How Long Before Mac Developers Will be Allowed to Catch Up to Windows version?
I am writing in hopes that Logos will start to give some serious attention to slow down adding new features and try to get the existing ones working properly.
For a long time, I have reported that some of the most basic functions just don't work.
For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them. Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this.
Even more significant is that the Passage List feature is virtually useless for teaching because section titles are missing and do not appear in the Mac version (as far as I know, the Windows version does work properly). Why won't Logos allow developers to prioritize the fixing of critical regressions?
There is a long list of items that are simply inferior on the Mac version... see here. The current list includes
- PC Notes have more capabilities than Mac, includingautomatic hyperlinking of scripture in notes and right click to Note item. Logos 4.3 added keyboard shortcuts and bullet usability, but still needs more improvement; Logos User Voice suggestion =>Rework notes function – in one or multiple phasesincludes: “Implement parity for Mac version”; plus a specific Logos User Voice suggestion => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning
Changes promised for Logos 4.5 Beta, Note positioning on Mac included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1 - PC has more font size options: Program Scaling plus font slider adjustment in Bible Word Study, Biblical People, Biblical Places, Biblical Things, Cited By, Collections, Copy Bible Verses, Exegetical Guide, Explorer, Favorites, History, Information, Passage Analysis, Passage Guide, Passage List, Personal Books, Power Lookup, Program Settings, Pronunciation, Reading Lists, Reading Plan, Search, and Text Comparison. Specific Logos User Voice suggestion => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders, using new text slider in Logos 4.5 Beta 1Basic and Bible searches may hang program.
- PC Highlighting can create style then choose color that does not work on Mac plus editing new Mac style shows color missing along with Bugs languishing for 7-months... and Bug: Create/Edit Highlighting Style – cannot click on “choose a file ...”, Mac style color issue fixed in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
- PC Guides (Exegetical, Passage) have Stop button while Guide is populating, lacking on Mac
- PC Passage List has drag and drop option to change verse order plus compact view to show verse references without text along with ability to insert Heading, Mac lacks drap and drop, always displays full view and lacks Insert Heading
- PC Morph Search Analysis group by Lemma shows Lemma in summary lines, Mac does not
- PC Bible Word Study (BWS) has click on hebrew lemma option to change numbered lemma’s, need workaround for Mac.
- PC Bible Search with Grid display can hover mouse over grid box to display Bible verse in a pop-up. PC mouse pointer changes to hand over Bible version header; both PC and Mac can click Bible version header to change text displayed in Grid.
- PC Bibliography works, planned for future Mac release, included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
- PC Cited By tool has right click heading option to Expand, Expand All, or Collapse All, missing on Mac
- PC Collections can drag and drop from Open menu into (+) these Resources and (-) these Resources, fix promised in Logos 4.5 Beta, included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
- PC Copy Bible Verses can specify styles for Copy and Paste into Word that does not work on Mac
- PC Home Page customization has drag and drop option to change order of display (can sync to Mac via Logos servers).
- PC Read Aloud uses Text to Speech system speed preferences, but Mac always uses same speed
- PC Resource download(s) can be done in one session, but Mac needs many restarts, improved in 4.3 Beta 11, still an issue in 4.3 Release Candidate 1
- PC Scrolling in search results can be done using arrow keys on keyboard, not usable on Mac
- PC Search results has right click expand/collapse options plus larger clickable area for article expand/collapse than Mac
- PC Text Comparison can select and copy individual verses, but Mac needs workaround using Print/Export
- PC Timelines has styles menu to change timeline appearance, not yet implemented on Mac
- PC has middle mouse clicks that do not work on Mac(click middle mouse button to close a resource)
Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.
Comments
-
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? [H]
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
0 -
Joe,
I appreciate your questioning the progress on L4 Mac disparity with L4 Win. Could Logos 4.4 address this? As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out. Realizing priorities, I think at this point, many L4 Mac users would be willing to fall one step behind L4 Win in terms of new features, just to have all the existing differences properly addressed. Most disappointments with L4 Mac in the forums generally fall within this area.
Thanks for addressing this. You have my support in this endeavor.
0 -
John Fidel said:
Could Logos 4.4 address this?
There will not be a 4.4 release. Currently 4.5 is in beta.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Joe Miller said:
try to get the existing ones working properly.
[Y]
Joe Miller said:There is a long list of items that are simply inferior on the Mac version... see here.
This is why I hesitate to promote Logos to my Mac-using friends.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
0 -
Joe Miller said:
For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them. Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this.
Logos 4.5 Beta 4 on Windows allows sub-folders in Favorites to be arranged by dragging and dropping while Logos 4.5 Beta 4 on Mac needs a workaround:
- Prefix book name with Logos internal number (e.g. 61 Matthew, 64 John, ...), then right click on 61 Matthew => Sort by name.
- Create new folder, then drag sub-folders to new folder one at a time in desired order
- Use Logos 4 Windows to arrange sub-folders, then sync to Logos 4 Mac.
Updated wiki Feature Parity – Mac needs many improvements (added link to this thread).
Joe Miller said:Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.
