturbing. Anyone remember the Parson's STEP bible format? It's dead. PC Study Bible is all but dead and the free Bible software market has nibbled away at this space, because a lot of users just want a basic digital study Bible to occasionally use or consult. Advanced Bible study software is a niche market, and one that will rightfully continue to want the latest resources and tech, but there is this big legacy machine to maintain and advance.
So in my view, this is Logos' pathway to walk. I would be more concerned if they just continued to do the same thing over and over. They have to try some new things to generate investment. It would seem to me that they are dropping a lot of activities to focus on this core product, which is good. Now if they can restructure things to satisfy the current support base whilst following through on their commitment to perpetually maintain their now massive suite of software and resources, whilst pushing forward to developing more value, they will stay in business. Otherwise, I think we have examples of other companies that are no longer with us to look to.
I don't have an issue with subscriptions. I have subed to faith life connect essentials for a while. Now. My issue is that the subscriptions are based on the features, and I'm worried that they won't make them buyable.
When it comes to believing if they can or can't sustain by doing this... Well go take a look at their current job offers salaries. Over 200k. If they can pay people 200k a year plus huge bennifits then I think they're doing fine. 9
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James Johnson said:
When it comes to believing if they can or can't sustain by doing this... Well go take a look at their current job offers salaries. Over 200k. If they can pay people 200k a year plus huge bennifits then I think they're doing fine.
If you want experienced software engineers, you have to pay their market value. I don't think looking at salaries without that context is very helpful. Logos salaries are not out of line with what similar employees would make elsewhere.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Ryan said:
how will user created content be handled under the subscription plan? For instance, it would be hard for me to recommend a product for someone to use in sermon creation if the potential to review their notes and sermon rough drafts disappears once they no longer subscribe to a particular toolset. Might that be a possibility with some of the content creation tools that are only available in the subscription-based services?
Unfortunately, that is how it works at the moment. Imagine you don't own a feature set and instead subscribe to Sermon Builder. If so, you will lose access to your sermon documents when your subscription expires. We wouldn't delete the document, and resubscribing would make it available again.
This doesn't apply to all document types because many documents (including notes) are available as part of the free edition, which doesn't require a subscription.
We know that this is far from ideal, and it is something we'll be looking at shortly.
I applaud your transparency and willingness to tackle the challenges head on.
I think permanent access to my own thoughts and notes would be an absolute hard line when deciding which tools to invest in for ministry and academics.
I’ll be praying for wisdom for your team to find a solution that is both fiscally profitable and practical for the ministry.
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Ryan said:
I think permanent access to my own thoughts and notes would be an absolute hard line when deciding which tools to invest in for ministry and academics.
One simple solution would be to provide an option for exporting all notes. As far as I know there are currently limitations for how many notes can be exported at once (I haven't used this feature yet). But it seems that before stripping away content from users who choose to pause or cancel their subscription and thus lose access to notes or sermons, Logos should offer the option to easily export them all to Word or pdf. This is pretty basic functionality these days.
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Another solution is to make them "read-only" if you cancel your subscription, in the way PDFS are handled in Adobe Acrobat Reader.
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James Johnson said:
Wait, so we will have different subscriptions so for example if I'm not a pastor (I'm not) and don't ever use sermon builder (I don't) I'll have options to choose other features ?
Logos Pro (tier 3) is aimed at Pastors and it seems you will have 3 other tiers to choose from, but tier 4 will likely have the same features.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Hi everyone - There's clearly a wide ranging debate about many topics associated with the proposed change and what customers might expect going forward. FWIW here are my own thoughts.
As a customer for many years, I really value the Logos software and resources I've accumulated and am likely to continue adding to my library of something over 18,000 books in the future. My consistent priorities over the years have been to:
(a) Always purchase the full feature set to ensure I own the most complete form of the software;
(b) Subscribe to Faithlife Connect (without library) so that I will receive new features as they arise - and until purchasing the feature set to own. While the Connect classic ebooks, courses and discounts are important, they are not my first priority; and
(c) Acquisition of appropriate resources to meet my interests and to ensure an effective database.
Some people might argue that in buying the full features as well as having a Connect subscription, I am paying twice for the same features. However, my objective is to be as up to date as possible at any time and to know that if at any rime I wish to cancel a subscription, I have fully functioning software to my satisfaction.
I do not wish to have a feature to the software that is solely available by subscription.
If Artificial Intelligence (AI) based features are to be made available only by subscription, then I would seriously question my need for that feature. If it were available by one-off (life time license?), then I would consider buying that feature as an integrated part of the software whether or not it was essential to how I actually use the software.
I'm not a fan of AI and have real concerns as to how it might be used by pastors, seminaries, the media, government and employers. This means its important for me to know where Faithlife gets its AI technology, who their partners are and how that impacts the Logos software and myself as a user. My concerns about AI do not mean that I wouldn't try it out, but given my preference to own features, I'm less likely to enter into a long term subscription.
I would like Faithlife to make a full feature set available for purchase (at least annually) on an ongoing basis. This is something I would buy given my stated priorities.
In relation to Faithlife Connect, I would prefer that this service continue in some form and include feature updates - if necessary confined to non-AI related features if Faithlife insists on anything to do with AI being on a separate subscription.
I'm confident Faithlife will be flexible in developing options to satisfy as many customers as possible, particularly those who have been with the company for a long time.
Keep well
Paul
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Paul said:
Hi everyone ...
A good evaluation.
I really wonder at the AI part. I do AI but strictly analytics. But having watched Christian .... hi, Christian, I'm impressed by you ... and hopeful. I just think there's too much reliance on commentaries .. and thense the new commentary ... AI (albeit, it's a sophisticated summarizing). It's not good, I should 'manage' others' studying. But I don't think this will turn out well. An author is an author.
But good points, Paul.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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