How Long Before Mac Developers Will be Allowed to Catch Up to Windows version?

I am writing in hopes that Logos will start to give some serious attention to slow down adding new features and try to get the existing ones working properly.

For a long time, I have reported that some of the most basic functions just don't work.

For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them. Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this.

Even more significant is that the Passage List feature is virtually useless for teaching because section titles are missing and do not appear in the Mac version (as far as I know, the Windows version does work properly). Why won't Logos allow developers to prioritize the fixing of critical regressions?

There is a long list of items that are simply inferior on the Mac version... see here. The current list includes

PC Notes have more capabilities than Mac, includingautomatic hyperlinking of scripture in notes and right click to Note item. Logos 4.3 added keyboard shortcuts and bullet usability, but still needs more improvement; Logos User Voice suggestion =>Rework notes function – in one or multiple phasesincludes: “Implement parity for Mac version”; plus a specific Logos User Voice suggestion => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning
Changes promised for Logos 4.5 Beta, Note positioning on Mac included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
PC has more font size options: Program Scaling plus font slider adjustment in Bible Word Study, Biblical People, Biblical Places, Biblical Things, Cited By, Collections, Copy Bible Verses, Exegetical Guide, Explorer, Favorites, History, Information, Passage Analysis, Passage Guide, Passage List, Personal Books, Power Lookup, Program Settings, Pronunciation, Reading Lists, Reading Plan, Search, and Text Comparison. Specific Logos User Voice suggestion => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders, using new text slider in Logos 4.5 Beta 1Basic and Bible searches may hang program.
PC Highlighting can create style then choose color that does not work on Mac plus editing new Mac style shows color missing along with Bugs languishing for 7-months... and Bug: Create/Edit Highlighting Style – cannot click on “choose a file ...”, Mac style color issue fixed in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
PC Guides (Exegetical, Passage) have Stop button while Guide is populating, lacking on Mac
PC Passage List has drag and drop option to change verse order plus compact view to show verse references without text along with ability to insert Heading, Mac lacks drap and drop, always displays full view and lacks Insert Heading
PC Morph Search Analysis group by Lemma shows Lemma in summary lines, Mac does not
PC Bible Word Study (BWS) has click on hebrew lemma option to change numbered lemma’s, need workaround for Mac.
PC Bible Search with Grid display can hover mouse over grid box to display Bible verse in a pop-up. PC mouse pointer changes to hand over Bible version header; both PC and Mac can click Bible version header to change text displayed in Grid.
PC Bibliography works, planned for future Mac release, included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
PC Cited By tool has right click heading option to Expand, Expand All, or Collapse All, missing on Mac
PC Collections can drag and drop from Open menu into (+) these Resources and (-) these Resources, fix promised in Logos 4.5 Beta, included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
PC Copy Bible Verses can specify styles for Copy and Paste into Word that does not work on Mac
PC Home Page customization has drag and drop option to change order of display (can sync to Mac via Logos servers).
PC Read Aloud uses Text to Speech system speed preferences, but Mac always uses same speed
PC Resource download(s) can be done in one session, but Mac needs many restarts, improved in 4.3 Beta 11, still an issue in 4.3 Release Candidate 1
PC Scrolling in search results can be done using arrow keys on keyboard, not usable on Mac
PC Search results has right click expand/collapse options plus larger clickable area for article expand/collapse than Mac
PC Text Comparison can select and copy individual verses, but Mac needs workaround using Print/Export
PC Timelines has styles menu to change timeline appearance, not yet implemented on Mac
PC has middle mouse clicks that do not work on Mac(click middle mouse button to close a resource)

Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.

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Comments

Patrick S.

Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? [H]

John Fidel

Joe,

I appreciate your questioning the progress on L4 Mac disparity with L4 Win. Could Logos 4.4 address this? As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out. Realizing priorities, I think at this point, many L4 Mac users would be willing to fall one step behind L4 Win in terms of new features, just to have all the existing differences properly addressed. Most disappointments with L4 Mac in the forums generally fall within this area.

Thanks for addressing this. You have my support in this endeavor.

