How do I find this Data?

I have been a logos user for years. When I first brought in the system, It cost what was then, a lot of money. I still think it is a great system, but it is hugely complex. That complexity leads straight to frustration. The moment I think I can see a way through, then I discover that further progress is going to cost an arm and a leg. Another up-grade will be just round the corner and although my books might be time-less, if I fall for the new features, I will need a new mortgage. Questions that have stumped me include:

Where do I look up detailed answers to queries about the various Datasets?
Is there somewhere that I can look to see precisely what each Dataset can do
is there somewhere that I can look to see what resources one needs to have for the Dataset to shine

I have maps and altas add-ons but if click on 'Atlas' under tools, it immediately becomes clear that there are none of the necessary resources required to run the Tool. I find this a common outcome with trying to use various tools; frustrating beyond words.

Ross F Downes

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Doc B

I find this a common outcome with trying to use various tools; frustrating beyond words.

First, welcome to the forums!

Second, reflecting on your post, welcome to Logos.

I've only been a Logos user since L3, about 8 years or so. One thing I've learned about Logos is, frustration is one of the features you get with the software. I groused about lack of, or poor, training for several years, and I didn't even get a t-shirt for my efforts. Only recently have training videos gotten any more in-depth than marketing tools, and for these I am greatful. But even so, to get any depth of training, you will have to pay more of your money (if there's any left) for aftermarket stuff. I've found a couple of sources that aren't terribly expensive and are very good. One can be found on Udemy.com and the other is at learnlogos.com.

Mo Proctor's stuff is also good, and the Camp Logos events are excellent. But by the time you pay to fly out to one, pay for a motel and meals, and pay the fee for the event, you'll have dropped another thousand bucks. (I did it once, back in L4 days...it was worth it but I can't afford to ever do it again.)

I've quit dumping money into new stuff and try to use what I have. I wish I'd known that accumulating resources wouldn't improve my Christian walk a few years earlier...I'd have saved some money. If you are growing so frustrated you are ready to quit, I recommend you do the same (stop spending...it adds tremendously to the frustration). I was able to get the L7 starter feature set with no resources for about twenty bucks. That'll keep me going a couple more years till the next upgrade (at least).

If you have some specific questions about resources, etc., this is a good place to get help. It is free, and the MVPs are very helpful and know their stuff. The only cost is putting up with some curmudgeons, but they are easily ignored.

Again, welcome to the forums, and good luck with all of it.

DMB

https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=title:datasets&start=0&sort=rel&pageSize=60 will give you a list, each one having a product page.

Or www.logos/features provides a more useful summary.

There's not too much 'precisely' without buying the datasets ... then you get a manual! Before that, it's here and there ... some forum threads scattered here and there. I agree with Doc .. buy if need ... else.

Ross F Downes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855872#Comment_855872

Thanks Doc,

It sounds like frustration is another name for being a Logos user. I was interested to hear that when buy a Dataset, you get a manual. Does that mean that if you buy the Logos 7 Full feature Set that you get a signifcant User manual?

Ross F Downes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855872#Comment_855872

Hi Doc,

I take a little comfort from discovering that I am not alone!!!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

I still think it is a great system, but it is hugely complex.

Welcome [:D]

+1 [Y] concur about complexity. Thankful for many friendly forum discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.

I have maps and altas add-ons but if click on 'Atlas' under tools, it immediately becomes clear that there are none of the necessary resources required to run the Tool.

Fatihlife revamped Atlas in Logos 6 => New Feature: Atlas

Personally find Media Search using a collection of geography and maps has similar results as "Atlas" predecessor for finding maps:

I was interested to hear that when buy a Dataset, you get a manual. Does that mean that if you buy the Logos 7 Full feature Set that you get a signifcant User manual?

Feature Set purchase OR Logos Now subscription includes Library resources with dataset documentation:

Caveat: stopping Logos Now subscription removes dataset usability and documentation. Please advise if would to see some dataset document examples.

Where do I look up detailed answers to queries about the various Datasets?

Is there somewhere that I can look to see precisely what each Dataset can do

is there somewhere that I can look to see what resources one needs to have for the Dataset to shine

Logos Now membership includes access to many datasets. Timeline => https://www.logos.com/now-timeline includes when dataset(s) were released plus links to Logos Pro videos showing dataset in action. Many datasets have forum threads: What's Included in Logos 7 includes links to many dataset threads.

