Logos Is Too Expensive

fgh said:

I'd be surprised if it wasn't more diverse than ever.

I quite agree Logos is diversifying. I would even say Logos far exceeds the "competition" in diversity. I do not think it is possible to achieve "balance." Nor do I believe Logos should try.

fgh said:

The blog, on the other hand, that is certainly as blatantly Reformed as ever, if not more. Just look at today's one about the "hero" Zwingli.

Whether we call ourselves "Reformed" or not we must acknowledge most of the history makers of the past held to Reformed theology and many should be considered heroes.

tom said:

I simply disagree.  The reformation started just under 500 years ago.  That leaves us with 1500 years of Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc...  Therefore, most of history markers of the past did not held to reformed theology.

On top of that, I'd suggest it's also a bit presumptuous to suggest that the last 500 years has been dominated by Reformed theology.  I'm sorry, but Wesleyan/Arminian thoology has a rich and long tradition too.  Add to that the Holiness/Pentecostal theology, and there's a lot more out there than just Calvinism.  Hence my desire to see what I'd consider a more level playing field with the resources offered.

Having said that, I do think Logos offers a lot of diversity.  That's not my point at all.  I'd just like to see some more standard, classic Wesleyan/Pentecostal material than what is offered presently.

fgh said:

Gary Osborne said:

On top of that, I'd suggest it's also a bit presumptuous to suggest that the last 500 years has been dominated by Reformed theology.  I'm sorry, but Wesleyan/Arminian thoology has a rich and long tradition too.  Add to that the Holiness/Pentecostal theology, and there's a lot more out there than just Calvinism.

Like Lutheranism and Anglicanism and Anabaptism... 

And let's not forget that Catholics and Orthodox and Orientals are still around after the Reformation as well, in spite of both Luther, Calvin and Zwingli.

Outside of the US, Reformed are a very small group. So small that during all my years of theology they were hardly even mentioned. I just looked at my basic church history book, and it's got about 10 pages on Calvin and Zwingli (together), plus a couple on the English puritans. So I'd say that if we're talking general church history, virtually none of "the history makers of the past" held to Reformed theology.

I am jealous of being in a place where that can be the case.  Over here it is quite hard to even talk about the faith without running into Reformed Assumptions or those of reactions to the Reformed, like the Wesleyan/Arminian and Holiness/Pentacostal mentioned above.

fgh said:

Outside of the US, Reformed are a very small group. So small that during all my years of theology they were hardly even mentioned. I just looked at my basic church history book, and it's got about 10 pages on Calvin and Zwingli (together), plus a couple on the English puritans. So I'd say that if we're talking general church history, virtually none of "the history makers of the past" held to Reformed theology.

Your type of school is not unusual. Virtually all Independent Baptist schools will never study any of the Catholic Church Doctors. My Independent Christian Bible College never studied Wesley, Azusa Street, or Calvin. Most Pentecostal schools will not "waste time" studying what Presbyterians believe.......[6]

That is why we need Logos to diversify their resources. Church history is being made at a faster rate this past century than at any time since the Apostles. Local assemblies of 2000, 5000, even 10,000 are common place. Ministries reach beyond national boundaries and dwarf Spurgeon's or Moody's influence.  Every year sees more Bibles printed in more languages. The Reformed faith is not dead. They are still well represented in and outside of the USA.

George Somsel said:

Super Tramp said:

That is why we need Logos to diversify their resources. Church history is being made at a faster rate this past century than at any time since the Apostles. Local assemblies of 2000, 5000, even 10,000 are common place. Ministries reach beyond national boundaries and dwarf Spurgeon's or Moody's influence.  Every year sees more Bibles printed in more languages. The Reformed faith is not dead. They are still well represented in and outside of the USA.

One point that has been neglected, and even denied, is that the Anglican Church is at its foundation a reformed church although it has strayed from its roots.  Read the 39 Articles found in the back of the BCP and you will see what I mean.