JT (alabama24)

Could Logos 4.4 address this?

There will not be a 4.4 release. Currently 4.5 is in beta.

Todd Phillips

try to get the existing ones working properly.

[Y]

There is a long list of items that are simply inferior on the Mac version... see here.

This is why I hesitate to promote Logos to my Mac-using friends.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them. Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this.

Logos 4.5 Beta 4 on Windows allows sub-folders in Favorites to be arranged by dragging and dropping while Logos 4.5 Beta 4 on Mac needs a workaround:

Prefix book name with Logos internal number (e.g. 61 Matthew, 64 John, ...), then right click on 61 Matthew => Sort by name.
Create new folder, then drag sub-folders to new folder one at a time in desired order
Use Logos 4 Windows to arrange sub-folders, then sync to Logos 4 Mac.

Updated wiki Feature Parity – Mac needs many improvements (added link to this thread).

Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.

Logos User Voice voting is showing Logos 4 Mac Enhancements more desired than all Feature Parity suggestions. Also included couple more suggestions mentioned in thread => Logos 4 Mac Consensus for Improvement Priorities

# 19 => Logos 4 Mac Enhancements with 174 votes, a possible follow-up to Suggestion for something special for the L4 Mac

# 39 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC with 64 votes

# 47 => Floating window layouts with 54 votes

# 71 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning with 25 votes

# 77 => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness with 23 votes

# 100 => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders with 13 votes

# 193 => Please add Logos 4 Program Settings with 4 votes

Note: Logos User Voice currently has 409 suggestions open for voting.

Keep Smiling [:)]

tjebme

[Y][Y]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

A poster on one of the other threads made a good point:

Mac's are still a very small part of Logos Sales, thus, as such a small marketshare footprint, I doubt we are going to see much improvement in the speed of changes.

John Fidel

Rusty,

You have not been using Logos very long I do not believe. My impression, having used the software for a long time (the early 90's), is that they will get these things fixed and up to speed sooner rather than later. They have moved L4 Mac along at a good pace since the Alpha. I have confidence in the those programing and directing the efforts of the company.

Please do not take my comments as condescending, as that is not my intent. You have a right to your opinion as I do mine.

MJD

Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?

I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...[^o)]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

Agreed MJD.

I might add: I find it "odd" to hear a company say they cannot "find" osx software designers that are willing to relocate. This does not seem to be a problem for other Osx based companies, and, I know of many that do not even require moving to work with code.

Matthew C Jones

Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...

I don't. I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)

added: I am also aware of several MVPs who have publicly said some rather surprising things. And a few incidents of honest acknowledgement by Logos employees concerning bugs and how they will deal with them, or why a fix will be delayed. At least there is dialogue and some progress.

Matthew C Jones

Agreed MJD. I might add: I find it "odd" to hear a company say they cannot "find" osx software designers that are willing to relocate. This does not seem to be a problem for other Osx based companies, and, I know of many that do not even require moving to work with code.

That is actually part of the problem. There are quite a few people who are willing to telecommute. Logos specifically states that all employment positions require moving to Bellingham (unless the job is regional.)

Most companies that lead their fields do so because they will only hire the cream of the crop. The pharmaceutical companies, engineering & architectural firms, chemical and aerospace industries send out "head-hunters" to recruit the top dozen students from the top dozen universities. (They will also try to lure them away from other companies with lucrative offers.) The rest of the graduating classes must go searching for jobs. Logos is the leading Bible software company and not only requires software engineering expertise, but knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Bible, ministry, theology, marketing and multiple linguistic abilities. They also require some experience in the field the applicant is applying for. It must be difficult to find knowledge and experience in a qualified applicant who is able to pick up and move to Bellingham without disrupting an established family life. I think we will all agree it is desirable for Logos to hire the cream of the crop. That narrows the field considerably.

Mike S.

The continued lack of "catch-up" for the mac version leads me to believe Logos thinks it is "good enough" to win the sale (a very windows/microsoft way of thinking).