Logos User Voice voting is showing Logos 4 Mac Enhancements more desired than all Feature Parity suggestions. Also included couple more suggestions mentioned in thread => Logos 4 Mac Consensus for Improvement Priorities
# 19 => Logos 4 Mac Enhancements with 174 votes, a possible follow-up to Suggestion for something special for the L4 Mac
# 39 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC with 64 votes
# 47 => Floating window layouts with 54 votes
# 71 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning with 25 votes
# 77 => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness with 23 votes
# 100 => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders with 13 votes
# 193 => Please add Logos 4 Program Settings with 4 votes
Note: Logos User Voice currently has 409 suggestions open for voting.
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
[Y][Y]
0 -
A poster on one of the other threads made a good point:
Mac's are still a very small part of Logos Sales, thus, as such a small marketshare footprint, I doubt we are going to see much improvement in the speed of changes.
0 -
Rusty,
You have not been using Logos very long I do not believe. My impression, having used the software for a long time (the early 90's), is that they will get these things fixed and up to speed sooner rather than later. They have moved L4 Mac along at a good pace since the Alpha. I have confidence in the those programing and directing the efforts of the company.
Please do not take my comments as condescending, as that is not my intent. You have a right to your opinion as I do mine.
0 -
I was just just commenting the gentleman on the other thread had a good comment on marketshare and how Logos must take care of things accordingly.
They do have to make sure they take care of the majority of the customer base first, just logical.
Was not being negative, just thinking that whatever the repair/update schedule is currently, may well be what is seen for the near future.
Macs/Osx/Ios are not the primary source of revenue for Logos.
0 -
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Macs/Osx/Ios are not the primary source of revenue for Logos.
It isn't a bad idea to assume that revenue generating would score high priority in a for-profit company. (And as you correctly pointed out previously, Logos is a for-profit company.) The part of your assumption I diverge from is I believe development for the Mac platform will score a high priority based on possible future revenue.
I just got a Mac a few weeks ago and am just getting in to Logos 4 Mac. I am quickly learning parity between the Windows and Mac OS programs has not yet been achieved. I can personally fall back on Logos 4 Windows. But a Mac-only user may buy a nice base package, thinking all features his Windows-using fellow pastor friend has been raving about will be fully functional on his Mac. That user may not have a Windows machine to fall back on.
I am not blaming Logos for technical issues that pop up after the software has been released. We have seen conflicts with IE8, .Net Framework updates, delayed Hebrew speech due to Microsoft, and maybe issues with Mac OS X 10.7. If Logos can quickly handle these issues when they pop up and keep moving toward parity with the Windows version they can realize expanding profits with the expanding user base. There are many Mac only users who will abstain from buying into Logos until they see this has become reality.
I am already happy with Libronix 3, Logos 4 Windows, and Logos 4 Mac. I am thrilled with the resources they already publish. I am thrilled with what the future holds for resources. I suspect I will love the iOS & Android apps whenever I get one of those devices.
It is not crazy to avoid buying software that won't work for me, even when a hundred people tell me I should buy it. It is also not sane to dump a software that works for me just because it does not work for the other guy's needs. I wonder sometimes if Logos feels like Jacob did when he found himself married to two sisters who both wanted his exclusive attention. Genesis 29:16-30 [:S]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Fr Charles ... I wouldn't assume the group with the greater customer share gets the large marjority of the support.
In Logos case, they aced a market they already pretty much owned (Windows), but stumbled (a little?) on the market that offers future expansion (Mac).
As a previous executive, that'd hurt.
And given Bob's drive and early work in Windows, I'd bet he's considerably more frustrated than you might be, since achieving multi-platform success would certainly be a corporate coup (and good for you too!).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
Patrick S. said:
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...[^o)]
0 -
Agreed MJD.
I might add: I find it "odd" to hear a company say they cannot "find" osx software designers that are willing to relocate. This does not seem to be a problem for other Osx based companies, and, I know of many that do not even require moving to work with code.
0 -
MJD said:
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...Patrick S. said:Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?
I don't. I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)
added: I am also aware of several MVPs who have publicly said some rather surprising things. And a few incidents of honest acknowledgement by Logos employees concerning bugs and how they will deal with them, or why a fix will be delayed. At least there is dialogue and some progress.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Agreed MJD. I might add: I find it "odd" to hear a company say they cannot "find" osx software designers that are willing to relocate. This does not seem to be a problem for other Osx based companies, and, I know of many that do not even require moving to work with code.
That is actually part of the problem. There are quite a few people who are willing to telecommute. Logos specifically states that all employment positions require moving to Bellingham (unless the job is regional.)
Most companies that lead their fields do so because they will only hire the cream of the crop. The pharmaceutical companies, engineering & architectural firms, chemical and aerospace industries send out "head-hunters" to recruit the top dozen students from the top dozen universities. (They will also try to lure them away from other companies with lucrative offers.) The rest of the graduating classes must go searching for jobs. Logos is the leading Bible software company and not only requires software engineering expertise, but knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Bible, ministry, theology, marketing and multiple linguistic abilities. They also require some experience in the field the applicant is applying for. It must be difficult to find knowledge and experience in a qualified applicant who is able to pick up and move to Bellingham without disrupting an established family life. I think we will all agree it is desirable for Logos to hire the cream of the crop. That narrows the field considerably.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
The continued lack of "catch-up" for the mac version leads me to believe Logos thinks it is "good enough" to win the sale (a very windows/microsoft way of thinking).
