Forum Guidelines: No Theology Debates
Comments
-
Protestants: Our customer base is still 95% protestant, and we are targeting a 5% Catholic group. You know that there are some Catholics passionate about the truth of scripture. In past history they were so passionate they burned people at the stake, who did not bow to the Pope and authority of the Roman Catholic Church. They stole land, impronsoned and tortured countless people for their zeal for God. Some of these Catholics are out-of-control people and are not good with getting along with others who do not worship the Pope That's why the Catholic church is basically one large church that claims all protestants are outside of Orthodox Christianity. While there are some protestant church splits due to doctrinal issues that need to be addressed, the Catholic Church has unified around false doctrines and will defend those false doctrines vehemntly. Protestants, I know the attacks historically have been painful and unkind coming from the Roman Cathlolic Church, but please understand that you're "surrounded" by people who traditionally are more likely to burn you at the stake, issue a Papal Bull, or call down an anathama on those who do not bow to Roman Catholocism. In the Catholic mindset there is a single authority figure alone who is to be respected as the Mediator between God and man, the Pope.
I wonder how the forum would have went if Bob attacked the catholics as he did the protestants. And he is the president of Logos??????????
0 -
If Logos was serious about this Bob would remove his initial attack and slander against Protestant Christians and close this forum. But the fact remains that he seems to want this to go further since he has not removed the post. When you stab someone in the back and then apologize, it really is not taken to seriously when you refuse to pull the knife out of the persons back after you apologize.[:D]
0 -
Jolly Troll said:
If Logos was serious ...
Doesn't the screen name say it all (combined with the low post count)?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
"Forum Guidelines: No Theology Debates"
Some people just don't like that word NO, do they? Which proves the old adage; age is NOT a number. [8-|]
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:Keith Larson said:
Your characterization of Protestants was very unfair.
See, this is why I hate these arguments... I'm in over my head. :-)
I've heard a few people (here, and on blogs) saying I've "thrown protestants under the bus" or gone "anti-protestant." That certainly wasn't my intention at all, and I apologize if I was somehow unfair to protestants, among whom I number myself.
This is a case of writing too quickly and posting without enough thought, in the heat of the moment. I wasn't trying to make any bold statements about Catholics and protestants; I actually thought I was making a mildly clever point in response to calls for someone to "step in and settle things," by pointing out that protestant churches don't have the hierarchy of the Catholic church. When protestants disagree on doctrine, they rarely kick the issue upstairs for an authoritative answer from the church hierarchy; they just split the church. I was trying to make the point that it was harder to get people so inclined to ever "settle down and get along" when they believe they are arguing a theologically important point. I thought that the request for someone to "set the rules" reflected a perspective that might be informed by experience in a more hierarchial church structure.
This was obviously too subtle a point and too gross a simplification, and probably too informed by my own experience in small non-denominational churches, all too many of which seem so split over trivial stuff.
Even my use of split wasn't a reference to departing "away from the true church." I meant splitting as in Tom, Mary, and their small group are leaving to start a new church down the street where we will use harmonicas during worship....
I apologize for the confusion, and for my flippancy. I plead jet-lag (last week) and too many simultaneous fires.
-- Bob
Bob, I think it would be helpful if you added an "EDIT" to your opening post with the words of the post quoted above.
And I frankly have little idea about the controversial threads which brought all this about. Whenever I see a "train wreck" about to happen, I go to a more helpful thread.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
0 -
Jolly Troll said:
In the Catholic mindset there is a single authority figure alone who is to be respected as the Mediator between God and man, the Pope.
I would suggest that you read The Grace of Everyday Saints: How a Band of Believers Lost Their Church and Found Their Faith by Julian Guthrie. If you have any interest in how Catholics actually respond to the hierarchy which is considerably different from what you suggest.