Logos should be assured that they will slowly bleed out that revenue and see a continued drop in sales and market share. I've already stopped using Logos for anything but "go to" resources that are only found in Logos. I'm spending my money elsewhere because I no longer trust that:

a. Logos is committed to attaining key feature parity with the mac version
b. Logos is committed to the OS/IOS platform long term

I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

I totally get that it's hard to get "mac" developers to relocate to a part of the country where MS is deeply rooted and dominant. No shocker there; for the most part you're either going to find dabblers or inexperienced people who want to build up their resume. There's typically a few ways around this: first, build a satellite office in an area where it's much easier to hire the skill set and invest in telepresence & collaborative tools/methods (HUGE change for Logos, not likely, nor possibly wise), two, pay a steep premium to get the same experience/level of skill you have for other platforms and irritate your loyal dev team (creates all kinds of other problems), and finally... go slow, build as you are able and hope you don't fall too far behind (I didn't forget the contractor approach, just never works with something as monolithic and fast-moving as Logos, they learned that the hard way).

Clearly they've chosen the "slow and steady wins the race" approach. A wise business decision, but maybe not the best for those of us stubborn mac users.

Bye for now!

J.R. Miller

Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?

I no longer work for Logos and I had not realized my Logos badge was not removed yet.

I am, however, doing regional training independently in Southern California. The problems on the current state of the software make it very difficult to demonstrate and train Logos using my Mac. The software works fine for my personal study because I can work around the numerous bugs, regressions, and slowness, but in its current state the Mac version is an inferior product for using in training situations. As a full time Mac user, I would like to see this rectified.

J.R. Miller

As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out.

I submit bug reports like everyone else and have no idea regarding timetable. The three issues I pointed out in my first post are ones I have reported over many many many cycles and all I am told is, "they are known issues and are on the list." New features get added, but from my perspective little effort is put into making the existing ones work properly

Thanks for addressing this. You have my support in this endeavor.

I am in the same boat as everyone else... a long time user for almost 18 years that wants the software to work for me and not against me [Y]

Patrick S.

Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?

I no longer work for Logos and I had not realized my Logos badge was not removed yet.

Is now I see [;)]

As a full time Mac user, I would like to see this rectified.

Amen brother! [Y]

Bob Pritchett

Sigh.

There's no conspiracy here. Yes, we make more money from Windows sales. But Mac is growing fast, and that may flip sometime in the near future. We did, however, have about 17 years head-start on the Windows side. So unless we make the Mac team 3-4 times larger than the Windows team, it'll be a bit behind.

To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly. Our iOS platform support is excellent and keeps advancing; we don't even have a Windows Phone version. And Proclaim (which is the first app we wrote that didn't have 17 years of Windows history already) has been in near lock-step parity all along the way.

For what it's worth, the client-side Mac team is (at my last inquiry) larger than the Windows team.

Unfortunately, according to the developers -- including the Mac devs! -- coding on the Mac is much more difficult than on Windows. (If you disagree, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just reporting what I'm told, and have experienced.) The tools are not as mature and we don't have access to all the same platform features. So a feature like "Program Scaling" is a pain. This is a feature we never had in Logos 3, and only put in Logos 4 for Windows because WPF (the Windows display platform) basically gave it to us for free. It's just a couple of lines of code, because WPF handles it all. On the Mac is much more complicated, because the Mac display system doesn't handle "global scaling" the same way.

This is a consequence of doing the Mac version after Windows. If we'd started dual platform this feature would have been trivial to have in perfect parity: we would not have chosen to implement it on either platform. :-)

(In the same way, we used a data grid control on Windows that wasn't available on the Mac, where many features have needed a lot more code to re-create that functionality. This is one of the few third-party components we've used, but it is a significant piece of code. The Mac simply doesn't have the components / dev-tools infrastructure that Windows does.)

We're trying hard. We are re-writing some components to be cross-platform, instead of depending on underlying OS implementations that work differently. We are planning to open a satellite development office near Phoenix, AZ in the next few months to get access to a different and larger labor pool.

And I'll commit right here and now to hire the next 5 qualified Mac developers you send my way. :-)

Hmm... what about a new forum rule, where you can't complain about the Mac port until you have forwarded a development candidate? Doesn't everybody know at least one software developer? One smart person who could study software development?