Logos should be assured that they will slowly bleed out that revenue and see a continued drop in sales and market share. I've already stopped using Logos for anything but "go to" resources that are only found in Logos. I'm spending my money elsewhere because I no longer trust that:
a. Logos is committed to attaining key feature parity with the mac version
b. Logos is committed to the OS/IOS platform long termI'm guessing I'm not the only one.
I totally get that it's hard to get "mac" developers to relocate to a part of the country where MS is deeply rooted and dominant. No shocker there; for the most part you're either going to find dabblers or inexperienced people who want to build up their resume. There's typically a few ways around this: first, build a satellite office in an area where it's much easier to hire the skill set and invest in telepresence & collaborative tools/methods (HUGE change for Logos, not likely, nor possibly wise), two, pay a steep premium to get the same experience/level of skill you have for other platforms and irritate your loyal dev team (creates all kinds of other problems), and finally... go slow, build as you are able and hope you don't fall too far behind (I didn't forget the contractor approach, just never works with something as monolithic and fast-moving as Logos, they learned that the hard way).
Clearly they've chosen the "slow and steady wins the race" approach. A wise business decision, but maybe not the best for those of us stubborn mac users.
Bye for now!
0 -
Mike S. said:
I'm spending my money elsewhere because I no longer trust that: a. Logos is committed to attaining key feature parity with the mac version b. Logos is committed to the OS/IOS platform long term
I'm betting Logos arrives at true feature parity before the "other guys" arrive at equivalent resource libraries.
My main interest in Logos is breadth first, then depth. If others' interest lie in "only" original languages or a narrow specialty, I understand the urgency for finessing the program features first.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Super Tramp said:
My main interest in Logos is breadth first, then depth. If others' interest lie in "only" original languages or a narrow specialty, I understand the urgency for finessing the program features first.
My main interest in studying the Word. Things like the Passage List (enabling me to view discontinuous sections of the bible), Compare Verses and managing multiple layouts are the kind of "depth" (what I'd call "basics").
I've been tool they are "coming", but have never been delivered on. I like the breadth of resources, but it's a basic search/lookup tool until I can do what I call "the basics"
0 -
Mike S. said:
I've been tool they are "coming", but have never been delivered on.
I'm sorry you don't have it yet. I won't bother suggesting you switch to Windows. [:#]
I still think Logos will keep pursuing the Mac market. There are just too many people using Macs for Logos not to.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
If I remember correctly the code is the same, but theres an extra layer between the code and the GUI with the macs, I remember reading that this is where the issues lie, where as with windows it just works, with the macs you need to take a hammer to it to make it fit..
I see greater parity with each release, but given how late Logos were with Logos 1 for Mac, I think the Progress on L4Mac is awesome.. (but I know you want it all fixed now) I would rather wait and have it right than have a bad version
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
0 -
DominicM said:
I see greater parity with each release, but given how late Logos were with Logos 1 for Mac, I think the Progress on L4Mac is awesome.. (but I know you want it all fixed now) I would rather wait and have it right than have a bad version
Remember waiting many, many months on Logos 1 for Mac. Concur Logos 4 Mac progress has been awesome. Current stable Logos 4.3 SR-6 and Logos 4.5 Beta 4 have lots more features than Logos 1 for Mac.
DominicM said:If I remember correctly the code is the same, but theres an extra layer between the code and the GUI with the macs, I remember reading that this is where the issues lie, where as with windows it just works, with the macs you need to take a hammer to it to make it fit.
Logos 4 code base is shared on Mac and PC. Logos 4 PC uses .Net Framework 3.5 to run code with Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF) for User Interaction. Logos 4 Mac uses Mono (open source implementation of .Net Framework) to run code with Objective-C User Interface on Mac. The Mono project did not attempt WPF cross platform port. Noticed Xamarin follow-on to Mono published a release in August (primarily OS X Lion bug fixes); now looking for mono runtime programmers. Several feature parity items need Mac user interface coding to access shared code base capabilities. Sharing code does allow information sync cross platform that typically works.
Thankful for option to run Logos 4 Windows on Intel Mac with usable (sometimes faster) performance). WIki Logos 4 Mac => Need Logos 4 PC feature? includes links and tips. If running Windows to enable Logos 4 Windows use on Mac, can choose not to install lots of software in Windows virtual machine (low risk for malware infection since not looking at email nor web browsing).
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
I no longer work for Logos and I had not realized my Logos badge was not removed yet.Patrick S. said:Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?
I am, however, doing regional training independently in Southern California. The problems on the current state of the software make it very difficult to demonstrate and train Logos using my Mac. The software works fine for my personal study because I can work around the numerous bugs, regressions, and slowness, but in its current state the Mac version is an inferior product for using in training situations. As a full time Mac user, I would like to see this rectified.
0 -
-
I submit bug reports like everyone else and have no idea regarding timetable. The three issues I pointed out in my first post are ones I have reported over many many many cycles and all I am told is, "they are known issues and are on the list." New features get added, but from my perspective little effort is put into making the existing ones work properlyJohn Fidel said:As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out.
.
I am in the same boat as everyone else... a long time user for almost 18 years that wants the software to work for me and not against me [Y]John Fidel said:Thanks for addressing this. You have my support in this endeavor.
0 -
Joe Miller said:Patrick S. said:
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?
I no longer work for Logos and I had not realized my Logos badge was not removed yet.