To those who say not responding to this thread is the wisest action, I say that I've just proved that I am not wise and that I've really wanted to have the opportunity to recommend Guthrie's book as a book that shows the Church as highly flawed but would help many to understand that Italian law is very different than English law - we argue when it doesn't make sense to obey.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Jolly Troll said:
If Logos was serious about this Bob would remove his initial attack and slander against Protestant Christians and close this forum. But the fact remains that he seems to want this to go further since he has not removed the post. When you stab someone in the back and then apologize, it really is not taken to seriously when you refuse to pull the knife out of the persons back after you apologize.
This poster should be ignored, at best this posters intent appears to only try and fan the flames. I for one stand up for all righteous opposition, but this does not represent righteous opposition. Poster if you have the boldness to post such harshness, you should be bold enough to use your real name, or fill out a Bio, and certainly not use a username that represents mockery. This post does nothing to solve anything, and only causes further separation. Bob has apologized and I for one think he was sincere.
0 -
Well said, and true, MJD. Could not have said it better, so I will say "Amen!"
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
MJ. Smith said:
To those who say not responding to this thread is the wisest action, I say that I've just proved that I am not wise
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
0 -
Nothing new under the sun. On the one hand it wearies me to see the same slogging going on here that I have seen numerous times before, especially after being mostly absent from Logos for weeks now (major life transition). On the other hand, how can any of us possibly think we can avoid this kind of back-and-forth striving and posturing? Especially on a forum whose basis is a software platform that promotes study of scripture/theology/philosophy. Touch subject. And you mix in people of all backgrounds, not just of ideology/theology, but varying degrees of emotional strength and weakness, argumentation/discussion styles, assumptions on how to deal with diversity, and to make it all more intriguing, we do this on an electronic medium which effectively nullifies nuance and body language.
I vote for keeping the forums. But we need to realize that no matter how many rules we have or threads we lock or people we help/defend/educate, this kind of wrangling will be present. Among those who take the name of Christ and have been given the deposit and presence of His Holy Spirit.
Peace.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 -
[I][H]“Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are.” St. Augustine
0 -
Michael, Peace to you! And!
Always Joy in the Lord!
I have been following this thread closely as have so many others. Won't it be great when the last post is made on this thread, eh? *smile*
Could you help me, please?
Firstly, help me understand how your post is adding positively to the discussion.
Secondly, could you give the source of your quote from St. Augustine. I couldn't find it..... I wanted to study the context so I could better understand what you were trying to communicate.
Thirdly, the large red print hurts my tired old eyes. Could you perhaps consider editing it a bit, please?
Thank you.
May God give you Discernment and Wisdom and Bless you richly.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
0 -
MJD said:
“Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are.” St. Augustine
Do you have a reference for that? I have heard quotations supposedly by Augustine which I have been unable to locate -- this is one of them.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:
Do you have a reference for that?
My usual sources come up blank ... and usually say "attributed to St. Augustine of Hippo"
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
From wikiquotes...
- Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and
courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do
not remain the way they are.- As quoted in Spirituality and Liberation: Overcoming the Great Fallacy (1988) by Robert McAfee Brown, p. 136
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo
After looking at all the other Google results I bet this resource fails to quote where it came from as well.
0 - Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and
-
Halo Hound said:
After looking at all the other Google results I bet this resource fails to quote where it came from as well.
I like to search Google books when I'm trying to source quotes because published material tends to be a bit more rigorous with citations.. After checking the results for the Augustine quote, I find either they don't to cite a source, or they cite a source that doesn't cite its source.
I've found that Augustine, Luther and Calvin seem to attract mis-stated or mis-attributed quotes. Since their writings are well known, failure to find a quote is a good sign it is apocryphal, IMO.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
0 -
This wonerful quote came over the fence to me:
To better understand what it means when spoken by those "over there", I leaned over the fence straining my ear and heard this:MJD said:“Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are.” St. Augustine
"Hope has two beautiful daughters', said St Augustine. 'Their names are anger and courage: anger at the way things are and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are.'
What a challenge! How can we keep these two gifts of God dancing in harmony? How do we clarify our convictions and passions and translate them into effective actions? Ignatius Loyola offered us a seemingly simple daily exercise which can reconcile these powerful movements of our hearts and let them flower as hope. Nowadays we call it the ‘consciousness examen', and it goes along these lines:
"Begin by recalling God's presence
Look at the day with gratitude
Ask the help of the Spirit to review the day
We ask God:
When did I see you today?