Datasets

Discourse Datasets and Visual Filters (Subscription Only)

New Feature: Cascadia Syntax Graphs of LXX Deuterocanon and Apocrypha

Miracles of the Bible

Syntactic Force

Speaking to God

Proverbs Explorer, vol. 2

Biblical Theologies Section

Israelite Sacrifices

Reported Speech, Speakers, and Addressees for Deuterocanon

New Testament Use of the Old

Confessional Documents Section

Proverbs Explorer Dataset

Bullinger's Figures of Speech Dataset

Addressees in Reported Speech

Greek Grammatical Constructions

Old Testament Propositional Bible Outlines

Psalms Explorer Dataset

RSVCE Hebrew Old Testament Reverse Interlinear

Systematic Theologies Section

Keep Smiling [:)]

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855888#Comment_855888

Logos help is pretty good these days, but you gotta work for your meat.

That and the Wiki.

LogosPro training, even if it feels like more advertisement than help, is pretty good intro. Use it.

Udemy is good, and I am a major fan of LearnLogos.com.

Best of all is just ask questions here. There are a couple handfuls of people here helping who are simply amazing.

Dave Hooton

Where do I look up detailed answers to queries about the various Datasets?

What Denise supplied is excellent, but realise that

you can't buy them individually
you don't get documentation until you buy them e.g. https://www.logos.com/product/120029/logos-7-full-feature-set
dataset documentation (type:manual) is not complete, but 16 is a good start!
you may get a Glossary of terms in the manual, or as a separate resource (type:Glossary).
hovering over the title in the Feature Set web page may be the only way to get information!

The documentation should clarify whether the dataset information is revealed in a Guide, Factbook, Interactive or Search e.g.

Semantic Roles are revealed via Bible Word Study (Case Frames). When you hover over a term, the meaning comes from the appropriate Glossary; which then enables you to search for specific terms (roles) via Clause Search. Resources include LHB, SBLGNT and Reverse Interlinears
Literary Type is revealed via Passage Guide (Literary Typing) or you can Search e.g. {Section <LiteraryType Allusion, Old Testament>} using terms from the Glossary. Most bibles can be searched for this.
If you like Syntax Searching the Full Feature Set seems to include the necessary resources.

Where datasets are not documented e.g.

Logos Controlled Vocabulary (LCV) provides topics/concepts via Topic Guide, Everything Search & Factbook. The necessary resources are bible dictionaries (type:encyclopedia, or type:concordance). For the most part, the lack of a glossary doesn't matter when there are 14 000 topics

Psalms Explorer, Proverbs Explorer, and New Testament use of the Old Testament are revealed via their Interactive resource, and can be searched as per this wiki. Also see Searchable Labels in the “Logos Help” resource. Most bibles can be searched for these labels.
Resource Excerpts are revealed via articles in the Home page

As you can see it's not easy to get the required information, let alone summarise and classify it e.g. one dataset is fundamental to original language searching and another only provides pericopes for passage drop-down menus (and for Compare Pericopes in the Passage Analysis tool).

If one dataset is useful to you then you have to buy the appropriate Logos 7 Feature Set (it may be available in Starter) but ask specific questions before (and after) you buy OR try Logos Now for a free month to make your decision.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855899#Comment_855899

OR try Logos Now for a free month to make your decision.

Just a detail - the free trial month for Logos Now is no longer being offered (https://community.logos.com/forums/t/128695.aspx)

Mark Barnes

When I first brought in the system, It cost what was then, a lot of money. I still think it is a great system, but it is hugely complex. That complexity leads straight to frustration. The moment I think I can see a way through, then I discover that further progress is going to cost an arm and a leg. Another up-grade will be just round the corner and although my books might be time-less, if I fall for the new features, I will need a new mortgage.

If you bought Logos a long time ago, and haven't had a paid upgrade since, you'll be missing out on a lot of the newer features, and I can see how that could be frustrating.

The good news is that it's never been cheaper for older customers to get the latest features, because Logos Now allows you to rent those features for $99/year. You won't need to spend $400-$600 on a crossgrade, as used to be the case. And, if you choose the rental option then you'll automatically get the even newer features as they're released. (For example, a new Morph Search feature is coming in November.) The downside of rental is that if you stop subscribing, you'll go back to what you have presently.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855912#Comment_855912

I'm well aware of the NOW equation vs buy. If you stop renting, you're on the street. And if you stop buying, and see a feature later, it's completely unaffordable.

So, I bought, though mainly by Logos including the latin and DSS interlinears ... something most (almost all?) have no need for at all. A waste for most.

But I really wonder about the honesty of most L6 and L7 features ... seems to be the future. By honesty, not vs dishonesty, but not grappling with 'need'. Who needs most of the listed features?? Who can even explain them? Or remember the syntax. My metric for use-level is who can answer a question on the forum regarding even their basic use? .... basically the Marks, Devon, Graham, and maybe MJ.

They say you can do really neato searches ... and I'd agree, you can. But who does? My guess is that Logos is the guides, basic searching, and the sermon editor. You're done.

Cynthia in Florida

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855930#Comment_855930

I'm well aware of the NOW equation vs buy. If you stop renting, you're on the street. And if you stop buying, and see a feature later, it's completely unaffordable.