Is now I see [;)]
Joe Miller said:As a full time Mac user, I would like to see this rectified.
Amen brother! [Y]
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
0 -
Super Tramp said:Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Macs/Osx/Ios are not the primary source of revenue for Logos.
It isn't a bad idea to assume that revenue generating would score high priority in a for-profit company. (And as you correctly pointed out previously, Logos is a for-profit company.) The part of your assumption I diverge from is I believe development for the Mac platform will score a high priority based on possible future revenue.
I just got a Mac a few weeks ago and am just getting in to Logos 4 Mac. I am quickly learning parity between the Windows and Mac OS programs has not yet been achieved. I can personally fall back on Logos 4 Windows. But a Mac-only user may buy a nice base package, thinking all features his Windows-using fellow pastor friend has been raving about will be fully functional on his Mac. That user may not have a Windows machine to fall back on.
I am not blaming Logos for technical issues that pop up after the software has been released. We have seen conflicts with IE8, .Net Framework updates, delayed Hebrew speech due to Microsoft, and maybe issues with Mac OS X 10.7. If Logos can quickly handle these issues when they pop up and keep moving toward parity with the Windows version they can realize expanding profits with the expanding user base. There are many Mac only users who will abstain from buying into Logos until they see this has become reality.
I am already happy with Libronix 3, Logos 4 Windows, and Logos 4 Mac. I am thrilled with the resources they already publish. I am thrilled with what the future holds for resources. I suspect I will love the iOS & Android apps whenever I get one of those devices.
It is not crazy to avoid buying software that won't work for me, even when a hundred people tell me I should buy it. It is also not sane to dump a software that works for me just because it does not work for the other guy's needs. I wonder sometimes if Logos feels like Jacob did when he found himself married to two sisters who both wanted his exclusive attention. Genesis 29:16-30
So, Windows is the sister that LOGOS was tricked into marrying first, and MAC is the one LOGOS truly loves [Y]
0 -
Sigh.
There's no conspiracy here. Yes, we make more money from Windows sales. But Mac is growing fast, and that may flip sometime in the near future. We did, however, have about 17 years head-start on the Windows side. So unless we make the Mac team 3-4 times larger than the Windows team, it'll be a bit behind.
To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly. Our iOS platform support is excellent and keeps advancing; we don't even have a Windows Phone version. And Proclaim (which is the first app we wrote that didn't have 17 years of Windows history already) has been in near lock-step parity all along the way.
For what it's worth, the client-side Mac team is (at my last inquiry) larger than the Windows team.
Unfortunately, according to the developers -- including the Mac devs! -- coding on the Mac is much more difficult than on Windows. (If you disagree, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just reporting what I'm told, and have experienced.) The tools are not as mature and we don't have access to all the same platform features. So a feature like "Program Scaling" is a pain. This is a feature we never had in Logos 3, and only put in Logos 4 for Windows because WPF (the Windows display platform) basically gave it to us for free. It's just a couple of lines of code, because WPF handles it all. On the Mac is much more complicated, because the Mac display system doesn't handle "global scaling" the same way.
This is a consequence of doing the Mac version after Windows. If we'd started dual platform this feature would have been trivial to have in perfect parity: we would not have chosen to implement it on either platform. :-)
(In the same way, we used a data grid control on Windows that wasn't available on the Mac, where many features have needed a lot more code to re-create that functionality. This is one of the few third-party components we've used, but it is a significant piece of code. The Mac simply doesn't have the components / dev-tools infrastructure that Windows does.)
We're trying hard. We are re-writing some components to be cross-platform, instead of depending on underlying OS implementations that work differently. We are planning to open a satellite development office near Phoenix, AZ in the next few months to get access to a different and larger labor pool.
And I'll commit right here and now to hire the next 5 qualified Mac developers you send my way. :-)
Hmm... what about a new forum rule, where you can't complain about the Mac port until you have forwarded a development candidate? Doesn't everybody know at least one software developer? One smart person who could study software development?
-- Bob
PS Does it show my commitment that I'm reading the Steve Jobs biography?
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
PS Does it show my commitment that I'm reading the Steve Jobs biography?
This is sooooooo tempting ... I give in ... Does it also mean we can expect more Buddhist resources?[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Dear Bob: Reading the biography means different things to different people, however, from a leaders position and, one in your field, I would think there are many reasons to read the book, many insights to be gained, ideas to think on, some to reject etc.
Next: I would well imagine Osx would be challenging for people used to writing code for windows and used to windows tools.
I have also heard from many who have written primarily from Osx who find writing for windows and using those tolls, to be very frustrating.
Point: Many contemplatives will tell you that whatever spiritual discipline one begin's in will probably remain their main point of reference all their life. Thus is one began Benedictine, that discipline will be part of their life for their whole life, if one began Celtic, same thing, so forth and so on.
I tend to think this is probably true with code as well, the things people cut their teeth in, the one they get comfortable with, the one they "think" spatially, is the one that they are most proficient in.
There are several companies I know of that the code writers there speak of windows code and the tools being slow, complicated and a bit of a pain.
I also know many companies that write for Osx do so as proficiently as any windows based company writes code.
It is probably very difficult having both and trying to have both work together to try and do things that are best for both codes- In that, I certainly appreciate the difficulty you and your staff face.
iOS seems to be working well for you/us, mine has not crashed even once, read on it daily, nightly and, enjoy it. The code stays out of the way, the device disappears into the work/reading I am doing- well done.