When did I love you today?
When did I not see you?
You were there but I could not get a grasp of who you were and where you were.
Where, how, did I miss seeing you?
Was I called to be an instrument of reconciliation and peace and healing?
Did I hear that call?
Did I respond to that call with openness? "I am glad I lent mine ear to Mark Raper SJ. For he understands St. Augustine better than I.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Milford Charles Murray said:
Michael, Peace to you! And!
Always Joy in the Lord!
I have been following this thread closely as have so many others. Won't it be great when the last post is made on this thread, eh? *smile*
Could you help me, please?
Firstly, help me understand how your post is adding positively to the discussion.
Secondly, could you give the source of your quote from St. Augustine. I couldn't find it..... I wanted to study the context so I could better understand what you were trying to communicate.
Thirdly, the large red print hurts my tired old eyes. Could you perhaps consider editing it a bit, please?
Thank you.
May God give you Discernment and Wisdom and Bless you richly.
Hello Milford,
The "Hope..." quote, is prolific IMHO... I see that someone has already provided you the resource.
The meaning one can derive from those words put together are inspiring. One must meditate and pray for understanding, if they are not able to derive meaning. Because... meaning will come if you ponder this long enough.
Romans 8:24 (NIV84)
24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?Righteous Anger is good.
Courage to affect needed change is good.
I am sorry your eyes are hurt from the print, [H] please put on sunglasses. This message needs to shine brightly, and I don't want to hide it under a bushel basket!
0 -
Peace to you, Michael!
*smile*
Thank you for your reply..... I was wondering if that quote really came from St. Augustine.
While I don't really disagree with anything you are saying, I do find what you are saying a wee bit "fuzzy" over against what to have righteous anger toward ..... and what changes to what need to be made.
It reminds me of the Canadian writer -- Stephen Leacock -- who wrote in one of his novels, "Lord Ronald said nothing; he flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse and rode madly off in all directions."
Once our orientation is clear, then perhaps we might apply the anger and courage. Of course we need the Holy Spirit's Guidance for that! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
0 -
Milford Charles Murray said:
Secondly, could you give the source of your quote from St. Augustine. I couldn't find it..... I wanted to study the context so I could better understand what you were trying to communicate.
Found this here and it makes sense to me:
> I'm seeking help from the scholarly-inclined. I just now stumbled across this quote:
> Hope has two lovely daughters: Anger and Courage>>St. Augustine
>Could someone point me to an online source by which I could confirm the attribution to Saint Augustine?
Sorry Aurora, it appears to be a false attribution as far as I can tell. Not only is there no evidence he ever said that, it doesn't even sound like something he would have said (and I've read a lot of St. Augustine for my sins). I personally checked _The City of God_, _Confessions_, and the _Enchiridion_. And the BBC website of unattributed quotes has it listed as unconfirmed (and it's been there for at least 3 years).
The flip side is that Augustine left behind a rather substantial opus of letters and sermons. It can not be disproven as a quote so long as
these are unchecked. I will opine that you won't find it there either just on the basis of how he really thought and how he treated the concept
of hope in his writings. He was not a metaphorical or anthropomorphizing guy. He also dealt with hope in just one way: hope for eternal salvation. The full version of this "quote" sounds like the Serenity Prayer (sometimes misattributed to St. Francis of Assisi) but stuffed into the mouth of Augustine: "Hope has two beautiful daughters, anger and courage; anger at the way things are and courage to change them."
The plea for action in the world outside one's self is not Augustinian. For Augustine, the inner struggle of the soul is the important thing (with an implicit assumption that faith comes first and deeds will naturally follow). If you have real faith then deeds will happen - you won't be able to help yourself. Deeds are a symptom of having faith. Faith is the driving force of good works, not anger or courage. That's why the above "quote" is not Augustinian. YMMV.