-- Bob

PS Does it show my commitment that I'm reading the Steve Jobs biography?

MJ. Smith

PS Does it show my commitment that I'm reading the Steve Jobs biography?

This is sooooooo tempting ... I give in ... Does it also mean we can expect more Buddhist resources?[:D]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

Dear Bob: Reading the biography means different things to different people, however, from a leaders position and, one in your field, I would think there are many reasons to read the book, many insights to be gained, ideas to think on, some to reject etc.

Next: I would well imagine Osx would be challenging for people used to writing code for windows and used to windows tools.

I have also heard from many who have written primarily from Osx who find writing for windows and using those tolls, to be very frustrating.

Point: Many contemplatives will tell you that whatever spiritual discipline one begin's in will probably remain their main point of reference all their life. Thus is one began Benedictine, that discipline will be part of their life for their whole life, if one began Celtic, same thing, so forth and so on.

I tend to think this is probably true with code as well, the things people cut their teeth in, the one they get comfortable with, the one they "think" spatially, is the one that they are most proficient in.

There are several companies I know of that the code writers there speak of windows code and the tools being slow, complicated and a bit of a pain.

I also know many companies that write for Osx do so as proficiently as any windows based company writes code.

It is probably very difficult having both and trying to have both work together to try and do things that are best for both codes- In that, I certainly appreciate the difficulty you and your staff face.

iOS seems to be working well for you/us, mine has not crashed even once, read on it daily, nightly and, enjoy it. The code stays out of the way, the device disappears into the work/reading I am doing- well done.

Sadly, I can get more work done on my iOS devices with Logos, than I can my Mac.

I hope you find the code writers you need.

I hope your writers will concentrate on getting what you have working with stability , before moving on to more additions.

In my opinion, it is still better to work on one thing, do it well, finish it, then move to the next, than it is to try too many things at once. But of course, that's just my opinion-smile.

Lastly, I for one appreciate your interaction here ( and your sense of humor ), it does help knowing someone in/with authority is at least reading, taking in the different situations, getting the "snapshots" that Forums provide of the larger picture.

Please know that, contrary to some thinking, I do not believe my posts or those of others are intended as simply griping, complaining , though it may well seem as such.

Mine are simply the frustrations of a small Parish Pastor with limited financial resources, trying to make the best use of the funds he can muster.

Thanks again for your interaction, it has not fixed the crashing-smile- but it is nice to know you care enough to look in on the situation.

Grace and Peace,

Rusty+

MJD

Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos?
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...

I don't. I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)

Super Tramp... My suspicions were confirmed...[Y] Joe no longer works for the company!

MJD

To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly. Our iOS platform support is excellent and keeps advancing; we don't even have a Windows Phone version. And Proclaim (which is the first app we wrote that didn't have 17 years of Windows history already) has been in near lock-step parity all along the way.

Bob,

You opened this discussion up by mentioning Proclaim...

Why would you use valuable Mac programers[8-)], which you say are almost impossible to find on developing a new software (i.e. Proclaim) when you don't have all of the bugs[sn] worked out of the Mac L4 platform?

Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?

Matthew C Jones

Why would you use valuable Mac programers, which you say are almost impossible to find on developing a new software (i.e. Proclaim) when you don't have all of the bugs worked out of the Mac L4 platform?

You must have missed my analogy of Spring cleaning. If you are waiting on events beyond your control to fall in place on one project, it does not mean progress in other areas should not be attempted.

Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?

I'm not convinced the CEO owes any explanation or apologies for being a multi-tasking creative genius. He has certainly taken Logos a lot further than any of us could.

MJ. Smith

I tend to think this is probably true with code as well, the things people cut their teeth in, the one they get comfortable with, the one they "think" spatially, is the one that they are most proficient in.

However, it is also true that particular platforms have particular strengths and weaknesses. I once worked on a very obscure computer made by Reality. One requirement for being trained on the equipment was that you had experience on something other than IBM. The truth is that the logical patterns an excellent programmer has at their disposal are platform independent. The tools they have to implement that pattern is a major element in the speed with which a feature can be developed. Competent programmers are easy to come by; if you want to spread into truly new solutions you need superb programmers - and they can be hard to find.