Sadly, I can get more work done on my iOS devices with Logos, than I can my Mac.
I hope you find the code writers you need.
I hope your writers will concentrate on getting what you have working with stability , before moving on to more additions.
In my opinion, it is still better to work on one thing, do it well, finish it, then move to the next, than it is to try too many things at once. But of course, that's just my opinion-smile.
Lastly, I for one appreciate your interaction here ( and your sense of humor ), it does help knowing someone in/with authority is at least reading, taking in the different situations, getting the "snapshots" that Forums provide of the larger picture.
Please know that, contrary to some thinking, I do not believe my posts or those of others are intended as simply griping, complaining , though it may well seem as such.
Mine are simply the frustrations of a small Parish Pastor with limited financial resources, trying to make the best use of the funds he can muster.
Thanks again for your interaction, it has not fixed the crashing-smile- but it is nice to know you care enough to look in on the situation.
Grace and Peace,
Rusty+
0 -
Super Tramp said:MJD said:
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...Patrick S. said:Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?
I don't. I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)
Super Tramp... My suspicions were confirmed...[Y] Joe no longer works for the company!
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly. Our iOS platform support is excellent and keeps advancing; we don't even have a Windows Phone version. And Proclaim (which is the first app we wrote that didn't have 17 years of Windows history already) has been in near lock-step parity all along the way.
Bob,
You opened this discussion up by mentioning Proclaim...
Why would you use valuable Mac programers[8-)], which you say are almost impossible to find on developing a new software (i.e. Proclaim) when you don't have all of the bugs[sn] worked out of the Mac L4 platform?
Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?
0 -
MJD said:
Super Tramp... My suspicions were confirmed...Super Tramp said:
I don't. I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)MJD said:
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...Patrick S. said:Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?
Joe no longer works for the company! I thought you were implying Joe Miller was setting up a forthcoming Logos statement or decision.
I revel in the fact I was correct in saying Joe would have said that no matter what his relationship with Logos. (His character and personality show through prominently on his web site, Twitter tweets, and many forum posts.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
MJD said:
Why would you use valuable Mac programers
, which you say are almost impossible to find on developing a new software (i.e. Proclaim) when you don't have all of the bugs
worked out of the Mac L4 platform?You must have missed my analogy of Spring cleaning. If you are waiting on events beyond your control to fall in place on one project, it does not mean progress in other areas should not be attempted.
MJD said:Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?
I'm not convinced the CEO owes any explanation or apologies for being a multi-tasking creative genius. He has certainly taken Logos a lot further than any of us could.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
I tend to think this is probably true with code as well, the things people cut their teeth in, the one they get comfortable with, the one they "think" spatially, is the one that they are most proficient in.
However, it is also true that particular platforms have particular strengths and weaknesses. I once worked on a very obscure computer made by Reality. One requirement for being trained on the equipment was that you had experience on something other than IBM. The truth is that the logical patterns an excellent programmer has at their disposal are platform independent. The tools they have to implement that pattern is a major element in the speed with which a feature can be developed. Competent programmers are easy to come by; if you want to spread into truly new solutions you need superb programmers - and they can be hard to find.
My favorite hire - in academic administrative computing on Unisys and COBOL, I hired a programmer whose experience was entirely on CAT scan equipment in C+. He was the key in our first web based administrative application on Linux in Java. The remainder of the team? Unisys-COBOL, IBM-COBOL, track star with no experience and self-taught C+. The project came in on time and within budget. Moral: When Bob says it is partially the tools, believe him. Who knows - when he's out of school I might recommend my grandson to Bob. My grandson is already helping with a web "front end" to Logos.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Who knows - when he's out of school I might recommend my grandson to Bob. My grandson is already helping with a web "front end" to Logos.
Why would you wait for him to finish school? Working at Logos provides an excellent education, and it pays better, too. [:D]
David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife0 -
Super Tramp said:MJD said:
Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?
I'm not convinced the CEO owes any explanation or apologies for being a multi-tasking creative genius. He has certainly taken Logos a lot further than any of us could.
This question was asked specifically to Bob.
I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.[^o)]
Secondly, I wasn't trying to convince you. This was directed towards Bob, and I would love hear Bob's response on why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac), when there is so many shortcomings as described by Joe a recent employee of Logos (Joe's post has caused me serious concern). Before a new program (Proclaim) was launched.
Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything. I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!
Lastly,
I know Bob is talented, smart, etc., etc., what I would like to know is why a new project was started at Logos prior to fixing an existing project. There are limited resources, and to allocate Mac Developers to Proclaim, while lacking developers for Logos 4 repairs causes me concerns???
I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob. Thank You.
0 -
MJD said:
I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.
I have also been known to call the police when a domestic dispute spills out into the street, or call the dog pound when a yappy Chihuahua bites school kids walking home.
MJD said:why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac),
You are assuming the shortfall is with Logos resources, while Bob's posts clearly state their is a shortage in qualified applicants. Would you suggest Bob hire new people who can not accomplish the job? Or maybe reassign some of the sales staff, or Windows crew to write Mac code? Bottom line is, Bob spends more of Logos' money every day than your lifetime investment in Logos. I think he can be trusted with these decisions.