So, I bought, though mainly by Logos including the latin and DSS interlinears ... something most (almost all?) have no need for at all. A waste for most.

But I really wonder about the honesty of most L6 and L7 features ... seems to be the future. By honesty, not vs dishonesty, but not grappling with 'need'. Who needs most of the listed features?? Who can even explain them? Or remember the syntax. My metric for use-level is who can answer a question on the forum regarding even their basic use? .... basically the Marks, Devon, Graham, and maybe MJ.

They say you can do really neato searches ... and I'd agree, you can. But who does? My guess is that Logos is the guides, basic searching, and the sermon editor. You're done.

...and that's the brutally honest reality. (Except I would add Dave to the list)

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855930#Comment_855930

They say you can do really neato searches ... and I'd agree, you can. But who does? My guess is that Logos is the guides, basic searching, and the sermon editor. You're done.

A thought on this.

It's probably worth distinguishing between the underlying search capability that is provided in Logos and its "ease of use".

Many of the questions we see on the forums suggest that lots of (unquantified!) people would like to make use of the powerful search features inherent in the product but find it isn't easy.

And Eli recognises this - at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/131253/854800.aspx#854800 - and says that they plan to do something about it.

So, at the moment, the search functionality has developed ahead of usability and that is something recognised and something Faithlife intends to address at some stage.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855954#Comment_855954

I agree on the UI. And probably like many, I've imagined the growing datasets are actually plugging into an already in-development revolutionary Bible software platform, that will skip both L8 and L9 (catch up with MS). Not being sarcastic ... I really do wonder ... it'd certainly be a game changer.

But the impediment is the distance between a user need/thought, and final results. Tremendous time, literally thousands of results. Who has the time? Pastors at least shouldn't. Students and a class tasking? Academics, I doubt.

I'm probably unusual, since I probably data-abuse the Logos agreement, though I carefully toe the line. But I make super-heavy use of the data .... but only by pulling it out, and programatically analyzing it. Sitting there getting little pieces of it inside Logos gets me nowhere. I just wonder.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855967#Comment_855967

I've imagined the growing datasets are actually plugging into an already in-development revolutionary Bible software platform, that will skip both L8 and L9 (catch up with MS).

Eli, again, has some interesting thoughts on the evolution of this capability (with appropriate disclaimers) at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/131253/855054.aspx#855054

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/855887#Comment_855887

o hear that when buy a Dataset, you get a manual.

There are no paper manuals with Logos. Never will, according to the boss. It's been a sore spot with a few of us, but others don't seem to care (and a few are militantly opposed). And I don't call online stuff "manuals", because you can't touch them...they are help files.

However, the help files have actually become useful over the past year or two. Initially, they were ad markup. But FL apparently dedicated some resources and time to the help files and now they provide a good bit of information and a few worked examples. They need more work, but then with the features changing all the time, that's a given.

Sean Boisen

I have been a logos user for years. When I first brought in the system, It cost what was then, a lot of money. I still think it is a great system, but it is hugely complex. That complexity leads straight to frustration. The moment I think I can see a way through, then I discover that further progress is going to cost an arm and a leg. Another up-grade will be just round the corner and although my books might be time-less, if I fall for the new features, I will need a new mortgage. Questions that have stumped me include:

Where do I look up detailed answers to queries about the various Datasets?

Is there somewhere that I can look to see precisely what each Dataset can do

is there somewhere that I can look to see what resources one needs to have for the Dataset to shine

I have maps and altas add-ons but if click on 'Atlas' under tools, it immediately becomes clear that there are none of the necessary resources required to run the Tool. I find this a common outcome with trying to use various tools; frustrating beyond words.

Ross F Downes

We've been adding documentation for most datasets as resources in your Library: "type:manual" will display them. We've shipped about 25 at this point, and we're still adding more. That documentation is intended to answer common questions about datasets, and also provides avenues for feedback and other questions, since we can't anticipate all the questions users might have. Unfortunately we haven't yet completed the documentation for Atlas.

In the interim, if you have specific questions about Atlas, please post them in the forum (a subject like "Atlas questions" will help it stand out), and we'll do our best to answer.

The Atlas tool is a specific feature from Logos 6 with a series of zoomable maps created by Faithlife: it isn't a composite of all the map resources in your library. To date we've shipped about 110 maps: that includes most of our planned coverage of the life of Jesus, the early church, and the united kingdom. Other eras of biblical history are still under development: we're only about half-way through our planned set of maps.

You may find this previous thread helpful.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/856276#Comment_856276

It's been a sore spot with a few of us, but others don't seem to care (and a few are militantly opposed). And I don't call online stuff "manuals", because you can't touch them...they are help files.

And some of us define manuals as reference manuals rather than training manuals ... and hope for the former but are very skeptical of the viability of the latter. [:D]