Online copies of the complete opus of St, Augustine can be found at: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/index.html
~~ ttfn Therasia (who went to a "Great Books" university)Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
anger
■ noun a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility.
Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.0 -
I ran across one reference (Google) that claims Augustine went on in that writing to instruct us to replace anger with serenity.
This seems to pop up in a lot of the AA websites when they talk of the development of the Serenity Prayer.
Still no documented source of a direct quote to Augustine. The rock band Styxx did write a song titled "Fooling Yourself" that asks "Why must you be such an angry young man, when your future looks quite bright to me?" [:@] [:O]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
SuperTramp said:
I ran across one reference (Google) that claims Augustine went on in that writing to instruct us to replace anger with serenity.
This seems to pop up in a lot of the AA websites when they talk of the development of the Serenity Prayer.
Still no documented source of a direct quote to Augustine. The rock band Styxx did write a song titled "Fooling Yourself" that asks "Why must you be such an angry young man, when your future looks quite bright to me?"
I may be "Fooling Yourself(Myself)", but, It doesn't really matter to me if it was with absolute certainty a St. Augustine quote. I am not in a "game show" trying to earn points!
Let me throw another St. Augustine quote you may be able to disprove as well. But, even if it is not from Augustine, I still LOVE this prolific statement.
"Love God, and do what ever you want!" Baam!
0 -
MJD said:
Let me throw another St. Augustine quote you may be able to disprove as well. But, even if it is not from Augustine, I still LOVE this prolific statement.
"Love God, and do what ever you want!"
The quote is generally given as "Love God and do as you please." I have generally seen this attributed to St Augustine, but I have also seen it attributed to Martin Luther. I don't have Luther's works to search, but I haven't found it in St. Augustine. Frankly, it sounds more like Luther.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:MJD said:
Let me throw another St. Augustine quote you may be able to disprove as well. But, even if it is not from Augustine, I still LOVE this prolific statement.
"Love God, and do what ever you want!"
The quote is generally given as "Love God and do as you please." I have generally seen this attributed to St Augustine, but I have also seen it attributed to Martin Luther. I don't have Luther's works to search, but I haven't found it in St. Augustine. Frankly, it sounds more like Luther.
I have heard "do as you please" also. But, I have also heard this attributed to John Calvin... hmmm??
0 -
MJD said:
"Love God, and do what ever you want!" Baam!
In Christ we are freed from the Law -- for sure and forever. But our freedom is a freedom for love, not a freedom for license.
Our freedom is the freedom to choose -- as slaves in the first century did -- who will be our master. Will we give ourselves over to God and to a life that is consonant with God's love? Or will we choose something else, something less?
It's easy to hear Saint Augustine's remark as: "Love God and do what you will."
It's much more appropriate to Augustine's original meaning to put the emphasis on the first two words: "Love God and do what you will."I'll take libertarian movies for $500, Alex
Baam! You hit the daily-double! [:P]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
SuperTramp said:MJD said:
"Love God, and do what ever you want!" Baam!
In Christ we are freed from the Law -- for sure and forever. But our freedom is a freedom for love, not a freedom for license.
Our freedom is the freedom to choose -- as slaves in the first century did -- who will be our master. Will we give ourselves over to God and to a life that is consonant with God's love? Or will we choose something else, something less?
It's easy to hear Saint Augustine's remark as: "Love God and do what you will."
It's much more appropriate to Augustine's original meaning to put the emphasis on the first two words: "Love God and do what you will."I'll take libertarian movies for $500, Alex
Baam! You hit the daily-double! 
Great humor, you made me laugh!
But for the win and 1000 points.... How about:
“Love God, then you’ll do what he wants.”
0 -
MJD said:
But for the win and 1000 points.... How about:
“Love God, then you’ll do what he wants.”
And we have a winner! [Y] [H]That is a statement I can live with.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
MJD said:
But for the win and 1000 points.... How about:
“Love God, then you’ll do what he wants.”
[Y]
0 -
When I saw "Bam!" I thought the quote came from Emeril...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
0