MJD said:Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything. I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!
Oh, there a lot of people who claim they can do something. A few may not be exaggerating. The only person that matters is the one who actually does something. Matthew 21:28-32
MJD said:I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob. Thank You.
You can reach him quicker by sending your questions directly to him at
Bob@Logos.com I've found it helps a lot to dial the correct phone
number when you want to communicate with someone. The days of "party
lines" are long past. If you tried direct communication with Bob already
and you are getting no answer, Bob is either real busy running the
world's best Bible software company, or he could just be ignoring you. [:O]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
MJD said:
I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.
I have also been known to call the police when a domestic dispute spills out into the street, or call the dog pound when a yappy Chihuahua bites school kids walking home.
You make no sense, there is no correlation.
Super Tramp said:Super Tramp said:MJD said:why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac),
You are assuming the shortfall is with Logos resources, while Bob's
posts clearly state their is a shortage in qualified applicants. Would
you suggest Bob hire new people who can not accomplish the job? Or maybe
reassign some of the sales staff, or Windows crew to write Mac code?
Bottom line is, Bob spends more of Logos' money every day than your
lifetime investment in Logos. I think he can be trusted with these
decisions."resource = Mac developer"
Do you get it, or do I need to go into further details? I am not sure where your disconnect is?
Super Tramp said:MJD said:Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything. I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!
Oh, there a lot of people who claim they can do something. A few may not be exaggerating. The only person that matters is the one who actually does something. Matthew 21:28-32
You were the one who spoke about the lack thereof. Don't you get it, nobody claimed a lack of ability except you!
Super Tramp said:MJD said:I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob. Thank You.
You can reach him quicker by sending your questions directly to him at
Bob@Logos.com I've found it helps a lot to dial the correct phone
number when you want to communicate with someone. The days of "party
lines" are long past. If you tried direct communication with Bob already
and you are getting no answer, Bob is either real busy running the
world's best Bible software company, or he could just be ignoring you.
This was an open forum comment -- in order to allow MANY PEOPLE to see the dialogue. I agree, Logos is the the best Bible software company, but it still needs to get better in the Mac L4 world. You may be right, he could be ignoring me.
0 -
Joe Miller said:
Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.
[*]This is why I addressed Bob in the forum. Joe who is a former Logos employee asked for users to "show an interest" in order to get some resolution.
0 -
MJD said:
there is no correlation.
The correlation is you have a $25,000 relationship with Logos. That is a significant connection. Why would you allow your dispute with your "significant other" (Logos) spill out into a public venue where you demand the CEO give you an account of his decisions?
MJD said:You were the one who spoke about the lack thereof. Don't you get it, nobody claimed a lack of ability except you!
Bob said there is a lack of qualified applicants. I say the 22 Logos users (out of 750,000) who think they could do a better job than Bob Pritchett, have so far done nothing in the way of re-imagining Bible study. A handful of our MVPs have done a lot more for Logos 4 than all the critics combined. Mark Barnes created a bibliography tool and many videos. MJ Smith has created many reading lists, collected lists of creeds and confessions, and encouraged mind mapping. Virtually all of Dave Hooton's posts are helpful answers to technical questions. Todd Philips, formerly with NASA, is great with technical issues as well as familiarity with commentaries. Kevin Becker, Rosie, KS4J, and several more who know resource content, write wiki entries, and give quick help to newbies when no one else is available.
It really does not matter if everyone on these forums is more mega-talented than Bob if they are not actually doing something with it. If they are not willing to move to Bellingham and join the Mac development team, they classify themselves as "unqualified." The positions advertised say nothing of armchair quarterbacking.
MJD said:This was an open forum comment -- in order to allow MANY PEOPLE to see the dialogue.
Hopefully some of the many qualified programmers will read it and submit their applications.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Super Tramp said:MJD said:
there is no correlation.
The correlation is you have a $25,000 relationship with Logos. That is a significant connection. Why would you allow your dispute with your "significant other" (Logos) spill out into a public venue where you demand the CEO give you an account of his decisions?
I don't have a dispute with Logos... what is wrong with you? I am concerned because I saw a comment from a very recently departed Logos employee. The comment concerned me... Why would he voice his concern over the forum? Is there something I am unaware of? Yes, I do have a large investment into Logos, and I want it function at the highest level.
You missed the boat, in your earlier post you made reference to nobody has the ability to run Logos better than Bob. My objection was to your comment, you don't know who has what abilities on this forum. "My dad is bigger than your dad" mentality" gets us no where.
0 -
Bob Prichard said it is harder to program the Mac than Windows. Since I am not a programmer I have no way to know about what the difficulties are.
But I wonder if it is harder because:
1. Mac users demand that programs be done right (the Mac way)
2. The underpinning of Logos is an orphan program that tries to enable Windows-type programming run on the Mac and makes the Mac program sluggish and has much more limited programming tools.
Is a straight Mac program, unencumbered with Windows mindset and code, truly more difficult to write than a straight Windows program. Or is it easier to produce junk on a Windows machine than it is on the Mac.
0 -
MJD said:
You missed the boat, in your earlier post you made reference to nobody has the ability to run Logos better than Bob. My objection was to your comment, you don't know who has what abilities on this forum.