Getting a bit off topic, but how reformed the 39 articles are is debated.  Many have found more of a Lutheran influence, with the exception of the article on the Eucharist, which is, of course, Reformed.

Hi John Fidel,

John Fidel said:

I think being critical and constructive regarding pricing is good and helpful. Accusing a company of greed or other evil intentions without specific knowledge of such misconduct is inappropriate. Logos is a great business that I enjoy doing business with.

Great and thoughtful comment.

Logos is a never ending money pit designed for the affluent Christian

" rel="nofollow">Keep Smiling 4 Jesus said:

For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.

The average profit for software companies in general is between 15% and 30%. In my mind Logos charges a fair price for the products and services they provide.

Super Tramp said:

Your type of school is not unusual. Virtually all Independent Baptist schools will never study any of the Catholic Church Doctors. My Independent Christian Bible College never studied Wesley, Azusa Street, or Calvin. Most Pentecostal schools will not "waste time" studying what Presbyterians believe.......

LOLOL I read the sentence below and because of the way the line broke I thought you were saying something more "pointed". [:P]

I've actually heard some folks make the above critique...and they were Pentecostal.

James Macleod said:

Kevin A. Purcell said:

People have to understand that companies like Logos make their money selling books. If we buy their software and never buy another book, we're a drag on their company rather than a net plus. They agreed to enter into a "contract" where they will continue to support us through the syncing of our notes, settings, and other content between multiple devices. But that costs money.

I personally bought an upgrade not because I needed the books so much but because I want Logos to work for a LONG time and aside from recommending it the best way to help is to buy stuff.

For those who think it's too expensive, as the original poster said in this thread, great. Go get something else. Enjoy using the free software out there. If you need some recommendations, come over to my web site and contact me and I'll be happy to offer suggestions based on your needs. On a Mac Logos is one of the best packages I can buy. On Windows it is as well. It's the only one that works natively and very well on both (that is in version 5).

I'm thinking the same thing. I don't really need more books but I love what Logos is doing and want to make sure they stay in business. I love the new features as well.

Same here. Thanks Logos!

With Logos, you're paying for convenience.  If I'm going for actual value, Amazon and WTS offers better deals. Often it's not even close. I actually prefer reading printed books, especially reference ones, but can't beat the convenience of having your whole library on your computer and all that information just one click away.

Poor Seminary Student said:

With Logos, you're paying for convenience.

The best value you get for your Logos dollar is not mere "convenience" but the fact you are getting a virtual research team that reads your whole library and returns search results in a matter of seconds. This frees up your time to digest the results and find the relative nuggets of gold. Your study time is magnified exponentially. That is more than convenience.

I would just like to add a few simple thoughts:

1. As much as Logos charges, I must agree that their prices are simply way to high for most average folks (especially Christians) when compared to the resources of the smaller half of their package offering.

2. I remember hearing about Logos Bible software way back before I was even saved, so I'm quite certain that they have not only made enough over the years to "profit", but I'm also pretty sure that they aren't quite as heavily burdened by research and/or software writing as most of you think having had a corner on the market for a long time now.

3. Perhaps they would do better (in quantity of sales at least) by offering Ala cart packages such as 50/100/500/1,000 resources which folks decide on themselves so that we (the customers) get the most for our money.

4. 2 Corintians 2:17 "For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God." I myself wonder just how many Christians will be forced to live out a mediocre Christian life because they must choose more basic or at least more lofty priorities to spend the meager amount of money that pass through their hands on. I simply feel that Logos is exactly like one person on this thread stated, a "business".

Robert Turpin said:

I would just like to add a few simple thoughts:

1. As much as Logos charges, I must agree that their prices are simply way to high for most average folks (especially Christians) when compared to the resources of the smaller half of their package offering.

2. I remember hearing about Logos Bible software way back before I was even saved, so I'm quite certain that they have not only made enough over the years to "profit", but I'm also pretty sure that they aren't quite as heavily burdened by research and/or software writing as most of you think having had a corner on the market for a long time now.