My favorite hire - in academic administrative computing on Unisys and COBOL, I hired a programmer whose experience was entirely on CAT scan equipment in C+. He was the key in our first web based administrative application on Linux in Java. The remainder of the team? Unisys-COBOL, IBM-COBOL, track star with no experience and self-taught C+. The project came in on time and within budget. Moral: When Bob says it is partially the tools, believe him. Who knows - when he's out of school I might recommend my grandson to Bob. My grandson is already helping with a web "front end" to Logos.[:D]

David Mitchell

Who knows - when he's out of school I might recommend my grandson to Bob. My grandson is already helping with a web "front end" to Logos.

Why would you wait for him to finish school? Working at Logos provides an excellent education, and it pays better, too. [:D]

MJD

Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?

I'm not convinced the CEO owes any explanation or apologies for being a multi-tasking creative genius. He has certainly taken Logos a lot further than any of us could.

This question was asked specifically to Bob.

I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.[^o)]

Secondly, I wasn't trying to convince you. This was directed towards Bob, and I would love hear Bob's response on why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac), when there is so many shortcomings as described by Joe a recent employee of Logos (Joe's post has caused me serious concern). Before a new program (Proclaim) was launched.

Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything. I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!

Lastly,

I know Bob is talented, smart, etc., etc., what I would like to know is why a new project was started at Logos prior to fixing an existing project. There are limited resources, and to allocate Mac Developers to Proclaim, while lacking developers for Logos 4 repairs causes me concerns???

I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob. Thank You.

MJD

Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.

[*]This is why I addressed Bob in the forum. Joe who is a former Logos employee asked for users to "show an interest" in order to get some resolution.

MJD

As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out.
I submit bug reports like everyone else and have no idea regarding timetable. The three issues I pointed out in my first post are ones I have reported over many many many cycles and all I am told is, "they are known issues and are on the list." New features get added, but from my perspective little effort is put into making the existing ones work properly

Joe,

As a long time Logos user, and former employee this must be frustrating? I am with you, I don't understand their logic either. Logos knew the availability of qualified Mac developers was virtually non-existent. Why would they spread their developers out even thinner with a new product launch?

I went to the Logos site and looked at the jobs section. Maybe, Logos should give strong consideration to re-thinking there requirement to relocate since it is so difficult to get developers.[I]

"This position is at our offices in the wonderful city of Bellingham,
Washington. We are sorry, but we will not be considering applications
for remote employment or telecommuting."

Mike Bloomfield

A poster on one of the other threads made a good point:

Mac's are still a very small part of Logos Sales, thus, as such a small marketshare footprint, I doubt we are going to see much improvement in the speed of changes.

I sure hope that's not their way of thinking. Logos claims there is no Mac or Windows version because the software is "multi-platform". I've tried it on both OSes and although the core Logos 4 engine is the same, there are very obvious differences in functionality and the Mac version is way behind. Someone needs to crack the whip because there are a lot more Mac users out there. Besides, the user minority shouldn't be looked down on as unimportant. As a Mac user I don't want the crumbs and if I'm going to get the crumbs why am I paying the price of a full platter? The software and book bundles are not cheap. If I pay the same as a windows user, I should get the same features as the windows user.

As far as Logos sales and market share goes, I hope Logos is doing this for the right reasons and not for the $$$$. I'm sure their intent is to further the gospel and aid in spiritual growth through better bible study tools. Their tools are excellent, but let's have some equality. If the Mac version is behind, make the effort to get it right.[:D]

J.R. Miller

For a long time, I have reported that some of the most basic functions just don't work.

For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them. Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this...

Even more significant is that the Passage List feature is virtually useless for teaching because section titles are missing and do not appear in the Mac version (as far as I know, the Windows version does work properly)...

I am pleased to find that both of these bugs/regressions were fixed in 4.5. Thanks. On the downside, the Headers in the Passage list were fixed, but now it does not display multiple translations properly. I am not sure who runs quality control, but significant feature regressions are being missed.