King Solomon was faced with the task of determining who the real mother was in 1 Kings 3:16-28 . It was easy to see who really cared because of the love for the baby shown by the real mother. Logos is Bob Pritchett's "baby." He cares more for, and will do more for the best interests of Logos than anyone else. Your investment and my 8000 books combined will not generate the love and dedication to Logos like the investment Bob has made. I do believe there is no one better suited to run Logos. And if you believe all the trade journals and honors awarded Logos by the business community, they think so too.
MJD said:I am concerned because I saw a comment from a very recently departed Logos employee. The comment concerned me... Why would he voice his concern over the forum? Is there something I am unaware of?
There is a lot, busloads, of information you are unaware of. There is no benefit derived from including someone in the details when they have no way to effect the outcome. It is all run on a "need-to-know" basis.
MJD said:I don't have a dispute with Logos... what is wrong with you?
Oh, your dispute is just with Bob? It makes me wonder how demanding you get with the other Bible software companies you don't "love."
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Phil Mills said:
Or is it easier to produce junk on a Windows machine than it is on the Mac.
I doubt that is the case or we would not see the #1 demand from the Mac users is to have parity with Logos 4 Windows. The fact the Windows version looks better to the Mac users says it is not junk.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
MJD, do us all a favor and stop responding to Super Tramp... He's not terribly helpful in this thread (Super Tramp, I'm not making a general assessment about you - just as it pertains to this thread).
Joe Miller, sorry to hear you're no longer with Logos. I was looking forward to working with you in January. Bob, thanks for your thoughtful response.
MJD, I think you raise a valid question. Given the feature disparity and the lack of availability of Mac developers, it seems odd to start working on Proclaim.
If I had to guess, which is what we all are doing, unless you have a Logos badge, and this doesn't seem to include you Super Tramp... I'd guess that Logos decided to start working on Proclaim because they see a nacent (for them at least) market segment that they can generate additional revenue from as they build out the Logos echo system. Being that Logos seems to have a lead as it pertains to bible software on the Mac platform, they probably calculated that they could afford some delays in parity between Windows and Mac, which allows them to develop this new revenue stream (Proclaim), at the temporary cost of pulling Mac developers off the bible software.
If that's the case, I don't fault them for it. It's a bit annoying... but I get the business decision.
Bob P., you're a class act. I appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully respond to some of our concerns and questions. Some of us are frustrated about the Mac platform - but it's still a radically valuable product for our ministries. Keep up the good work and hopefully revenue objectives will soon line up with feature parity on the Mac platform
. Just so you know, I didn't consider switching to the Mac an option until you released Logos for the Mac... Logos was a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for me to switch from Windows to the Mac. I still use both platforms, but I'd say I'm now 90% Mac.Blessings - jp
0 -
Sorry ST, but having a star under your name holds you to a higher standard than others posting in the forum, as Logos has asked you t o represent the company. In my very humble opinion, you failed to take opportunity to say no more when you should have. People have frustrations that perhaps you cannot fix. This appears to be one of them and you do not appear to be helping the matter by continuing your line of discussion. Please find someone on the forums you can help with a problem that you may be able to fix.
I think you and the the other MVPs do a great job helping those requesting help on the forum. However, there are times when you cannot answer questions that require an answer from Logos employees. At those times please use discernment to not make frustrations worse. Often times it is wise to say nothing and let it go.
This is not personal or intended to be an attack on you in anyway. I am just offering constructive advise.
0 -
J.P. Poveda said:
MJD, do us all a favor and stop responding to Super Tramp... He's not terribly helpful in this thread (Super Tramp, I'm not making a general assessment about you - just as it pertains to this thread).
Joe Miller, sorry to hear you're no longer with Logos. I was looking forward to working with you in January. Bob, thanks for your thoughtful response.
MJD, I think you raise a valid question. Given the feature disparity and the lack of availability of Mac developers, it seems odd to start working on Proclaim.
If I had to guess, which is what we all are doing, unless you have a Logos badge, and this doesn't seem to include you Super Tramp... I'd guess that Logos decided to start working on Proclaim because they see a nacent (for them at least) market segment that they can generate additional revenue from as they build out the Logos echo system. Being that Logos seems to have a lead as it pertains to bible software on the Mac platform, they probably calculated that they could afford some delays in parity between Windows and Mac, which allows them to develop this new revenue stream (Proclaim), at the temporary cost of pulling Mac developers off the bible software.
If that's the case, I don't fault them for it. It's a bit annoying... but I get the business decision.
Bob P., you're a class act. I appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully respond to some of our concerns and questions. Some of us are frustrated about the Mac platform - but it's still a radically valuable product for our ministries. Keep up the good work and hopefully revenue objectives will soon line up with feature parity on the Mac platform
. Just so you know, I didn't consider switching to the Mac an option until you released Logos for the Mac... Logos was a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for me to switch from Windows to the Mac. I still use both platforms, but I'd say I'm now 90% Mac.Blessings - jp
JP:
I agree with you... I will stop responding to Super Tramp, because he is illogical in this thread, and tends to beat the "I love Logos" drum senselessly. (I love them too)
I hear Bob repeatably say how difficult it is to hire Mac Developers but yet he was able to find and allocate Mac Developers to Proclaim.
This is why I am frustrated!
0 -
John Fidel said:
This is not personal or intended to be an attack on you in anyway. I am just offering constructive advise.