3. Perhaps they would do better (in quantity of sales at least) by offering Ala cart packages such as 50/100/500/1,000 resources which folks decide on themselves so that we (the customers) get the most for our money.

4. 2 Corintians 2:17 "For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God." I myself wonder just how many Christians will be forced to live out a mediocre Christian life because they must choose more basic or at least more lofty priorities to spend the meager amount of money that pass through their hands on. I simply feel that Logos is exactly like one person on this thread stated, a "business".

Here is the respond to your question: http://community.logos.com/forums/thread/413124.aspx 

Bob Pritchett said:

Jacques said:

He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.

What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?

For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.

Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.

But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.

So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)

I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)

I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.

(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)

-- Bob

 

Thanks Wild Eagle, I must admit to not having read this entire thread so I appreciate your graciousness to so quickly and readily provide me further explanation to my concern. It does make me think that rather than forcing every customer to pay for support (which some will probably never utilize), that perhaps offering continued service/support after the sale for an additional fee structure could be a great way to both help those who choose to pay for it while simultaneously lowering the cost dramatically for those of us on the tightest of budgets.

And I say Kudos indeed for the idea of polling every Christian (WORLDWIDE rather than simply in America) to hit whatever number that it takes for Logos to be able to offer their entire package for up to $5 per month. This may need to be a quite lengthy pre-paid start up program, however I truly believe in my heart that such would serve God and his children much more effectively.

By the way - their complete package which costs $4,979.95, divided by $3 per person (because not only Christians use Logos), would take each and every person over 138 years to completely pay the current price. My wife came in to speak with me in the middle of writing this, so I'm not quite sure where I was going with that point...

At any rate, Logos - Keep up the tremendous work that you are doing to further God's kingdom (there's not question that Logos software is simply the best available!), and may God richly bless each and every single human being reading this. Praise and Glory be to God and his son our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another welcome to the forums, Robert. I'm sure many of us have had questions, probably most of us are fairly unaware of what all goes into making a company such as Logos function. Logos is not cheap, but it's not too expensive, in my opinion, when one considers what one gets, the sophistication of searches and links and whatnot that comprises the program. Their return policy is generous, and community pricing is a real help in acquiring quality resources, even though usually public domain, that are tagged and can be utilized in the program, not just simply PDF's to be read and clumsily searched.

When I traded in my old mobile phone (I believe it was the Nokia brick) I had the option to upgrade to a smartphone -- the monthly payments were twice that of another Nokia and I spent some time considering my options: did I really want to pay twice as much to call people and send text messages?  In the end I went for the smartphone and a whole new world of web-surfing and app-based opportunities were opened up to me.  Yes, it was expensive, but with Android technology I was getting more than a phone, I was getting a life organiser that was worth every penny.

To my mind Logos is no different.  It is expensive, but it's not too expensive: it isn't over-priced in terms of its functionality, and for anyone who thinks it is I would encourage them to check out some of the video tutorials that are available. Logos isn't just a software package, it's a super-searchable library and sermon prep tool.

Incidentally, pairing Logos and smartphones/tablets only serves to make the Bible study experience more accessible, more simple simple and much more satisfying. Couldn't say that about the brick...

Bruce (and tom) ... your point is not helpful.  I like the high prices and here's why. If they reduced them my pastor could afford Logos. My brother in law in Africa. My other one in Texas. My nephew in Nicaraqua. Then there's the people at church. My other churches friends. The list just goes on and on.

How, pray tell, will I be able to glory in my Bible study, if just about everyone else can?  What would be the point of owning Logos??

That's why i nod a big approval when the price of Cadallacs goes up. 

just some random thinking.

If one is tired of reading post about Logos being expensive, etc., just ignore the thread.

Treat it like other threads/sub forums you don't pay attention to. (I never open anything about Proclaim, iPhone, Mac) usually don't open other sub forums either.

Yes, put some common Q&A's up there in the stickies. That is what forum stickies are for! [:)]

However, a forum sticky that relates to Logos being expensive may be bad publicity, and be read as an "admission of the fact"! [6]