John Fidel said:However, there are times when you cannot answer questions that require an answer from Logos employees.
This question does not "REQUIRE" an answer. When MJD or you or any critic shows me your stock in Logos, then I would agree you can demand an answer from the CEO concerning his business decisions. Or for that matter, the reasons people part ways from Logos.
Every time somebody we like separates from Logos, a bunch of people demand to know why and call for a reinstatement, as if the dearly departed wants to stick around. (I won't list names because it would resurrect all the second guessing and accusations all over again.)
This isn't about me at all. But if you will give Joe Miller (A former
MVP and, up to recently, a Logos employee) a standing in expressing his
personal views in the forums, I think it would be more fair-minded of
you not to show me the door. My views are those of an individual who has also made a large investment in Logos' future.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
[8] "The Logical Song" by Supertramp [8]
When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful, a miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily, oh joyfully, oh playfully watching me.
But then they sent me away to teach me how to be sensible, logical, oh responsible, practical.
And then they showed me a world where I could be so dependable, oh clinical, oh intellectual, cynical.
There are times when all the world's asleep, the questions run too deep for such a simple man.
Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned I know it sounds absurd but please tell me who I am
I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical, criminal.
Won't you sign up your name, we'd like to feel you're acceptable, respectable, oh presentable, a vegetable!
Oh Take it take it yeah! ....... Who knows who's so logical.If logical is to tear down those you love in public, then it is the last thing I want to be. If a husband discovers his wife is not a perfect person he would help her more by not demeaning her in public. There are a lot of marriage counseling books in the Pastor Appreciation Month specials that say the same thing. The specials expire Friday, November 4th.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Just a quick post :
1. Not sure "how" one can say Logos is leading the way in Mac Biblesoftware. There are other companies, been doing Mac longer, and have very, very few problems with base code, if they were on mac earlier, one could make a case for them leading.
2. Reviews in the Mac side of things do not show Logos to be leading "other than" they have all the resources, they do some things different, had some reports before others, others had some reports before them. To be called leading, someone has to be following, not sure it is a race, but more of people making products, to do certain things, in ways they think people will buy.
3. Logos is getting better in Mac area. started off rough, is better, but still rough.
4. Suggestion is to get software stable across platforms and specs it is stated to run well on, then, and only then, start working towards feature parity. ( if the truck does not run well, do not load extra weight in it and give it a longer, steeper hill to pull the load up).
5. One of the reasons I mentioned Logos as a "company" ( In another thread, caught flack-smile), not a ministry/non-profit is because Logos used wise "for profit company" decisions early on to go out and try to tie up as many resources as possible. With a well accepted platform ( windows) and many resources, they sold well, which then made them a primary sales resource for publishers. This was just good marketing strategy ( like the app store for the iPhone was, people learned to write apps for where the buyers were). This marketing strategy also slowed down competitors in the market, many of who had just as capable software, but were out marketed.
My point is there is a difference in "software" and "Marketing" but success is often dependent on both, especially in the consumer area's.
6. The above is why I was trying to approach my examples from the perspective of business, value, and responsibility. No where else in business do I find as many people that are willing to make excuses for products that do not perform as expected as I do in the field of "Biblesoftware", no matter if it is Logos, Bibleworks, Biblesoft, Accordance or whoever.
For the most part, it is a strange sociological sub-set, probably based in the fact the software becomes "personal". You also see this in the Mac world to some extent, in the Windows world to some extent, but never in the Air Conditioning world by the consumer, not in the Refrigerator, not in tires, not in socks, not in restaurants , roofing etc.
Thus, no matter what is said here, no matter how it is said, it is going to be personalized because the comments are taken personally, because the product has become personal for many of us, we even say things like: I love Logos, it is so helpful. ( never hear people exclaiming the greatness of socks with holes in them-smile)
Logos, or Bibleworks, or Accordance etc. are products, made by companies, just like Mac's, Hp's etc. They cannot love us, they are products, pure and simple, we do best to see them that way. They are made by people who can and do "love" their work, designs and art forms , vocations, but these things are just that, things, products, devices.
I for one, am not married to any of them. I was a "windows guy" until it no longer "served me" well, then I changed to Macs and, if and when they no longer "serve me" well, I will move to whatever tool is available that will serve my needs, thats what they are for, to serve my needs, nothing more.
I will give logos some time to see if they can fix the issues so that this "product" is capable of "serving my needs". I have need of many of the resources ( titles) Logos has the rights too. I don't need most of the fancy guides Logos has, can get that work done with ease on just about any platform available, can do much of it pretty quickly by hand. ( Yep, still know how to use my regular library tools), what I need is heavily searchable availability to the library resources that are tied to Logos.I need to be able to find things in books that are reference books for me. If I cannot get that, then it is nothing personal, has nothing to do with the character of Bob ( seems like a really nice guy by the way) it simply has to do with a product that does not meet my needs. ( I am not mad at Chevy because I own a Ford, the Ford fit my needs better, next time, it might be Chevy)
A lot of the discussions here have gotten "tense" ( including my own-my apologies ) because we/I forget this is just simply a product, it either works or it does not, people are getting value, or they are not, it's a highly subjective subject and I need to understand some are having it great, and that's value to them. By the same token, some are not, we need to understand they feel shorted.
But it's just a product folks, just a product.
0
